English Mysteries Club discussion

Here is the thread to discuss anything you like about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and his books. Our member Adrian will be hosting this thread :)

(If you're going into specifics about a plot though, please use spoiler tags!)

So firstly thanks to Jean for giving me the opportunity to wax lyrical about one of my all time favourite authors.
So let's digress. Here in the UK we have a long running (since 1972) quiz program on TV called "Mastermind". I don't know if it has been exported to other countries so maybe only us Brits know it, I don't know. Anyway its based on the premiss that 4 or 5 individuals have 2 minutes of questions on the specialist subject they have nominated, and then 90 seconds on general knowledge (or something like that). And obviously the person with the highest score and the least number of passes wins. Anyway thru a series of heats etc etc, at the end of each year we ended up with a very intelligent and savvy person winning for that year.
So what has this got to do with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle , well I used to do, and still do a lot of quizzing, and had this dream that I would one day go on "Mastermind", and my specialist subject would have been the Sherlock Holmes novels of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (or The Carry On films (another British institution) - thoughts for another day maybe)

So that brings us to this thread, which I hope people will join in with, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle . creator of Sherlock Holmes but also of Professor Challenger.

Anyway any thoughts you have on my essay above or Conan Doyle or Holmes, share them with me, share them with the group, lets gets this thread moving :)

I have read all of the Sherlock Holmes novels and stories, also The Lost World, which I enjoyed very much. I've also read The White Company, a meticuously researched historical novel which starts slowly but builds to a dramatic ending.

Great intro Adrian! My specialist subject would be Charles Dickens - but you have to be very brave to go on that programme!

I've often thought I'd like to read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "other works" but in fact the only ones I know apart from Sherlock Holmes are Tales of Terror and Mystery - which are really quite similar! I loved the film of The Lost World, but haven't read the book.

Which do you prefer Adrian, the Sherlock Holmes short stories, or the novels?

Rosemarie wrote: "I have read all of the Sherlock Holmes novels and stories, also The Lost World, which I enjoyed very much. I've also read The White Company, a meticuously researched historical novel which starts s..."

Well its good to hear that there are lots of people who have read more than just the Holmes stories, but tell me Rosemarie, what is your favourite Doyle or even Holmes story ?

For the novels, I like The Sign of Four. It is too hard to pick a short story!

Bionic Jean wrote: "Great intro Adrian! My specialist subject would be Charles Dickens - but you have to be very brave to go on that programme!

I've often thought I'd like to read Sir [author:Arthur ..."

Having seen some of your reviews Jean, I am not surprised you would pick Dickens.

Hmm, which do I prefer, Doyle's short stories or the novels ? Thats a really good question, they both have their merits. Some of the short stories are marvellous and there are really only 4 novels, all of which are good.
It would be good to set up some sort of buddy read for all the Conan Doyle Holmes books. Maybe I'll propose it

Rosemarie wrote: "For the novels, I like The Sign of Four. It is too hard to pick a short story!"

That is I think my favourite as well Rosemarie, great story building and characters, and some superb detecting by Sherlock.

Rita wrote: "My favorite has always been The Hound of the Baskervilles. They did a very interesting twist on that story in Sherlock. I want that show back but I know that's very unlikely considering..."

It was a good twist, I agree Rita.

As to another series, one of the writers, Mark Gatiss, has said there may be another series now that their TV series Dracula has been filmed and released.

Rita wrote: "I did a group read in another group on The White Company by Arthur Conan Doyle but I dropped out before I finished it. Too much "forsoothery" as another reader brought up. ..."

I must admit I've never read The White Company, although I have read quite a few of his non Sherlock books.

So people have mentioned obviously the Benedict Cumberbatch modern version of Sherlock, but who else do people like as Sherlock?

I've never been shy in saying that to me Joan Hickson is Miss Marple and that David Suchet is Hercule Poirot, so to continue the magic trio, to me Jeremy Brett is Sherlock Holmes.

A contentious statement I admit ha ha

I agree. Jeremy Brett is Sherlock Holmes!

Rosemarie wrote: "I agree. Jeremy Brett is Sherlock Holmes!"

So that's two-nil to us !!

Rita wrote: "I have the full set of the Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes stories. He is the epitome of Sherlock Holmes."

That makes 3-0 and rising.

I think it is actually quite universally acknowledged that he was the best, in fact he got so engrossed in the part that ultimately it contributed to/played a part in his death.

