Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion

Here's where you talk about "The Borders of Infinity"

Out of the three short stories that are in the book The Borders of Infinity - "The Mountains of Mourning", "Labyrinth", and "The Borders of Infinity" - I think I like this one, "The Borders of Infinity" best.

I like the beginning thrown in media res with no idea how Miles has got into this mess. I like the way we can see he's up to something but we're not sure what.
And I did not expect (view spoiler)[the whole rescure mission! I was sure they would break out somehow, but I didn't see this coming. And then the realisation that Miles had been speaking to his own people through the Cetagandan surveillence really made go oooooh and think back over every conversation he'd had in the story. It's very clever. I knew something was up when he said 14 apostles but I didn't work it out!

I'm constantly amazed by Bujold's ability to touch on really dark subjects without losing the overall optimistic and light-hearted tone of the books. I can't believe that she killed off some many characters in this one: Mucha and Beatrice! 😧 Is anyone safe? I'm seriously starting to worrry for the safety of Elena or Ivan! (hide spoiler)]

Interesting, Nick. I feel that, although it is good, as they all are, it's my least favorite

Ooh, that is interesting. Can you say why?

Did you read it in the 'book' with the framing device? What did you think of it? I suppose a short story collection with a framing device is better than one without, but I'm not sure that it added much?

well, I just thought all of Miles' trudging around and trying to get ready was not as fun as many of Miles' other adventures. And there are more that you have not read yet, of course.

Actually, I think the "framing device" kind of gives away some of what is going to happen.

And I am sure I gave it 5 stars--even though I don't like it as much as others that I gave 5 stars.

(I cannot figure out why the stars we gave are not showing next to our names. I checked, and I'm pretty sure I set this thread up properly. But it's not showing the stars!)

Kateblue wrote: "I just thought all of Miles' trudging around and trying to get ready was not as fun as many of Miles' other adventures."
Oh yeah, I can totally see that! It is a bit slower, and there's less comedy and less of the frenetic running one step ahead of disaster!


Artists impression of Miles Naismith making a plan

Kateblue wrote: "I cannot figure out why the stars we gave are not showing next to our names. I checked, and I'm pretty sure I set this thread up properly. But it's not showing the stars!"
For me, it's because I haven't added the short story edition to my bookshelf. I read the book version with all three shorts so that's the one I've shelved.

Well, I gave it 5*, and it is still not showing up. But I guess it doesn't really matter.

When reading BoI, I kept thinking about the Warrior's Apprentice, since they both have that frenetic feeling of "running up a disintegrating staircase", as Oleksandr put it. And I, too, enjoyed the in medias res device: it was fun not knowing what's happening and parsing the real story together afterwards.

But the plot was also pretty ridiculous. I just didn't but it that the camp would've fallen into such a Lord of the Flies mess. Why did the inmates keep fighting over the rat bars, when there was plenty for everyone? What do they do with the extras: build a fort? Since the inmates seem to mostly just lie on the ground, their energy consumption should be way down, and the rat bars were said to taste pretty bad, as well. Once you've hoarded extra two or three bars, there should be basically no incentive to keep hoarding.

And if they had tried to impose order before and failed repeatedly, how did Miles pull it off in a couple of days? I get it that Miles is really clever, but this goes beyond clever and would suggest he's got superhuman abilities. He didn't really do anything that waa extraordinary clever: if Miles' plan worked so well, why hadn't anyone else done it already?

It was a fun and exiting read if you didn't think about it too much - but unfortunately the format forced you to review the story in your head.

Antti wrote: " I just didn't but it that the camp would've fallen into such a Lord of the Flies mess."
I guess it depends on how cynical you are about human nature. If you assume that nobody would bother to take more ration bars than they needed, then sure there's no reason to fall to Lord of the Flies. But if you believe that some small percentage of humanity will be as beastly as possible because they enjoy dominating others, then it's easy to see how it happens, especially with the Cetagandans deliberately trying to engineer it.

So there's a few obvious incentives to hoard bars among the bullies: sex, clothes and the pleasure of domination.
If a bully can hoard ration bars and make sure that other people are repeatedly going hungry then he can use his hoard to force them into exchanging what he wants for ration bars: whether he wants sex, or other people's clothes to use as bedding and pillows, or just the pleasure of making someone grovel.

