2015: The Year of Reading Women discussion

I'll edit this post later to something more suitable, but I did want to mention that, in case anybody didn't know, that subfolders only go down one level in Goodreads groups.

This means that we cannot, unfortunately, put this folder under Sylvia Plath, because the file structure doesn't go deep enough for that.
(I'll erase all of the above once the group gets started properly).

For now, let's test it out, and make this our discussion thread for The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath, to officially start on January 2, 2015.

Thanks for setting this up, can't wait :)

I will join in for this one.

Wonderful, guys, I'm getting excited too! Hmm, shall we work out a schedule that we might want to follow more or less? In previous discussions I have done, we'd divide the book into more or less discussable sections, and discuss the sections as we go along until more or less everyone has caught up.

When do we want to finish? In the general Plath thread you mentioned a time span of three weeks, and about 96 pages a week, which sounds doable. Shall we see how it breaks up into chapters?

January 2 it is! :)

Bloodorange wrote: "When do we want to finish? In the general Plath thread you mentioned a time span of three weeks, and about 96 pages a week, which sounds doable. Shall we see how it breaks up into chapters?"

Well.. since we're starting with the Rhys on Feb 1, (we are, right?) we might want a few days breather to wrap this up and just discuss the book in general, because an ending does tend to give one more to chat about, and there are inevitably people who fall behind. So, I would suggest we perhaps aim for that, loosely, but give ourselves more time to wrap up at the end, just in case. (In other words, try to divide the actual reading into 3 weeks but make provision for more or less 4 weeks on our schedules, since we're packing our various discussions quite tightly and doing Ariel on top of it.)

I actually have another book going in Jan. in a different group, and some work-related/academic reading that I'll be doing throughout the year as well, so I don't want to cut my lines too finely.

If we want to divide the book into three sections, the last section could start, quite naturally, with chapter 14 (exactly two thirds of the novel) and a beginning of a new phase in protagonist's life, and we could end the first section either after chapter 7 (35%) or chapter eight (an event takes place the very end of chapter 7 that the protagonist reminisces about at length in chapter 8, and I think we might end with a cliffhanger of sorts).

So, tentatively:
Section I - chapters 1-7? (35% of the novel)
Section II: chapters 8-13 (66% of the novel)
Section III: chapters 14-20.

What do you think?

I think that can work.

Sounds good to me.

Absolutely.
In practice that would mean that we should maybe start reading a day or two ahead of the "official" start date, so that we can give our initial impressions on or around the start date, and then for the first week, we will be commenting on Section I, in week 2 on Section II and in week 3 on Section III and after that we will wrap up for a few days, which will hopefully give us a few days to prepare for the February read.

Perfect! :)

So the reading schedule would be up on the January, 2015 thread then?
Bloodorange's division sounds reasonable. As soon as the schedule is put up, I'll be able to date the next group reading based on the tentative date we finish with this one.

I'm interested. I originally bought a copy in university, back in 2000. Certainly time to get to it.

I just ordered myself a copy and I'm getting very excited about discussing this book with you! I don't really have anyone in my "real life" who reads serious books (except my mom) so I'm curious how reading and discussing will change the reading experience!

Samadrita wrote: "So the reading schedule would be up on the January, 2015 thread then?
Bloodorange's division sounds reasonable. As soon as the schedule is put up, I'll be able to date the next group reading based ..."

I'm not quite sure if I did it right. I tried to follow P.'s instructions.

Do you mean that you think we should add the proposed division of the book there in the group reading schedule as well? I've already said in my post there that we'll be reading it during January. (I'll go add starting Jan. 2)

Otherwise, this thread here is the discussion thread that we'll be using.

Traveller wrote: "I'm not quite sure if I did it right. I tried to follow P.'s instructions.

Do you mean that you think we should add the proposed division of the book there in the group reading schedule as well? I've already said in my post there that we'll be reading it during January. (I'll go add starting Jan. 2)"

I think it will be better if you put up the weekly divisions in the reading schedule there as well so that if some newcomer lands on the page for the first time he/she gets a clear picture of what group readings are taking place in January and in which stage they presently are. That way they can easily choose to join in if they wish to. Sort of in the following way I mean -

January Reading Schedule for 'The Bell Jar' by Sylvia Plath

2/01/2015 - 8/01/2015 - Chapters 1 to 7

9/01/2015 - 15/01/2015 - Chapters 8 to 13

16/01/2015 - 22/01/2015 - Chapters 14 to 20

(Based on Bloodorange's nifty partitions)

So the tentative ending date is 22nd of January.