Yes, that was terribly tragic. I think he was a manic depressive. I agree with all your actor choices Adrian :)

I prefer the short stories to the novels - they are so inventive! I don't think anyone had a better first collection of short stories :)

Thanks Adrian, yes I've reviewed all Dickens's novels - and started on the Sherlock Holmes short stories - but it will take a while. There are 56 of 'em!

I think Dickens would have enjoyed reading Sherlock Holmes. His later novels feature quite a few mysteries, and there are signs he was moving in that direction himself.

Adrian wrote: "So people have mentioned obviously the Benedict Cumberbatch modern version of Sherlock, but who else do people like as Sherlock?

I've never been shy in saying that to me Joan Hickson is Miss Marpl..."

Agree, agree and agree!

As for the Cumberbatch Holmes - I watched the first season out of curiosity. In the end, I felt it was an uneasy combination of trying to remain true to the books while trying to modernize and reinvent Holmes' character. I prefer the Brett adaptations!

Jean, I also prefer the short stories. Doyle was quite skilled in the plots and also in developing the characters quickly.

Leslie wrote: "As for the Cumberbatch Holmes - I watched the first season out of curiosity. In the end, I felt it was an uneasy combination ..."

Ah, I've found a point on which we disagree Leslie! (I had begun to think we thought alike for everything!) I do enjoy the Benedict Cumberbatch Sherlock Holmes episodes, but on their own terms as separate from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's creation.

Some films/dramas based on a novel or series, move so far away that they seem to need to be assessed separately. I feel this about the "Father Brown" episodes, and all Peter Jackson's Middle-earth films, which are more like homages to Tolkien than true adaptations.

Adrian wrote: "who else do people like as Sherlock?...."

There have been so many, haven't there? But nobody has mentioned BBC Radio yet.

Again, several actors have played the part in this medium, but the one who stands head and shoulders above the rest (for me) is Clive Merrison. His voice is simply perfect! Like Jeremy Brett for TV, he has acted in all the complete short stories and novels over several years. In fact, (although I may be danger of being lynched here), I think these episodes are even better than the TV ones! They are very wittily adapted by Bert Coules, who has written and adapted a lot for radio.

I wonder whether the only reason Clive Merrison never played the part of Sherlock Holmes on film/TV is because he's quite short. What a shame :(

Bionic Jean wrote: "I do enjoy the Benedict Cumberbatch Sherlock Holmes episodes, but on their own terms as separate from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's creation. ..."

I have to agree, as Sherlock Holmes, no, but as a detective series starring someone whose name is Sherlock, its enjoyable.

I read somewhere that Agatha Christie should have stuck to novels and Arthur Conan Doyle should have stuck to short stories. Now you could argue that that's a bit harsh, given that they are both such wonderful authors. On the other hand I must say I don't read AC short stories any more because I've generally not enjoyed them. ACD on the other hand is absolutely brilliant at short stories and I enjoy those more than his full length novels.

Here's a bit of trivia for you...
According to Lit Hub Weekly, 7th March was an anniversary relating to Sherlock Holmes:
"TODAY: In 1905, Arthur Conan Doyle publishes The Return of Sherlock Holmes in London after public pressure to revive his famous detective."

Which Sherlock Holmes short stories would Arthur Conan Doyle himself have picked as his favourites?

There's an interesting article on Lit Hub here about this:
https://lithub.com/the-12-best-sherlo...

In March of 1927, just before the final volume of Sherlock Holmes stories, The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes, was due to be published in book form, the Strand introduced a competition for its readers. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle himself would select the very best (that is, his own favorite) Holmes stories, and whichever fan guessed the author’s list “most nearly” would win £100 and an autographed copy of Conan Doyle’s Memories and Adventures. “It is as a little test of the opinion of the public that I inaugurate the small competition announced here,” Conan Doyle wrote in the Strand. “I have drawn up a list of the twelve short stories contained in the four published volumes [that is, excepting The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes, for reasons he explains in full later on] which I consider to be the best, and I should like to know to what extent my choice agrees with that of Strand readers. I have left my list in a sealed envelope with the Editor of the Strand.”

Can you guess which ones he picked?

His list is given further down in the same article.

By the way, wasn't £100 quite a lot of money in the 1920s? Especially just for a book competition?

Sue wrote: "Which Sherlock Holmes short stories would Arthur Conan Doyle himself have picked as his favourites?

There's an interesting article on Lit Hub here about this:
https://lithub.com/the-12-best-sherlo..."

