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~Where would you add Seymour? To our group bookshelf? He should already be there..
I can't write a review of him into that linked discussion, because I don't recall ever reading him.
Mod
I wish I'd been paying attention whenever the 400th sign-up occurred. A hearty handclasp and pat-on-the-back was in order. I would have showered that person with confetti and maybe a set of dishes and put the rest on a gift certificate.
Its like when the odometer on your car is at 99,999. You go out for a drive specifically to see it roll over, but then get distracted and miss it!
Hello all,Scott here. just joined the group yesterday as I am loving the Spy/ Espionage genre even though I've barely dipped a toe in yet. I've made the "mistake" of starting with LeCarre and worry everything else will be a pale imitation. hence this post..after reading Tinker Taylor, the Spy who came in from the Cold and a couple other,I'm looking for suggestions that rival the master. (Day of the Jackal was pretty fine also) thanks in advance.
Mod
re: LeCarre just let me harp on my constant refrain: read the Smiley books in order. 'Call for the Dead' first, then 'Cold', then 'Glass' and on from there. Its the most rewarding. If you haven't plunged ahead already, (seems as if you may have mixed things up a little bit) try to pause and set yourself up again with the right chronology. The story takes place in a 'real narrative time'. Smiley is a much older man at the end of the series.
There are few authors to match JLC but Len Deighton is the obvious next choice. His 'Game, Set, & Match' trilogy is the equal of most of LeCarre's stuff. And the individual titles in the 'nameless spy' (aka 'secret files') series are all great one-offs; (several turned into slick Michael Caine movies).
Next, I would nominate the works of Adam Hall. You already know about Frederick Forsythe.
So next would be, Ken Follett.
Going back to older writers: certainly Graham Green and Eric Ambler.
Here's a thread which offers a lot of leads:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...-
Again, a hearty welcome to ye
Thanks Feliks. I had the "Tinker' BBC miniseries and 1965 Criterion collection "Spy who came in' Blu Ray begging to be watched and my OCD would not allow me to watch either without reading them first,hence the reason I skipped around on LeCarre. thanks for the suggestions,I will add to my wish list and go back and read them in order (thanks again OCD) ....I feel LeCarre at his best actually transcends the spy genre and can hold it's own among finer literature ("A Perfect Spy" was astonishing)
Mod
I think I made the same "mistake" of starting with Le Carré, which means it's a struggle sometimes to find anything to live up to it! Indeed that's why I'm putting off reading The Spy Who Came in from the Cold - one of the few of his I haven't yet read - for as long as possible, as contrary as that may sound.Completely agree that Game, Set & Match is arguably as close as you'll come. Might I add - Feliks, I'd be interested to know if you agree - that G,S&M should/could either be preceded or followed-up with Winter; technically it's a prequel, although I can see the merit in reading it after the trilogy (or indeed the trilogy of trilogies!) In its own way, it's brilliant.
Another book I'd mention is The Company. I firmly believe that the vast majority of the best spy fiction is British / MI6 / SIS (maybe a little bit of bias, there, being British myself...), but The Company, along with Charles McGarry, is perhaps the worthiest CIA equivalent.
Other than that, it's worth trying different aspects of the genre; the slow, atmospheric cold war stuff will always be my favourite, but there's an awful lot of other eras / settings / writing styles / pace and so on to discover, so you never know, you may find that you prefer a different "sub-genre" to the sort of material JLC writes anyway! (In which case come back, and I'm sure you'll get loads of recommendations..)
PS I'm new to the group - this is my first post, in fact - but most certainly not new to the genre, but always delighted to make recommendations.
Charles McCarry;s, Tears of Autumn and, to a lesser extent, The Last Supper also belong in the "What's like the best le Carre" conversation along with Deighton's Funeral in Berlin and Berlin Game.If what you seek is less Cold War authenticity and more real life thrillers, then R. E. McDermott is an author to look into. I just finished Under a Tell-Tale Sky and found it excellent.
I've also posted reviews of these books on Goodreads in case you'd like a bit more background and rationale.
Mod
Deighton's single-book smashes (Ipcress File, etc) are dazzling and the pillars of the genre--but simply too short to compare to LeCarre. The style and the scale make it impossible to rank them together. Only when Deighton began longer *sustained* series, did he finally make for a suitable comparison. G-S-M is when he finally made good. Deighton is fun because he has shown he can write in at least three (maybe more) different styles: Harry Palmer, Bernard Samson, and then something like, 'Bomber' which is --in its way--really, arguably better than anything LeCarre has ever done. It's just not espionage, though.