Thank you, Traveller and Samadrita:) I'm looking forward to making more nifty partitions in the future:))

I have it a bit complicated to start reading before Jan, the 2nd due to family commitments, but I will improvise and comment along as I advance Reading during the first week. Truly excited to be reading Plath with all you and many thanks Trav, Sama and Bloodrange for organizing this discussion thread so proficiently. I take the chance of sending the warmest Christmas wishes to everybody from Barcelona! :)

Samadrita wrote: "January Reading Schedule for 'The Bell Jar' by Sylvia Plath

2/01/2015 - 8/01/2015 - Chapters 1 to 7

9/01/2015 - 15/01/2015 - Chapters 8 to 13

16/01/2015 - 22/01/2015 - Chapters 14 to 20
"

Absolutely Samadrita, thanks! ...but like I mentioned in my post 11, each person might want to start a day or two before Jan 2 just on their ownsome, so that we have something to comment on by start date; and we also need to give leeway for wrapping up at the end, so our tentative finish date will be more towards Jan 25-26, since it is unrealistic to expect of everyone to read like automatons, and different people tend to read at different paces, which tends to result in some people falling behind others, and I feel we should accommodate those who fall behind due to various circumstances. :)

Dolors wrote: "I have it a bit complicated to start reading before Jan, the 2nd due to family commitments, but I will improvise and comment along as I advance Reading during the first week. Truly excited to be re..."

Hmm, a few people have similar issues, so how about we make our official start date January 3 but take it very slow on the first weekend?
Maybe we can accommodate late starters as follows:

3/01/2015 - 9/01/2015 - Chapters 1 to 7

10/01/2015 - 16/01/2015 - Chapters 8 to 13

17/01/2015 - 25/01/2015 - Chapters 14 to 20

What do you think?

I'm equally fine with either arrangement. January 3 would be great.

In order to accommodate everybody, I have set the starting date for January 3. :)

I wonder if we should try this: in order not to make this thread go on too long before we actually get started with the discussion itself, how about we do the discussions re the logistics in the Sylvia Plath folder?

I will add the proposed reading schedule to my post on the group's reading schedule.

But in any case, I think we are more or less agreed that we will start off with Chapter 1-7 on Jan. the third, right? I propose that we start our commenting on chapter 1-3, in order to give everyone a chance to catch up. As soon as most people seem caught up, I suggest we then move on to chapters 4-7. How does that sound?

I will join this one; have always meant to read this. Hopefully the local library will be open this weekend!

"I propose that we start our commenting on chapter 1-3, in order to give everyone a chance to catch up. As soon as most people seem caught up, I suggest we then move on to chapters 4-7. How does that sound?"
Sounds stupendous to me Trav, thanks for making this easy and enjoyable for everybody. I will still do my best to start reading before the 3rd so we can start boiling the stew of comments asap.
Seeing how many people joined up the group is the best Christmas present so far! :) Welcome everybody, can't wait to exchange impressions with you all.

Arghh, all of the copies of the Bell Jar at my local library (which is huge and awesome) are checked out. I am in the hold queue. If it frees up by the 3rd or 4th, I will join, otherwise, I will have to pick a different January read.

I had requested a copy from my local library as well and thankfully it arrived today. It's the HarperPerrenial Modern Classics edition from 2005.

Quite excited about this group read.

Oh good! Yes, time is getting shorter...
Dear friends, please remember that we're only starting on Jan. 3, eh?

Hi, just a note to say that - as illness interfered with some of my plans - I will be AFK until Sunday evening. I will join the conversation before I unpack, I promise;) Happy New Year!

Sorry to hear about that, Bloodorange! How you feel better soon! We can go slow until Sunday, no worries!