Excellent article Sue, and I must admit I agree with about 10 of the 12 haha. Who am I to argue with Sir Arthur ?!?

Sue wrote: "I read somewhere that Agatha Christie should have stuck to novels and Arthur Conan Doyle should have stuck to short stories. Now you could argue that that's a bit harsh, given that they are both su..."

As you say that seems a bit harsh Sue. I think it is generally correct but I still personally enjoy AC short stories, especially the Miss Marple ones, and I actually like The Sign of Four and The Hound of the Baskervilles 😊

Sue wrote: "I read somewhere that Agatha Christie should have stuck to novels and Arthur Conan Doyle should have stuck to short stories. Now you could argue that that's a bit harsh, given that they are both su..."

I'm of the same mind as Adrian. It's a bit overstated but generally true! Witness for the Prosecution by Agatha Christie is one of the exceptions, but I'm struggling to find a "bad" Sherlock Holmes short story. Plus I seem to remember the novel The Valley of Fear didn't really grab me.

£1 (one pound) in 1927 is now apparently worth £63.24 in today's money, so yes, £100 then would be worth the huge sum of £6324! Great article, thanks Sue. Is the prize still up for grabs? I could concur with that list, and his own top three would probably have been mine too :)

Adrian, which collection do you like best? I think I like his first The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes the most :)

Bionic Jean wrote: "Adrian, which collection do you like best? I think I like his first The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes the most :)..."

Oh gosh Jean, thats a tough one. There are some great short stories in "Adventures", but, I think I have to go with The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes. Silver Blaze, Musgrave Ritual, Resident Patient, Greek Interpreter and of course Final Problem.

Now you're making me waver ... perhaps he'd really got into his stride by then :)

Bionic Jean wrote: "Now you're making me waver ... perhaps he'd really got into his stride by then :)"

Ha ha. I just think Silver Blaze and the Final Problem are shining examples of a short detective story, and then if you add in some of the others, I just think it is probably the book of short stories I would recommend as to how it "should be done".

I've just started to watch a Basil Rathbone film of Sherlock Holmes, made in 1942 and set in World War II ! It's quite entertaining but I wonder what people think of Sherlock Holmes spin-off stories.

Or would you rather not talk about that here, Adrian?

I'm not very far in yet Rita, but yes, Dr Watson is a bit overplayed :(

Bionic Jean wrote: "I've just started to watch a Basil Rathbone film of Sherlock Holmes, made in 1942 and set in World War II ! It's quite entertaining but I wonder what people think of Sherlock Holmes spin-off storie..."

Hey I'm happy to discuss anything remotely Holmesian.

I have a big selection of Holmes DVDs myself, from Basil Rathbone (About a dozen films), Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing, Patrick Macnee, Tom Baker, Peter Cook, Michael Caine, Benedict Cumberbact to Robert Downey Jr. All different but all in their own ways enjoyable.

All that said, I have to admit they did really make Watson look a fool in those Rathbone films, poor old Nigel Bruce.

Rita wrote: "I have the complete DVD set of Jeremy Brett as Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot DVDs starring David Suchet."

So do I Rita, they are both amongst my favourite and most treasured DVDs in my library, oh and the Miss Marple (Joan Hickson) DVDs.

So continuing the theme, of Actors playing Sherlock, what do people think about Robert Downey Jr playing the great man ??

I also have the Poirot DVDs, but these days I stream both Poirot and Brett’s Sherlock through my BritBox subscription. There is no question-it shouldn’t even be up for debate-Jeremy Brett is THE definitive Sherlock.

Rita wrote: "I was not impressed."

In a way I am a little ambivalent, they were fun films, typical Hollywood, but not a great deal to do with Sherlock.

Barbara wrote: "I also have the Poirot DVDs, but these days I stream both Poirot and Brett’s Sherlock through my BritBox subscription. There is no question-it shouldn’t even be up for debate-Jeremy Brett is THE de..."

Maybe I should look at Britbox, although that said , I have like you Barbara the DVDs for a number of British produced detective series.

And yes I have to agree Jeremy is THE sherlock.

I agree, he's the most authentic, but enjoy other interpretations too, such as that by Robert Downey Jr. The CGI of Victorian London in the first film was most impressive. Also the music, the style of which they copied for the TV series with Benedict Cumberbatch, which was broadcast a little later. That was original in its own way though, eg., the thoughts of Sherlock Holmes appearing in type overlaid on the screen.

