Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

Flame and Crimson: A History of Sword-and-Sorcery by Brian Murphy.

Interesting pitch about a book on S&S history, with a great commentary section digging up the details in lettters from Moorcock and Leiber on what is S&S.

https://www.blackgate.com/2020/03/15/...

Looks interesting! Thanks for the link

What is Sword and Sorcery? I would like to welcome others to this conversation.

I think it may be productive to think of the elements that make up the genre. But ones that are not severely limiting, like for instance the main character must be a roguish fighter/barbarian. That's too limiting.

Decisive battles. I think we can all agree. Decisive battles, combat, heroic action, the slaying of a terrific beast, or a fiendish sorcerous foe. Plenty of all of that.

The defining of the genre is ever-present. Many worthy book and panels to point toward. Here is one....Joseph A. McCullough wrote a huge, academic journal worthy essay for Black Gate (and SwordAndSorcery.org) ~2006:
https://www.blackgate.com/the-demarca...

But.... you aren't asking to rehash the old stereotypes are you?

You are asking us to think about breaking the mold a bit. That is worthwhile. I wonder if we can list out S&S stories that break the tropes/definitions.... and/or propose other ways to stretch the genre.

Actually, as far as old school stuff goes, I lean toward Clark Ashton Smith's stories. They typically have less action and have sorcerers as protagonists....and many feel they are not S&S. I'm not going to argue that his work is S&S..... but some consider his pulpy/weird/adventure close enough.

S.E. wrote: "The defining of the genre is ever-present. Many worthy book and panels to point toward. Here is one....Joseph A. McCullough wrote a huge, academic journal worthy essay for Black Gate (and SwordAndS..."

I'd also point to Howard Andrew Jones' definition as a strong one - https://goodman-games.com/blog/2020/1...

And I'm also extremely fond of Brian Murphy's, from his book Flame & Crimson (https://www.amazon.ca/Flame-Crimson-H...) because of its flexibility. In short, he establishes seven very common qualities and then suggests that as long as you have some, say four, not necessarily ALL those qualities...then hey, you likely have a sword & sorcery story on your hands.

I think a flexible definition is the most powerful one, for letting the genre grow, for helping resolve the attempts to nail down what S&S is (as much as you ever can resolve such discussions!), and so on. Highly recommend it.

I'm going to give this a thorough read through. Good to know someone else has attempted to define the "Modernized S&S"

Thanks Oliver!

Yes indeed, Joe & Howard wrote terrific definitions for S&S, and RBE has pretty much followed them on its genre page since the start. I'm slowly reading Murphy's book, so no comment there yet.

I've been considered a S&S 'strict adherent' or 'purist' in the past. Doesn't bother me in the least. While for me Conan and REH's cast of similar characters and their respective tales are the epitome (not saying ideal, but I sure do like 'em best!) of S&S, I don't have to have mimicries to call something S&S.

To me, S&S is an attitude.

Not a setting or weaponry. Neither epic or high fantasy or the historical fantastical written darkly or grimly (here's looking at you GRRM) nor the current party favorite grimdark (gag) written without hope.

The attitude is one of burning desire to live, love, slay, repeat through the pursuit of wine, wealth, wenches, and warfare. With a good-natured rogue's sliver of a heart. Nothing more or less.

This is why for me REH's Solomon Kane is not S&S and why the early Indiana Jones is. Why WWF's Macho Man & Hulk Hogan, Riddick, Snake, the Pale Rider are. Would I prefer a Conan-esque figure in a Conan-ish tale? Probably, and that's probably why I love Steve Goble's Calthus so much. Do I have to have Conan copies in derivative stories? Nope.

Give me that S&S attitude in a hero living a life of damning the torpedoes, full speed ahead with the off chance - though more likely than not - of tossing away the gains of the story to save a life in the end.

That's the best S&S storytelling for me.