I expect to be done with the book I am currently reading in the next couple of days so I will be in good shape for the 3rd, but we'll wait for you Bloodrange. Hope you're fully recovered to greet the New Year.
Oh, and for those who will be reading Plath's "Ariel", don't forget about the two poems posted by Trav in the Ariel discussion thread! :)

Thank you! But I don't want to keep you waiting, especially seeing how ready everyone is to start,and it's judt one day. I'll join the conversation on Sunday.

I don't have iBooks, and I am terrible with reading on screen. Desperation only, but I guess that will be my backup on the 1st, if it doesn't show up tomorrow.

I'm very much looking forward to this. Count me in!

I bought this book yesterday. I am looking forward to reading it and discussing it with you guys!

Oh, goodie, guys, we're gathering steam!

Looking forward to the reading!

My copy is waiting for me at the library!

I started the novel(la?) last night. I must confess that I am used to much, much denser reading material. The style of this novel allows for very fast reading, so I'm wondering if we shouldn't shorten our schedule a bit to avoid boredom.

The book is only 20 chapters long, and I read the first 6 chapters in one short sitting, so I see myself being finished in the not too far future...

I will start reading tonight, if it's a fast read like you said Traveller, I would be more than okay with reading more chapters than planned! Having lots of breaks in between "intervals" is not enjoyable, I think!

I started this morning and although I didn't reach as far as Trav due to time restrictions, I second her opinion. The first person narrative flows easily and the language is casual and refreshingly informal and thus a fast read. Maybe we could divide the novel in two sections, mimicking the swift in the story that happens right half way through in chapter 10 when the downward spiral of Esther's mental state is fully addressed.
My Kindle edition comes with a succulent foreword by editor Frances McCullough that leads me to believe that Plath's simple narrative holds manyfold complex themes and an ongoing criticism of the publishing houses and artificial life of NY, so I infer we might want to spend more time discussing and deconstructing its themes rather than reading the novel. Just an off-the cuff idea... what do you think?

Well, I have in the meantime read chapter 7, and it starts introducing more interesting themes; so how about we stick to Bloodorange's division, but just on a much shorter timescale instead?

In other words, we discuss the setting and background and themes introduced in the first third up to Sunday, since we promised Bloodorange that we would kind of wait for her and she can only join in then, and then we discuss the second division during the week, and then we discuss the concluding third and overall themes next weekend and into the second week of January.
What do you think?

But yes, i hope you see what i mean with that this isn't really a novel that will "keep" when it comes to commentary. There's a kind of immediacy to it that makes one feel a need to comment more or less close to the time that you'd read it.

I was thinking something along these lines, perhaps?

PROPOSED ADJUSTED SCHEDULE
03/01/2015 - 04/01/2015 - Chapters 1 to 7
05/01/2015 - 08/01/2015 - Chapters 8 to 13
09/01/2015 - 14/01/2015 - Chapters 14 to 20 and overall themes

How could I have missed such a long thread? For some reason I stopped received notifications and forgot to take a look at the group discussions. I also got myself hooked into All the Light we cannot see and naively thought would have finished it by today, if I can Ill catch up. Traveller I see you are in a fantastic voyage along Dolors and other good friends reading The Bell Jar. You are right this book is not dense nor very demanding but the interesting thing to follow is her mental decay into major depression. I believe she is the ideal psychiatric patient to follow this very common mood disorder as she reunites one by one all the criteria, from anhedonia to suicidal ideation, so that's interesting. Not a hard book, easy language but following her train of thought is what I think that makes it such a wonderful book.
Dolors, hope you get to enjoy this one, will be alert for your review and happy new year all the way back to Barcelona. :)

I must tell you that I am going through a LOT of disillusionment reading The Bell Jar. I had always assumed Sylvia Plath would be somehow more sophisticated and a nicer person, and I can't help feeling that she's being revealed as a naive, stunted, and rather horrible person.

I had always heard so much about her, and maybe I had believed a bit about the rumors that her husband had some hand in her depression, and maybe I had also equated her a little bit in my mind with Virgina Woolf.

But the picture of her that is emerging of her in my mind, both as a writer and as a person, is light years removed from the picture I have of Virginia Woolf.
Esther appears to me as a highly immature person, stunted in her emotional growth, the source of which is hard to pinpoint in such a situation - is it her disease that makes her stunted, or is it the fact that she was stunted that caused the depression?

