SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Let's talk about it!

Some questions to get us started:

1. What did you like/dislike about the setting?
2. Which characters stuck out to you?
3. What did you think about the blend of concepts?
4. Overall thoughts?

I am still on the fence about the inclusion of technology in fantasy. I say that carefully because like Star Wars, I seem to be fine with magic being included in my sci-fi.

It is sort of a cost-benefit analysis, either the technology is superior and you throw all your resources behind that or the magic is superior and your whole culture is built around finding and nurturing that.

Perhaps this world is at a cross-roads where one is waning but it did not feel like that, it felt like the world was built to try to contain both and that was a bit perplexing for me.

With that said, I loved the book.

I liked the tech/feudal society. The concept is no different than the Amish in the US. I also loved that we got so much aftermath after the attack. Normally casualties and PTSD are glossed over. Misaki's feelings after Marmoru were great and refreshing.

I found Misaki to be a wonderfully nuanced character. It’s unusual to have a mother portrayed so well in fantasy lit. Even more unusual to show a mother that does not necessarily have that built in nurturing love for her offspring. I found her to be so refreshing and memorable.

So I finished, an my overall impression is that the book needed some work. There's a lot of chaff that could have been excised. And the writing was uneven, there were moments of telling the reader the emotional turmoil of the characters and other moments that showed it wonderfully. Fine, but it could have been so much better and I'm disappointed in the potential that was shown and not reached.

I liked the tech and feudal blended society. I definitely wasn't expecting it, but it was an interesting element. It felt believable to me that there was an outpost of society that hadn't fully embraced technology. I liked that we saw some things that used technology along with some things that used magic. Like washing clothes and dishes with your water control powers instead of needing appliances, but still having a TV and modern plumbing.

Misaki was a great character, and I really enjoyed her growth throughout the book. I felt like she was pretty self aware, but also kind of hard on herself, so it was nice to see her starting to get peace near the end. I also really liked Setsuko and her friendship with Misaki.

I enjoyed this for the most part, but I was really thrown by some aspects of the worldbuilding. The world map is basically Earth, but it's called something else. The nations are clearly the same as in our world, but called something else. The phrases are modern English, but the units of time are something else. I couldn't get past this, it annoyed me every time someone said something like "Just a dinma!" I would prefer that the world is either our own, or clearly something different. It felt lazy to me.

I haven't read the other books in the Theonite series, so I could be wrong, but I kept thinking that she wrote those as her debut, and had to stick with the world she created, even if it wasn't fully developed. It was like she was given a tool set that wouldn't allow her to make this world as great as it could've been.

In the end I had to round my 3.5 rating down, because those things kept coming up and bothering me.

Haven't quite finished yet, but the last third is basically epilogue and I don't know how I feel about that.

An early impression that I decided was too much of a spoiler to add to the first impression thread. We were introduced to Mamoru and this seemingly low/no tech setting. Child warriors. Honor obsessive people. Samurai's are fantastical enough (for me). I was getting comfortable with this leaning heavily into Japanese tropes/stereotypes. It felt familiar.

Switching to Misaki's perspective didn't change that. Her conversation with Setsuko and Hyori changed nothing. And then:

“I challenge you to a duel!”
On a whim, Misaki pooled her jiya, pulled the surrounding water molecules to her hand and froze them into a makeshift sword—well, more of a blunt icicle than a sword—the perfect size for combat with a four-year-old.
“I accept!” she announced.
“Misaki-san, what are you doing?” Hyori asked.
“Fight me, Yukino Ryota!”

and I put the book down for the evening. It took awhile for me to recalibrate my brain for the story I was about to read.

The introduction of 'magic' shouldn't have surprised me but how it was introduced did.

Bobby wrote: "It felt believable to me that there was an outpost of society that hadn't fully embraced technology"

I think that is eventually where I ended up and who knows, maybe there are some ice breathing, sword wielding, super samurais somewhere in Papua New Guinea (or more likely some forgotten Russian peninsula)

I really enjoyed this. Misaki was a particularly memorable, well-developed character. However, I agree with Anna about the world-building; I went running to the glossary quite a few times, which was quite annoying.

A few questions:

How is the taboo of talking badly about the Empire enforced? I realize that the Empire could punish Takayubi if it was found out, but how would it be? Takayubi is a close-knit community and the Empire doesn't seem to have anyone posted there regularly. It wouldn't have been warranted before the Ranganese attack, but after, there was plenty that could have been said that wasn't.

