Old Norse Literature discussion

Since we're just about to come to the dvergatal - the "Reckoning of Dwarves" - I suggest that we discuss nine verses this week, i.e. 7 to 15. If you're a Tolkien fan and haven't already done so, open up the LARA version in Chrome or Firefox, use the Table of Contents to navigate to verse 12, and listen to Ingibjörg reading it out:

12
Veigr ok Gandálfr,
Vindálfr, Þráinn,
Þekkr ok Þorinn,
Þrór, Vitr ok Litr,
Nár ok Nýráðr,
nú hefi ek dverga,
Reginn ok Ráðsviðr,
rétt um talða.

13
Fíli, Kíli,
Fundinn, Náli,
Hefti, Víli,
Hanarr, Sví,
Frár, Hornbori,
Frægr ok Lóni,
Aurvangr, Jari,
Eikins.

14
Mál er dverga
í Dvalins liði
ljóna kindum
til Lofa telja,
þeir er sóttu
frá salar steini
aurvanga sjöt
til Jöruvalla.

I have been familiar with many of these names since I was a small child, and not known how to pronounce them correctly! But now I do :)

In Vsp 8,

Teflðu í túni,
teitir vóru,
var þeim vettergis
vant ór gulli
unz þrjár kvómu
þursa meyjar
ámáttkar mjök
ór jötunheimum.

I presume the implication is that the gods were happy until the Norns arrived from Jötunheimr? But I am confused on two counts: first, is there anything in the text which explicitly says "until", and second, why should the arrival of the Norns make the gods unhappy? The Norns always appear to have existed, but did they only take over their function of determining the fates of all living beings when they arrived at Iðavöllr? That seems strange to me, but I don't see how else to make sense of the verse.

Manny wrote: is there anything in the text which explicitly says "until"

That would be unz.

I have to assume this ámáttkar is a syncopation of ámáttigar, fem. nom. pl. of ámáttigr 'very mighty'.

Manny wrote: "Why should the arrival of the Norns make gods unhappy?"

Good question. Maybe 'cause it interrupts their game at table? Or, (and this idea relies heavily on their names' etymologies, as signifying 'past, present, & future') their advent brings to an end the state of 'timelessness' that the gods enjoyed beforehand, and so inherently forebodes their (the gods', that is) ruin at Ragnarok?

I don't get the logic of the somehow-already-made & eminent dwarves Mótsognir & Durinn making the other dwarves, but I am convinced something significant is missing. The feeling is reinforced by the lines in 12:

nú hefi ek dverga
Reginn ok Ráðsviðr rétt um telja

What the hell is that? It's not a poetic device, it's just a sloppy scribal emendation.

This part reminds me that in the Silmarillion the dwarves are made (against the will of Eru) even before the elves. Here it's the same: the advent of dwarves precedes the first man & woman, which we'll get to in due time.

Max wrote: "Manny wrote: is there anything in the text which explicitly says "until"

That would be unz.

I have to assume this ámáttkar is a syncopation of ámáttigar, fem. nom. pl. of ámáttigr 'very mighty'."

Looking around, I find this very useful page. You are clearly right on both counts, and I see we have tagged unz incorrectly as "we". Thank you!

Good question. Maybe 'cause it interrupts their game at table? Or, (and this idea relies heavily on their names' etymologies, as signifying 'past, present, & future') their advent brings to an end the state of 'timelessness' that the gods enjoyed beforehand, and so inherently forebodes their (the gods', that is) ruin at Ragnarok?

Hard to interpret it in any other way, but I still find it weird to think that there was a stage in the history of the world when the Norns were not determining fate...

nú hefi ek dverga
Reginn ok Ráðsviðr rétt um telja

What the hell is that? It's not a poetic device, it's just a sloppy scribal emendation.

Damned if I know. Though why are you sure it's not a poetic device? It doesn't sound so bad to me.

This part reminds me that in the Silmarillion the dwarves are made (against the will of Eru) even before the elves.

Yes, Tolkien must have borrowed that from here?

Elves appear once in the Völuspá, verse 49:

Hvað er með ásum?
Hvað er með álfum?

but I have no idea who they are meant to be. Any thoughts?

Manny wrote: Though why are you sure it's not a poetic device?

I don't know, an 'afterthought' in an ancient, bardic song? While the V isn't exactly scripture, it's certainly not 'Chicken Soup for the Nordic Soul'. It just rings of, 'oh, there's a lacuna here & I happen to remember two more dwarf-names so I'll put them in without any grammatical relation to the sentence. I mean, if they were accusative, then at least I might be able to work out:

'And with the names 'so-and-so' and 'so-and-so' I have recited my list correctly.'