McCarry's 'Last Supper' is his largest single effort --and it is a substantial tale too; with the necessary depth and breadth. Well worth mentioning to anyone seeking something similar to --well, say to 'Tinker Tailor'. It's that kind of book; with memorable characters, history, and atmosphere. Almost--but not quite--an epic in scope. All his others are brief; but McCarry fully does show that he can match LeCarre's psychological-writing --especially with the beautiful 'Secret Lovers'. He really did something fine, there.
Adam Hall is razor-sharp and writes high-end psychological espionage but gives no time or space to lengthy, meandering backstory. It's as if Hall wants to take just the brief flashes of action from a LeCarre novel and expand them--make full-blown actioners from them. And he does so. He provides all the zing and zip that LeCarre omits. Any Hall yarn usually only covers a week of narrative-time at the most; something that would be only given a mere page's worth of mention in a languid, limpid exercise by Lecarre. But it's refreshing because the authorial competence is there in both men. Whenever you weary of leCarre's slow pace, turn to Hall.
'The Company'--haven't read it--is that by Robert Littell? Littell is good but too sleepy/quiet for me. He is very talented but super-quiet in his 'voice'. Haven't been interested in anything by Deighton either, not for a long time. I'd rather go back and re-read his early stuff over again than keep taking gambles with him.
The Company is indeed Littell, yes.He's written a few good cold war books, some average, but that's his "masterpiece" - if that's not too strong a word to use. It's a very long one - it could just as easily have been published as a trilogy, GSM-style.
Thanks for the detailed replies. I now have new author--Adam Hall--and two new-to-me books to add to my TBR lists.
Mod
The Quiller Memorandum (somewhat quiet, debut novel, made into a fine movie)
The Sinkiang Executive (very! high-octane)
The Ninth Directive (set on the streets of Bangkok--astounding)
The Tango Factor (semi-wilderness setting, somewhat more of a survival tale but some truly great moments)
Lukas wrote: "The Company is indeed Littell, yes.He's written a few good cold war books, some average, but that's his "masterpiece" - if that's not too strong a word to use. It's a very long one - it could jus..."
Littell's "The Defection of A. J. Lewinter" is my personal favorite spy novel.
Michael
http://michaelconnick.com
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Feliks wrote: "I've read that one. Unusual choice for a #1 favorite..."Hey, I'm an unusual guy!
Seriously, I found this book to give me the very best "feel" of what it's really like to work in the intelligence community. It's tough for me to put my finger on exactly what about this book did it, but it somehow really made me feel like I was back at work. I think I simply recognized many of the characters in this book.
Michael
http://michaelconnick.com
My two pennies worth...Forgetting the obvious brilliance of Le Carre I would like to give a shout out to Edward Wilson. His Catesby series is atmospheric, highly readable and addictive.
For the classics I don't think Graham Greenes spy novels have been mentioned enough this thread so I'd say Our Man in Havana (for black comedy), A Confidential Agent (noir pre ww2) and Ministry of Fear (Hitchcock-esque spy caper).
For an absolute timeless spy thriller that reads like it was published yesterday I'd say Eric Ambler's Mask of Dimitrios
Yes, to Eric Ambler! And thanks for Edward Wilson. Don't forget Green's Quiet American— great read, great flick.
Jeff, The Quiet American is probably my favourite Greene but I just don't see it as a spy novel as such.
Interesting. Now I need your help. What would Alden Pyle be if not a spy?
I think what Jeff is saying is that it's really a murder mystery set in a war zone where one of the key characters just happens to be a rather obtuse intelligence agent. If so, I would agree with that. It is a wonderful book, though.Michael
http://michaelconnick.com
I guess I see Pyle as a naive, idealistic agent provocateur that meddles in the local politic
Oops posted too soon. ...politics and events rather than gather intelligence like a spy.
Plus the novel is told through Fowler, the cynical journalist.
It's just an opinion and I can see the counter argument
I love characters like Pyle. Add him into the Cold War timeline of the 1950s, and he could be a character fresh out of the CIA-backed National Student Association, Kennan's X article ringing in his ears. Green's book was probably written around the time the battle of Dien Bien Phu was being fought by the French and paid for by the US. Wasn't Pyle a Harvard guy? Had he been from Yale, I would have figured academia was his cover. But a Harvard guy spy? Perish the thought. Maybe he was just a man of good intentions mixed up in a world he didn't really understand. I just purchased a copy of Envoy, the Catesby book, and I look forward to receiving it next week. More to come.
Bradley wrote: "Charles McCarry;s, Tears of Autumn and, to a lesser extent, The Last Supper..."
Tears of Autumn was a stunner. The images, the detail, the fact that a man had lost his ability to write poetry slumming through the world of espionage was a banging great piece of characterization. McCarry's take on the Vietnamese social hierarchy was a dart in the back of the head, better than anything that came out of the Vietnam era. And then to figure in the Kennedy assassination. My goodness. What a book. I could read it again and again. And I do!