Why did Takeru always disregard his wife's feelings and opinions? I realize the province had rather backward views of women, and that he retreated into the mountain to avoid emotions, and wanted to avoid violence, but none of these seem to me to be sufficient justification for an ostensibly good man to ignore his wife.

Suppose Misaki was not strong enough to physically confront Takeru, or didn't want to challenge him to a duel. Would there have been another way to get him to take her seriously? I feel an honest talk may have been possible without taking such an extreme, dramatic step.

I'm currently reading this one and personally finding it hard to get through and stay with the storyline. It's slow and now with it having a part of the story with a character that fights bad guys like the batman I mean whats next? Superman?

I already complained about the writing style and the excessive Japanese, especially since I understand Japanese and live in Japan it made me cringe every time. Just using the suffix would have been enough IMO.

The story was okay and I liked what the writer tried to do with it- particularly the characters of Misaki and Takeru, but the pacing was so off - very slow beginning, then things culminated intensely halfway through and suddenly the story wrapped up quickly and the last couple chapters were really just extra pages, not really concluding the story, I dunno how to explain. It didn't feel necessary for the story, and the conflict(?) with the empire felt unresolved.

I would've also liked the change in Takeru's character and the relationship with Misaki to spread a bit to make more sense.

Overall, a story with a lot of great potential, but execution left a lot to be desired. I've read worse tho... 🤷‍♀️

It's taken me almost 2 weeks to get through 1/3 of the book. I'm not pulled in yet, and even if something finally happens, I doubt it can be enough for me to determine this is something that I personally like.

Help me. Is it really that big a change in the next chapter or two?

The first part of the book is all setup, the second part of the book is all action, and the third part of the book is all aftermath. I'd say each part is very different from the last, so there is some hope if you aren't into it yet.

The middle part is very intense with lots of fighting and magic. The last part has a lot of character development.

I echo Bobby's assessment.

Thanks! I tried to press on. I got to where the Ranga attack, but it felt so contrived because it took me so long to get there, that I am throwing in the towel.

I don't think it's a bad book, but I do think the set up was too much for the turn around, especially since I didn't find any of the sorts of things I would normally want to pull me in. I can see how for faster readers or people who love magic school/vigilante books this would be a totally different story and I am glad that it worked for others!

I am a fan of magic school/vigilante books and I don't think the writing is good enough to keep me invested. Hahah - The switches between characters & time are clunky.

I've been thinking more about this and I think the major issue with the book is that it's unfocused and too broad. Does it want to be a tragic last stand hero's journey? Does it want to be a quiet exploration of the aftermath of wartime? Does it want to be the story of a woman who must suppress who she is because her culture demands it?

Currently it is all of those things, and none of them are truly developed super well because space is given to all the other stories. The potential is there, but it wasn't worked over enough times.

I read a post, or twitter thread, something from Alethia Kontis about her Arilland books, specifically Hero and Trixter. Originally she'd wanted them to be in one book but her editor pointed out that there were two different stories there and putting them in one book would make them suffer. Unfortunately no one told Wang that, or if they did she didn't listen.

I finished last night, and my feelings are mixed. I'm completely fine with the mix of magic and technology - I was surprised by it at first, but didn't have a hard time shrugging and accepting it. The first 40% was extremely hard to get through, the middle 20% was fine, and I liked most of the last 40%

Melani, I completely agree that the book was trying to be too many things at once. Fortunately for me, the part I liked best was the final third, so it ended on a good note, but it still felt rushed and often not as well supported by the rest of the story as it could have been. For instance, I agree with Anat and Ryan's comments about how Takeru's character seemed to change abruptly. I was frustrated that his struggles weren't more visible to the reader earlier on in the book, and that his dismissiveness toward Misaki was never really explained.

Kaa, I agree that Takeru's struggles could have been shown much earlier. For most of the book he's this emotionless and seemingly cruel man, and then it changes in one scene. It would have been nice to either have a POV from him earlier, or just some sign that there was more to him than there appeared to be.

Melani wrote: "I've been thinking more about this and I think the major issue with the book is that it's unfocused and too broad. Does it want to be a tragic last stand hero's journey? Does it want to be a quiet ..."