Any thoughts?
I really can't imagine 'elves' outside of the LotR conception of them. My incorrigible reliance on etymology (which here suggests 'white') leads me to think of the ignis fatuus of medieval lit, which is a 'will o' the wisp' or some such light in a low-lying dark place like the fens of northern Europe.

However it is, I think they have to be diminutive creatures, not the hulking 8-foot-high monsters of Tolkien.

The latter part of 14 is confusing me, partly because of the reason you mentioned in the last set of verses (i.e. the possibly ambiguous meaning of 'salar').

'... (they) who sought, away from the stone of earth, the seat of mud-planes, unto (the hall of?) Jöruvöllr.'

They're seeking out the hall of their kindred? Or a place to station themselves? I'm lost.

Max wrote: "I don't know, an 'afterthought' in an ancient, bardic song? While the V isn't exactly scripture, it's certainly not 'Chicken Soup for the Nordic Soul'. It just rings of, 'oh, there's a lacuna here & I happen to remember two more dwarf-names so I'll put them in without any grammatical relation to the sentence. I mean, if they were accusative, then at least I might be able to work out:

'And with the names 'so-and-so' and 'so-and-so' I have recited my list correctly.'"

Maybe it's the punchline to a joke that no one has got since 1340? I searched around on "Reginn ok Ráðsviðr" and didn't uncover any useful suggestions, though I did stumble across this rather enticing book.

I really can't imagine 'elves' outside of the LotR conception of them. My incorrigible reliance on etymology (which here suggests 'white') leads me to think of the ignis fatuus of medieval lit, which is a 'will o' the wisp' or some such light in a low-lying dark place like the fens of northern Europe.

After some more googling, I found this page. Clearly we need to read the prose Edda as well!

If I'd been more alert, I would have realised that the Dökkálfar are of course the Dark Elves, whose language David Peterson invented for the Thor movies. I read his book on conlanging just a few weeks ago, but I didn't realise that the Dark Elves were authentic.

Max wrote: "The latter part of 14 is confusing me, partly because of the reason you mentioned in the last set of verses (i.e. the possibly ambiguous meaning of 'salar').

'... (they) who sought, away from the stone of earth, the seat of mud-planes, unto (the hall of?) Jöruvöllr.'

They're seeking out the hall of their kindred? Or a place to station themselves? I'm lost."

Everyone I've found is reading frá salar steini as meaning something like "from the rocks of the earth", referring back to verse 4. So I guess we're just being told that they left the rocks and wandered into the wet plains. No idea why! Maybe we're not supposed to know.

I reluctantly come to the conclusion that salar has no implication of "hall" here, though being used to Tolkien's dwarves it's hard to drop the idea...

Manny wrote: I reluctantly come to the conclusion that salar has no implication of "hall" here, though being used to Tolkien's dwarves it's hard to drop the idea...

Í því ert ekki alleini.

The dwarfs part is so strange, especially since they do not feature in the poem after this long catalogue. It seems disproportionate, right? Is this some kind of later addition? One of my translations cuts verses 9–16 entirely, so perhaps they think so!

It's fortunate in a way that Tolkien borrowed so much of this, otherwise I fear it would hold about as much interest as the long genealogies in Genesis. Although hearing the original does at least give you the aesthetic pleasure of it all, which is lost in translation.

What confuses me in this section is the logic of it. Three giant women appear…why does this mean the gods have to suddenly decide on the lineage of the dwarfs? I don't see the connection here.

Also, are we sure that the three giant-women here are the same as the norns who appear a bit later? Larrington notes that ‘some critics have identified them as the fates who appear in v. 20’, but it certainly doesn't seem obvious from the text.

The dwarfs are described as coming ultimately from ‘Brimi’ or ‘Brimir’. Is this the same as the ‘Ymir’ mentioned in v.3?

Yes, I have seen in several places that the dvergatal is generally believed to be a later addition, and is sometimes omitted for that reason. But the names do indeed sound rather wonderful when read out correctly, you can see why Tolkien felt he had to borrow them.

I don't understand the logic either, and suspect that either something has got lost or there is a part of the story we're assumed to know and no longer do. Though I am at least fairly sure that Brimir here refers to Ymir. What's less clear to me is if it's the same Brimir as in verse 36,

en annarr stóð
an other stood

á Ókólni,
at Ókólnir

bjórsalr jötuns,
beer-hall of the giant

en sá Brimir heitir.
and this Brimir is-called

It seems odd that there could be two giants named Brimir. But how can he be entertaining at his beer-hall if his body has been used to create the race of dwarves? The Wikipedia entry for Brimir is as uncertain as I am.