Quick (minor, minor) point on le Carre. I recently read "A Most Wanted Man" and also saw the movie. I found movie's focus on Günther Bachmann rather than Tommy Brue (whom the book handles brilliantly, magnificently) kicked the story into a higher gear. The parts the movie left out from the story might well have been left out from the book without losing anything. Loved the idea of the Lipizzaners, though, almost too real for comfort.
Mod
'Tears of ||||||||'--like much of McCarry's shorter works--often gets a bad rep among readers. Most agree that it is finely written but it is often the target of gripes about this-or-that technical/ |||||||| detail. To me, it seems like too-many readers these days are somewhat unable to suspend their imagination and go-with-the-flow of the story.
I think 'Tears' is written fully out according to the standards McCarry established for himself. It is slightly daring in concept. But the execution is impeccable. Maybe readers have issues with what he set out to do?
Anyway I always say: for anyone who doesn't think McCarry can write, check out, 'The Secret Lovers'. From the same 'Paul Christopher' series, and certainly the equal of practically any of LeCarre's books.
For me, the much more troublesome McCarry title is 'Miernik Dossier'.
Jeff wrote: "I love characters like Pyle. Add him into the Cold War timeline of the 1950s, and he could be a character fresh out of the CIA-backed National Student Association, Kennan's X article ringing in his..."You raise some great points Jeff. Seems we're on the same page here. The key for me are the marked differences between the weary cynic Fowler and the 'man of good intentions mixed up in a world he didn't really understand.' And how this wider theme relates to where the Brits and US were at the time geo-politically.
Anyway regarding Edward Wilson, Envoy is the right place to start but the series gets a lot better afterwards. Have fun.
Feliks wrote: "Pithy remarks!The Miernik Dossier is a tough one, but bold. McCarry plays with an operator's perceptions (Christopher), presenting them to the reader as the operator would present them to his handler. But does it work? It's been a while since I read Miernik, but I remember it felt like it was too much a patchwork, which of course it is, by necessity. The problem was Miernik; he was such a lout I didn't care about Christopher's mission. I probably finished the book anyway because it was an interesting exercise in narrative.
Feliks, I had no "technical" problems with "Tears," but who am I to say? The shooting scene, for instance, where Christopher is fired on in a crowd, and he recognizes the aiming stance of his assailants to be of the type taught by our own people, lent a deep sense of reality to the work, at least for me. And there are other examples, like the lights-out car chase. (Isn’t there a similar scene in the Quiet American?)
I should confess to both you and Kev that while I marked the pages of le Carre's "Spy...Cold" with blubbering notes of admiration, I never believed in Leamas's deep cover. Maybe my disbelief comes from the conviction that even the most well prepared and talented members of a service can't escape their own humanity, which is to say, frailty. (Human nature may have cultural variations, but on the whole it's got core elements.) And, it's my belief (based on what, I don't know) that humans are more likely to become Manchurian Candidates under the Leamas-like stresses of dehumanizing internments or assignments. That's the case, for instance, portrayed in the TV series "Homeland," where “Brody” capitulates to his tormentors’ techniques. But, interestingly, it is not the case in the Israeli series "Prisoners of War," from which Homeland was derived. The tortured character of “Oren” never succumbs to his Palestinian enemies. While he appears to go the way of the Manchurian Candidate, he ultimately remains loyal to the IDF.
BTW, Kev, I agree that the wider theme of Brits and Yanks in "Quiet" is key. For me, it was the work's flavor and certainly Green's intention.
Mod
Miscellaneous replies:
There's a lights-out car chase in Adam Hall's 'Tango Factor' which I thoroughly enjoyed. (A good spy needs to be very savvy about automobiles, in my opinion).
The Pollack at the heart of the story ('Miernik Dossier') yes--was so revolting to me, I felt McCarry had made a bad error. He was like a Gouzenko type of figure. Hardly able to evoke any sympathy, so who cares what happens to him?
Alec Leamas: I found his tailspin into drunkenness and unemployment convincing; and then after he was picked up I felt his willingness to be in East Germany credible-- without having to ascribe to him a 'conveniently contrived' change in his beliefs. In other words, he seemed like he was over there out of genuine disillusionment; not out of 'conversion' and not 'on a mission'. LeCarre finessed it well enough for me. Since the suspicious Fiedler's interrogation focused not on whether Leamas had honestly converted (Fiedler was shrewd enough not to believe in any such ruse) but simply dwelt on whether or not Alec was a British red-herring; I myself found no hindrance in the scheme that leCarre laid down. Of course, it all became 'patent' once the tables were turned at a later part of the narrative, but by then so much else is exploded that it was fully okay.