Interesting. There's nothing I can think of that I'd want removed from the first two thirds of the book. Wang talks on her blog about the difficulty of writing such a book with the main character being a housewife. That it included so much, making the other characters more whole than is usually done made me enjoy it so much. I was in no rush whatsoever to get to the action. Mamoru's discovery that the world wasn't as he was told by those he depended on and was expected to defend was a story I wanted to read. Misaki feeling trapped in a jail of her own making and finding companions in similar circumstances to make it tolerable was a story I wanted to read. The delight of Misaki's father-in-law in her failure to do her 'duty' was a story I needed to read. That Misaki didn't think about the affect such a bully would have on his children, one of which being her husband, reminded me of Tara Westover's non-fiction book Educated which I read a week prior and spoke of the exact same thing.

The only things from the story that I would have jettisoned were the chapters setting up the YA series that this book was a prequel to. Daniel and Robin were of no interest to me except when in confrontation with Takeru.

I agree that Takeru's character change was abrupt and the fight that Misaki instigated was a stretch even for me, which is what stopped me from giving this 5 stars.

It's taken me a while but I'm finally okay with the frustration that Mt. Takayubi didn't openly revolt against the empire after everything. A revolution then would have been the most fantastical aspect of the book (and probably caused continuity issues with the series this was steering us towards). Only have to look at the world around us with idiot national leaders unfazed by the deaths of its citizens to see how unlikely a revolution is. The characters in the book, like us, merely talk the talk whilst striving to survive. Quietly. It's quite perfect. If I've ever been happier for not getting what I wanted then I can't recall when.

Allison's point about this being suited for fast readers gave me pause as I read this in less than 36 hours, but I'm confused by an argument that an author tried to give us too much in a book. I want more of this sort of thing, not less. I can deal with more than the impending doom coupled with a love story that the vast majority of authors offer up.

Why did Takeru always disregard his wife's feelings and opinions? I realize the province had rather backward views of women, and that he retreated into the mountain to avoid emotions, and wanted to avoid violence, but none of these seem to me to be sufficient justification for an ostensibly good man to ignore his wife.

It wasn't enough justification for me but it was portrayed as Takeru having no understanding of a healthy relationship/marriage. Whenever his parents spoke it was an argument. Not talking (much) with his wife who recoiled from his touch was a better alternative than risking becoming like his parents.

Finished this last night, and for the most part found it really enjoyable. That was some battle! I enjoyed the magic, the world, and the characters. Anyone planning to read more of the author's work?

Only her future Adult Fantasy for me. I gave the YA Theonite series a once over and figured that I wouldn't enjoy it.

What do you mean by a "once over", and why did you decide against reading them?

I enjoyed this book but I probably won't read the Theonite stories - not many seemed to have read them and I'm guessing that as the works of a novice author they might be kind of rough and of lower quality than the Sword of Kaigen. But like Ryan, I look forward to her future work.

A 'once-over' is a quick search or investigation. I wasn't at all interested in Daniel or the antagonist that kidnapped children with different magical abilities from this book to want to read the Theonite series. Those were the chapters I'd have gladly removed. The ideas that I loved in this are/were too big and complex for YA and my taste doesn't tend to go in that direction anyway.


Tangent:
I must look into the low quality first novel idea more. Some authors took to Twitter at some point in the last year and spoke about how their debut novels were their highest selling of all their works. Not that sales indicate better writing. I've generally found that authors put their more original or challenging ideas in their earlier creations. An improvement in writing ability coupled with a decline in novelty. Similar to musicians where the first or second album is considered the most seminal.

I don't know how much truth there is in any of these positions.

I know what a once over is, I was just wondering what exactly that meant for you in this case. Was it just reading the published synopsis and online reviews, or did you look at the actual book and skim/read a chapter or two?

Regarding your tangent: I wish statistics for this sort of thing existed. My experience runs counter to yours: I find that, in general, the quality of the ideas does not diminish with further publications, and that in many cases they get even better. It would be interesting to hear from others.

In any case, I've read quite a few posts from authors that say their skill at writing grows with practice over time, as, indeed, any skill does. So even if debuts have better ideas, increases in other aspects of writing skills would probably more than compensate.

Specifically in Wang's case, I believe her earlier work might be rougher because I read a recent blog post by her, in which she stated that she does not plan to write any sequels to her Theonite series anytime soon because she currently lacks sufficient skill to continue it. https://mlwangbooks.com/2019/12/17/di...

I read the synopsis/blurb as well as some of Wang's blog including the replies which led me to believe that it painted things in stark contrasts. A preference for action and the kind of hysterics that run rife in YA. The pure hearted hero up against the big bad evil who takes children and plans world domination does not appeal to me in the slightest.