Bionic Jean wrote: "I agree, he's the most authentic, but enjoy other interpretations too, such as that by Robert Downey Jr. The CGI of Victorian London in the first film was most impressive. Also the music, the style..."

Yes the CGI of Victorian London was wonderful, but it was still I feel an American Sherlock (no disrespect to our American Cousins, just that Sherlock is quintessentially British.)
And again I like the words/ text in The Cumberbatch version, and I like the modern updated stories, but again it's not really Sherlock.
In some ways Basil Rathbone's Sherlock is nearer to Conan Doyles writing I feel, even with the dopey Nigel Bruce Watson.
(to make it clear, I mean he's closer than Robert Downey Jr or Ben Cumberbatch), I still think Jeremy Brett is, well he was Sherlock

He's very austere, isn't he?

Bionic Jean wrote: "He's very austere, isn't he?"

Yes I suppose so, thinking about it , yes.

So , calling all Sherlock Holmes fans, would anyone be interested in a long term buddy read, of all of Doyle's Holmes books ? It won't be too full on as I already have a number of other commitments, but if people are interested I'd be more than happy to run as well as obviously participating.

I like this idea Adrian, and since most are short story collections, I'll definitely join in now and then :)

Adrian wrote: "So , calling all Sherlock Holmes fans, would anyone be interested in a long term buddy read, of all of Doyle's Holmes books ? It won't be too full on as I already have a number of other commitments..."

I would like to join too. :))

I won't commit to the whole thing - too many other books to read - but I will probably join in rereading some of the short stories.

I have no problem at all with "now and then" or "popping in occasionally". I'm sure there will always be a few people to read along with.

I will try and come up with a rough time scale and run it past a everyone interested.

@Jean, do you think we should set up a buddy read thread ?

Adrian wrote: "So , calling all Sherlock Holmes fans, would anyone be interested in a long term buddy read, of all of Doyle's Holmes books ? It won't be too full on as I already have a number of other commitments..."

Yes I'd be interested - maybe not all of them but certainly some of them. Sound fun!

Adrian wrote: "@Jean, do you think we should set up a buddy read thread ? ..."

Yes, I'll do it right now, and please let me know if you think of a snappier title, as I can easily alter it.

EDIT: LINK HERE

Bionic Jean wrote: "Adrian wrote: "@Jean, do you think we should set up a buddy read thread ? ..."

Yes, I'll do it right now, and please let me know if you think of a snappier title, as I can easily alter it.: ..."

The title is fine Jean, thanks.

To anyone who hasn't noticed, we have a Buddy read of all the Sherlock Holmes stories (novels and short stories) commencing in June. So if you would like any more information please see the thread in the Buddy Read Discussion.

Adrian wrote: "I think it is actually quite universally acknowledged that he was the best, in fact he got so engrossed in the part that ultimately it contributed to/played a part in his death."

For me too, as I've said on another thread, Jeremy Brett is my definitive image of Holmes. (I didn't know that he'd passed away --and my curiosity was piqued by the statement that his role had something to do with his death! Can you tell us more?)

I saw the first Robert Downey Holmes movie, and thought it was passable escapist entertainment; but I don't consider it a real adaptation or genuinely faithful interpretation of Doyle's Holmes. IMO, it's not a mystery drama in the English tradition, either; Holmes is transformed into an action hero, and there's very little real element of detecting or deducting. None of the characters and their relationships are anything much like Doyle's portrayal of them.

As far as the relative merits of Doyle's and Christie's short vs. long fiction, based just on what I've read (and I've read relatively more of Doyle's work than Christie's), though it's not the majority position, I have to say that for the most part I find the quality of both authors' writing pretty consistently good in both formats. (Short stories and novels, of course, work somewhat differently as literature; but I find theirs rewarding in both formats.) The Hound of the Baskervilles is my favorite of the Holmes novels.

Is there any interest in creating a thread for Holmes pastiches and spin-offs? I can't say I've read that many of them (though I've enjoyed a few!); but there are a lot of them out there, and I find the concept interesting.

Werner wrote: "I didn't know that he'd passed away --and my curiosity was piqued by the statement that his role had something to do with his death! Can you tell us more?.."

Adrian may be able to fill in more details, but Jeremy Brett had various mental health problems, and was a depressive. He came more and more to identify with the role of Sherlock Holmes, and his family and friends were very worried about this latterly. I seem to remember the last episodes were filmed spasmodically, because of his depression. He committed suicide after he had filmed the final episode.

Edit: Not strictly accurate - please read Adrian's fuller post.