Thanks Jeff!
"I found his tailspin into drunkenness and unemployment convincing..."I bow to you on that one. Thank you. In my reading, I thought Leamas's tailspin was part of the "legend" he needed to find his way out of his service and to enter credibly into Soviet control. The way you put the "tailspin" changes the deal and my POV on the book. It makes Leamas's entry into East Germany a possible act of salvation, as well as intention.
Now, considering my mis-read, I should add that le Carre's characterizations and interactions in "Cold" were hypnotic. Edgy may be the more current and apt word. Only someone like le Carre, who's been on the inside, could understand the tensions and conflicts suffered by the players he writes about, and then successfully convey their internal predicament to us readers on the outside. In fact, who among us readers really knew such tensions existed until le Carre came along to tell us. (Or am I overstating the fact?)
All good spies need good cars. Yes. Or did that start for us with the Aston Martin?
Feliks wrote: "Welcome, glad to have ya.re: LeCarre just let me harp on my constant refrain: read the Smiley books in order. 'Call for the Dead' first, then 'Cold', then 'Glass' and on from there. Its the most ..."
Took your advice and went back and started with 'Call for the Dead' and am reading in order. however, one of the "Smiley's" conspicuous by its absence is 'A Murder of Quality'. it is essential to the JLC/Smiley mythos?
Mod
Yes, George Smiley is the protagonist of 'Murder of Quality' but not at all in his professional capacity as a controller of espionage networks. He's simply asked by his old school to help solve a puzzling murder on campus--they think he is 'some sort of policeman'. So he lends a hand. It's an odd story. You get a glimpse of his personality, his upbringing, his school days--but there's nothing in the tale related to his professional life, espionage, or Karla.
Bravo to you for heeding my suggestion! I look forward to your fresh evaluation of the sequence of the series. You will be well-rewarded, I assure you.
Mod
Jeff! Fine remarks from you in post #33. A pleasure to trade our experiences with these titles.
The fact that an interrogation assumes the forefront of so much of this novel still astounds me. The nuances between Fiedler and Leamas are indeed mesmerizing. Look at how close they become to each other by the later stages of their debate. What I also love is simply the politeness, the courtesy, the sensitivity with which they treat each other. That was the stamp of the war years (and their immediate aftermath). It was an era where few people watched TV; an 'adult' world where most people practiced good manners and speech. A timeperiod where books and conversation were a vital part of life. Thus, LeCarre draws for us these two very intelligent men--men of learning. Their duel is cerebral; their struggle is waged atop a surface of words. And what words! But there's also heart; ethics; tenderness, vulnerability, and cold-bloodedness. All going on at once. Each of these warriors has a mission, and a set of beliefs, and neither flinches away. Is this perhaps the best interrogation in all literature? Could very well be.
Feliks wrote: "Nope, not essential at all. This is a common point of confusion with readers. Yes, George Smiley is the protagonist of 'Murder of Quality' but not at all in his professional capacity as a control..."
just a quick aside, I read A 'Murder of Quality' anyway. even though it added nothing to Smiley's espionage saga, I found this a fascinating in-site to his personality: Smiley himself was one of those solitaires who seem to have come into the world fully educated at the age of eighteen. Obscurity was his nature, as well as his profession. The byways of espionage are not populated by the brash and colourful adventurers of fiction. A man who, like Smiley, has lived and worked for years among his country's enemies learns only one prayer: that he may never, never be noticed. Assimilation is his highest aim, he learns to love the crowds who pass him in the street without a glance; he clings to them for his anonimity and his safety. His fear makes him servile - he could embrace the shoppers who jostle him in their impatience, and force him from the pavement. He could adore the officials, the police, the bus conductors, for the terse indifference of their attitudes. we get so little information regarding Smiley other than others views of him I found this illuminating.
Its been suggested to me that some of our newbs may be too shy to speak up and ask for advice outright.
That really ought not be the case. Not a bit of it! I'm unaware of any elitism in this group. There's no arrogance from long-time espionage readers towards those just setting out!
I wouldn't tolerate such a thing around here. I've got a big shiny hatpin I keep handy for puncturing over-inflated egos. [In fact, I was just booted out of the 'English Mysteries Group' for using it]
And you should know that we uphold 'cheap thrill' spy lit here (the stuff with high body-counts) as well as the more stodgy, stuffy, psychological-based English fic.
So feel free to speak freely about your reading goals. I'm sure we would all chime in to offer some gentle suggestions, and in a very kindly way too.
Here is a place to familiarize yourself with espionage titles:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...-
I often send people here, I know. But it really is useful. There's even a syllabus for new readers, if you read it all the way through.
Anyway let me know if more help in this area, is wanted.
Dzerzh