I haven't read the books to know but I suspect that Wang did as George R. R. Martin did with Game of Thrones and allowed for her characters to stray too far to bring them back to a plausible and satisfactory conclusion. My reading of the second books blurb does the heavy lifting in that suspicion, but hell if I'm going to doubt my deduction skills when they've served me so well thus far.

For me, improved skill means a removal of lows but limited ideas means a lack of highs. It's not a hard and fast rule though.

I'm torn about this one. I oscillated between 3-5 stars, so I finally settled in on 4 given how much I truly loved large portions of the book.

I was initially put off by the setting somewhat, but I quickly got into the struggle Mamoru's struggle to reconcile with unveiled truths about the world. I thought a lot of those scenes were iconic and wonderful. I also adored Misaki and the balance Wang gave her character between showing motherhood in SFF (a theme I enjoy quite a bit) and also having a hidden, interesting past.

Once the action got going, I was torn. It was well-enough written, but it was almost too frantic and frenetic, to the point that it became difficult to follow at times (granted, I read quickly and a lot of this book was read in the break room at work, so it may have simply been distractions).

I truly did not expect the fate of Mamoru, and I'm surprised no one has discussed this in more detail so far. I am still trying to deal with that, because it felt like a coming of age story cut so short. That scene near the end when Misaki waters the pine, "Nyama to you, Mamoru"--right in the gut. I am still trying to figure out how I feel about this--sad is probably the most accurate descriptor, if it's some what basic.

I also would very much like to read more in the universe, but I saw the author has decided to discontinue the Theonite series, which makes me hesitant to dive into the first two books only to not have a conclusion.

I guess my overall feelings so far are, as I said, somewhat mixed. There were many parts of the book I adored, and I felt an urge to hug my Kindle once I'd finished. Reading through what others' said, it seems like this was a generally liked book, with flaws.

So we're going an official reread of this masterpiece on the 15th and I'm here for all your opinions, whether it's something seemingly inconsequential or a hottake.

Gimme what you've got!

I'm kinda with you, JW. I bounced hard off it at first because I'm so over "I'm not like other girl" girls and "teen who magics hard enough to topple an empire" stories and this felt like it was going in that direction.

I think this was meant to subvert the genre, and I think we got there, but it took way, way too long imo.

And I think that's what it comes down to for me. If this is a story of how systems of oppression like tyrants and "real men" rhetoric hurt everyone, I needed a bit more reframing of the scenes and a few more edits on how many on the nose abuses we see to grasp how all our characters feel the weight of this oppression.

If this is a story of a family healing, of people--particularly women--finding what it means to be strong when the contest isn't just boxing, I think we followed some of the wrong moments.

When Mamoru died the tonal shift for me was epic, and very hard hitting. I thought it was brilliant, and that a lot that followed is the sort of thing we don't see often in SFF and it was mostly done very deftly.

But then we dip back into the expected with the wartime rape and suicide. I'm not sure what purpose that served other than to say there are always victims. But that type of victimhood is so overutilized it's become synonymous with another character's transition to hero story--in this case, Misaki's. The pain is subverted into Misaki's pain and tribulations and I don't think that's what the author intended, but you can't do the call of a call and response and not expect the audience to provide the response.

So I'm puzzling over this one. So much was smart and unexpected, and so much was over the top and reductive.

The most interesting thing about SoK for me was how Misaki over the course of the novel becomes a complicit "enforcer"--has internalized the Empire's messaging to the point that she actively galvanizes those around her. The conclave of women in chapter 24, and Takeru as well. I thought this was so audacious! "I'm not walking away from Omelas, and I'm gonna make good and sure that you all don't either." And the reasoning for that is never explained, we're not given a bunch of Misaki's backstory or psychology to support it. There are a lot of things about our own culture that we unthinkingly support, so it was really cool and interesting how Misaki, in a very strong-willed manner, stepped up to ideals that culturally wouldn't sit very well with an American reader, simply because it is the done thing.

I have a few issues with it but the one that I won't save for VBC (heh) is that it feels rather clumpy to me.

Setup phase --> battle sequence --> aftermath --> stuff setting up another book or series.