In any case, she reminds me very strongly of a young woman with schizophrenia and apparent bipolar syndrome that I know, who happens to be close to the age Sylvia was when she wrote the Bell Jar, around 28 years of age, who seems to have that similar childlike quality that Sylvia expresses especially in her prose.

The person i know, has, besides paranoid delusions, also delusions of grandeur, and i couldn't help wondering if Sylvia didn't also have a bit of that, and yet... when you look at Sylvia's CV, she passed her degree in English Summa Cum Laude.

I don't know, maybe her voice is so similar to the other person i know that i am conflating them in my mind. I think I'm going to try and read more work by Sylvia to give me a more fair and balanced view of her.

Dolors said elsewhere about the above:

Who's not narcissistically self-centered, alienated when confronted with reality and delusions of grandeur and basically selfish during adolescence?
And if you add a mental disorder into the picture the result can be more explosive than a Molotov cocktail.

My reply:
Of course, if she had still been nineteen when she wrote that, I could have understood, but you'd perhaps expect more of a 28-year old?

Also, she was supposedly 19 going on 20 in the time period that the novel reflects back on; but it feels to me as if it is not just the character Esther but also the narrator and the writer of the novel that has those childish, spiteful immature points of view.

But yes, i am only in chapter 10 still at present, so let's see what the entire novel gives us.

When the discussion proper starts, I'll give my more immediate thoughts which i jotted down while i was reading. :)

The approved pathway to adulthood in the US turns people into solipsistic monsters. Maturity's overrated.

Traveller wrote: "I must tell you that I am going through a LOT of disillusionment reading The Bell Jar. I had always assumed Sylvia Plath would be somehow more sophisticated and a nicer person, and I can't help f..."

She is definitely not Virginia Woolf and if that is what you had in mind I see your disillusionment. I think Plath's intellectuality is more perceived in her poetry than in her writings. Have you ever been depressed Traveller? I don't mean sad but in what is called a major depression? Maybe I cannot help you much regarding experience in literature but as a patient undergoing MD I do find it fascinating.
The opening in The Bell Jar is very interesting where she is talking about the death of the Rosenbergs and while having a death fixation she is also projecting subtle anhedonia in her trip to NY. The book starts already with changes in her mood.
You mention something important regarding the paranoid delusions and she does start having such episodes eventually. A patient with MD does not think clearly and present behavioral changes such as failure to find pleasure in daily life activities, sleep disorders, difficulty concentrating or being unavaible to make ordinary decisions. She does develop a clear state with abnormalities in thought process and thought content like you mention such as feelings of depersonalization and delusions seen only in severe mood disorders or psychotic disorders.
So I think that if we would have find a very high level of vocabulary in the text it wouldn't belong to that of a patient undergoing such state of depression, it woulnt seem real.
Agree with you, her voice doesn't match to her personality, almost phony if I may say. Maybe hiding her real emotions.

Traveller wrote: "Dolors said elsewhere about the above:

Who's not narcissistically self-centered, alienated when confronted with reality and delusions of grandeur and basically selfish during adolescence?
And if y..."

Yes, Plath was 28 when she wrote the novella, but this was never categorized as an official biography and in fiction you have countless examples of "adult" writers approaching teenage years like Salinger did with "Catcher in the Rye", so I don't think Plath's age should be a determinant element to judge a fictionalized account of her college years. Also, the fact that a person who is frustrated with her own life and probably dealing with inner and outer pressures and tries to deconstruct her own youth to exorcise the past or tries to move forward through cathartic writing and has the guts of writing her fictionalized auto-biography with raw honesty should also be taken into consideration.
Having said that, I believe that hadn't Plath committed suicide, this novella wouldn't have become such a feminist icon, for she was a poet after all, not a novelist and probably the novel doesn't have the same literary value than her mind-blowing poems.
Will have to read up to where you are though Trav, as I might be missing something of transcendence and discussing with partial knowledge of the matter at hand! :)

I'm on chapter five and have the same impression as you Trav. She is not even close to the sophistication of Woolf. It feels like its written by someone in high school. I'm trying to figure out why this is a classic, and I know I should hold back an opinion but I cannot shake that question.