And then once you've got a small number of people hoarding bars then suddenly everyone starts hoarding, for the entirely rational reason that if they don't they might miss out. And then it's straight to Lord of the Flies. Look no further than the recent stampede for toilet paper despite no actual toilet paper shortage (in the USA and UK, anyway, maybe you didn't get it in Finland?)

Antti wrote: "if Miles' plan worked so well, why hadn't anyone else done it already?"
I got the impression that Miles was well aware that his plan would collapse with time as soon as the Cetagandans thought up more clever ways to pit people against each other. Miles's plan only needed to work until the rescue arrived. Everyone else was trying to make an equilibrium that would last forever, which is much harder.

This is me trying to steelman the logic of the story - but I do agree in general that the Vorkosigan saga repeatedly skips over the difficult parts of the story in favour of a sort of TADA! flourish of resolution. I don't think I mind, it's fun, and the stories are meant to be very fast paced and action oriented.

If I remember correctly, the treaty on prisoner treatment requires x amount of space per prisoner and y amount of food per day. But it did not say how it was to be distributed. The Cetagandens initiating hoarding by unequal distribution: not enough handed out in the morning, excess handed out in the evening but only in certain spots. Once you missed out a time or two by being polite you would become aggressive.

Nick wrote: "I got the impression that Miles was well aware that his plan would collapse with time as soon as the Cetagandans thought up more clever ways to pit people against each other."
Fair enough, although it still doesn't really explain why the inmates were willing to go along with Miles' plan, if they expected it to implode eventually anyway - but maybe he simply is such a fast and convincing talker he managed to bedazzle everyone. That's at least not wholly implausible.

TomK2 wrote: "The Cetagandens initiating hoarding by unequal distribution: not enough handed out in the morning, excess handed out in the evening but only in certain spots."

You remember correctly: that's how it was explained in the story, and it could work, except the story stated they received rat bars worth 1500 calories each twice a day. That's a lot of calories! If you are just idling, you could get by with just one of those bars pretty much indefinately, so the supply exceeds demant twice fold.

I'll continue Nick's toilet paper example: yes, we did have toilet paper hoarding here in Finland, and there was about a week when the stores had no or very little TP on their shelves. But then the shelves restocked again, since the factories kept on manufacturing the stuff and there are very real limits how much toilet paper anyone can hoard.

That's what should've happened there, as well: there would be a short period of hoarding and even panic, but after a week of two everyone who wanted to hoard would already have such a big pile they couldn't store it anywhere conveniently (it's not like they have locked storage in there) and the bars just keep on coming, twice every day. When the supply exceeds demand in such a big amount, hoarding simply isn't feasible, especially if you can't control the point of the supply (the drops happened in random locations, after all).

If the story had said they only received one bar every day, then the situation could devolve very rapidly and the story would make more sense, but with two bars I'm really not buying it. The devil is in the details.

Ha! Interesting about the supply and demand for ratbars analysis, Annti. I never thought about it before. Obvious LMB is not an economist or finance whiz.

Now that I have read the ratbar dilemma again, I think she did explain that at one point, the Cetagandan's gave them fewer rat bars, and that's one of the things that messed up the Marilicans in the prison. They kept hoarding because they never knew if it would happen again.

Hey, at least it IS a rationale . . .

BTW, My 3 sentence review of this novella will not post because it tells me the reCAPTCHA verification is invalid. I tried three times. It remembers my review, but it just won't post. This one doesn't matter, but I guess I won't be able to post any reviews anymore . . .

There's no reCAPTCHA verification on my review this morning so I was able to post. Anyone else had trouble with this? I also had trouble with one of the discussions about these books I started last night, but it finally let me post those, also.

Don't bother to read my review. It says nothing much really. Just that I liked this one much better this time.

I liked this one a lot. Definitely, not knowing how Miles got into the mess is a great start. It all falls into place nicely, even if there is some manipulation of human nature inherent in the writing. I mean, that IS Miles’s specialty!

Yes, a fast talker, Miles! One of my favorite characters ever, period. She is so good at that!

Well, firstly, as an Australian I'd just like to say that I think we started the toilet paper hoarding trend. So proud. (That's sarcasm. LOL!) I was going to blabber on but everything I want to say is pretty much in my review, so this is a [slightly] edited version of it:

LMB always manages to fit lots into her novellas, meaning there’s no lack of plot, action or humour. And, actually, there’s even some ‘forward momentum’ of Miles’s characterisation, I thought.