I didn't really get a strong sense of what this novel was doing until over 400 pages in (around that scene in Ch. 24, actually). Almost too little too late when it came to the throughline about complicity, at least. In general, the latter part of the book felt like a lot of it could have been pared out, especially the dangling threads that would have been intended to be carried through to later books or a continuation of the prequel.

I started reading this book last summer and haven't touched it in a couple of months; after I finish the other 3 books I'm reading right now I might get back to it. I stopped dead at just over 50%, after the big battle. I thought the action scenes were a real strength of the book and they were my favorite parts. I found the racist, sexist, classist warrior cult culture was off-putting. I liked the way elemental magic was used creatively in the book. But I really disliked the time jumps back to Misaki's school days--in fact, I quit reading when it jumped back in time again after the big battle. The school days, juvenile crime fighting, utterly self-righteous and humorless bit wasn't really something I was interested in getting more of (YA in the worst way). Parts of it were good enough that I didn't want to DNF it, but I haven't been enthusiastic about getting back to it. Does it get better? Is it worth picking back up again for the 2nd half?

If battle scenes are primarily what you're looking for, there is a bit more of that past the point you got to, but they are by no means a substantial percentage of the latter parts of the book.

Beth wrote: "If battle scenes are primarily what you're looking for, there is a bit more of that past the point you got to, but they are by no means a substantial percentage of the latter parts of the book."
-----Normally I don't read for battle scenes, I just found that those were the parts in the Sword of Kaigen that were strongest and engaged me the most. They aren't usually even on the list of what I seek out or notice especially in books.

I wouldn't say the book gets better, but that's because I liked it from the start. There's a lot of (brilliant) worldbuilding and character establishment before the battle that makes the post battle events much more meaningful.

Dang it! This is the spoiler thread yet I'm trying not to spoil it for you, Jessica.

No worries, I generally don't get too upset over a spoiler. I think I may wait to get back to this one. I started The Blacktongue Thief and I think I'm more in the mood for something that has a sense of humor even if it's dark.

The Blacktongue Thief had me in stitches.

Yes! I am about 30% into The Blacktongue Thief and enjoying it immensely. I am even contemplating some of Buehlman's other works--he mostly writes horror, which is not my favorite genre, but I occasionally like some fantasy or sci fi horror books. Just added Between Two Fires to my TBR...

Enjoyed. Well-rounded characters, interesting magic. Having the two points of view being mother and son was interesting. I am happy that Misaki and Tanaku's marriage strengthened.

Would have liked the suspicions about the propaganda, the cracks being seen in the empire, to be stretched out more, the discoveries about the reasons behind Ranga's attacks + the coverup to be more dramatic.

Did not like: the italics for the Imperial Standard language. It would only make sense if that language was telepathic, which it was not - they were just speaking Imperial Standard instead of the local dialect. And then what would the book use for a third language, I wondered? We found out in when characters did use a third language, Lindish. Also in italics, oy.

Chapter 31 - Robin and Daniel's visit. Except for the knowledge about the ghostly assassin, didn't really fit the rest of the book? Maybe make it an Epilogue instead of a chapter. Or add more flashback scenes about the youth and crime-fighting, so I care more about Misaki's old friends?

Bonnie wrote: "Did not like: the italics for the Imperial Standard language."

There were definitely ways this could be approached without making a large portion of the early parts of the book be in italics. Mention what language people are talking in, make a note if they're switching, and things will go much easier for the reader with old eyes.

Well, Beth the Garlic/Mercury, your voice on the call yesterday did sound older than you look in your profile pic. But, you didn't sound old enough to have old eyes
😏😅
To me the italics meant/felt like they were speaking telepathically. Or an alien using a different orifice for human communication.
I don't think it was important enough in the story to deserve so much attention. The new boy at school; the soldiers; Daniel's visit. Yes, a mention. "The soldier addressed him in imperial standard."

“So, what is Ranga doing launching these concentrated attacks on the towns of Kaigen’s most powerful fighters? If their goal was to penetrate into the interior and they had the element of surprise, why target the homes of the people most likely to repel them?”

^
I'm glad that was explained in the book, because I was wondering about that very thing.

I did notice some of those Livingston criminals' names sounded Aztec /Mexican, but Anna I did not think Duma's map resembled ours until I turned it upside down after the meeting!

Listening to the audiobook of this for at least the fifth time and it still makes me teary eyed whenever Misaki's grief due to Mamoru's death is touched upon. It's done so well! Her pain is just so visceral.

I wish more books dealt with death and grief even half as well as this book does.