The whole story is set up as a report from Miles to Barrayaran Intelligence, so LMB begins the story with Miles entering a high tech POW camp with unfortunately no real explanation to the reader. (We do find out the vague details towards the end though. And I guess LMB never thought it was really relevant to the fun or the moral of the story.)

After his initial less-than-friendly welcome to the camp, Miles gains further information about how the camp is run and soon realises that although the Cetagandans (who run the camp) are not breaking any POW camp rules technically, they’re still physically and psychologically abusing the prisoners. To counter the latter especially Miles comes up with, as usual, a plan to get the prisoners working together and focused on fighting their captors instead of each other. Obviously with this subject matter, there’s lots of reflection a reader can do about the chances of rehabilitation vs escalation of violence for those incarcerated and what is a basic human right.

As is usual with LMB, she still manages to keep the book funny, mostly from the fact that poor ol’ Miles spends most of the book without clothes on.

I think I would have given the book a lesser rating, as I admit I didn’t enjoy it quite as much as the other Miles novellas I’ve read, but for the ending and the poignant moment included in the ‘framing’ of the story. This scene, featuring my beloved Cordelia, added another half start at least.

4 out of 5

I loved this story... these are types of things I want to see Miles doing!

With the bar thing.... they did discuss how they suspected the quantity was shorted for a while to encourage the fighting.. it's not like anyone was counting, And I totally believe human nature would do that.. there was no tp on the shelves here in New England for MONTHS.. its just starting to be available now. even my wife was doing it... we are still using the stuff she bought in March when she got lucky and was at a discount store on the day a shipment dropped. Food is even more important.

I also pictured that the Cetagandians were encouraging the descent to 'Lord of the Flies' as best they could.. Miles explanation for that made total sense to me.
(view spoiler)[
I knew there would be a rescue, but I had no idea he was setting it up while he was 'preaching'.. .that was brilliant. (hide spoiler)]

I have renewed motivation to read the series for sure!

Joe wrote: "I also pictured that the Cetagandians were encouraging the descent to 'Lord of the Flies' as best they could"

Yes, agreed, to make prisoners guard themselves

yes! I read this story before I read Cetaganda. Before I read Cetaganda, I thought them just sadistic and hateful aliens of undetermined origin or culture. After I read Cetaganda, It seemed to me that the Cetagandens had so little regard for Barryarans that they were subhuman compared to them. With that point of view, the shenanigans with the rations and the prisoners response just served as proof of their prejudice.

And this is another story to highlight the superiority of Mile's intelligence, and his ability to lead. Which is, of course, despite his obvious physical limitations.

Why was miles plan successful? Because he knew a rescue was coming, and all he had to do was try and make it go smoother. The rescue was coming wether Miles had any effect or not. The success of the rescue would be enhanced if Miles was successful, but it would have happened anyway even if he had perished shortly after arrival.

TomK2 wrote: "After I read Cetaganda, It seemed to me that the Cetagandens had so little regard for Barryarans that they were subhuman compared to them.."

Yes, actually everyone is below them. There is a table talk with haut lady in Captain Vorpatril's Alliance, where she states like nuclear bombing was a sad misunderstanding or some such

It was also sad that war was deemed the only way to keep Cetaganden men fit, and the only meaningful way to know which were the best for breeding purposes. At least from the Haut Lady perspective.

I finished this compilation a few weeks ago and it was my favorite by far, and actually one of my favorite books! 5⭐️ easily. I've wanted to lear more about the larger world(s) and this delivered that and more. And we also get the learn more about how Miles copes with his condition and staves off self loathing, or at least staves of depression. BUT, as many have mentioned above, we continue to see LMB allowing Miles to do the impossible. One must suspend belief a bit and go along for the ride.

The Mountains of Morning was marvelous, it made me smile, sad, and nostalgic (for what I don’t know). While the specific issues discussed are not relevant today, the larger concept is remarkably pertinent. Masterful and evocative storytelling, so much in such a short number of pages.

Labyrinth was another fantastic read, I really liked the new setting and the new characters (both good and bad). For a work from the lat 80's, there are so many progressive social ideas packed into these stories! The characters made this a fantastic read for me.

Borders of Infinity was masterfully woven narrative, I had no idea he was working to smooth a breakout during his incarceration. Such an intense ending, mixing relief and joy with violence and loss.

I could say more but others have said it better than I can. So happy I picked this series up. Thank you all for such a fun discussion, even though I'm pretty late to the party.

I thought Mountains was the best piece in the whole series!