Old Norse Literature discussion

Sorry about the interruption of service, let's return to the ancient texts. In this week's episode, the creation of Ask and Embla, which I think I more or less understand, and the mysterious verses about "the first war in the world", Gullveig and Heiði, which so far I don't really get. I will do some more looking around.

This part is really top-notch. The sweet nougaty filling.

The threefold endowment of the primordial man-and-woman (whose names are, if only by reanalysis, those of trees) is assuredly Tolkien's wet dream; very interesting that they are at first designated with the neuter pronoun þau. Reminds me of the 'genderless' way we refer to a child (which is itself historically a neuter word), of similarly 'little might'.

I wonder most at what are the 'dews that fall [from Yggdrasil] onto the dales'. If Y is the centerpiece, are they the waters of the world generally, or just the rivers?

Incidentally, it seems incredible that, at least in some form or other, the IE myth of the slaying of the serpent & letting-loose of the waters isn't featured in this thing so far, but then we still have quite a way to go.

I agree, these verses are indeed very fine!

The threefold endowment of the primordial man-and-woman (whose names are, if only by reanalysis, those of trees)

I presume it's not a coincidence that the first verse about Yggdrasil appears here. But why do they have tree-names?

BTW, lovers of mid-20th-century Norwegian trash classics will remember that the hero of Agnar Mykle's Lasso rundt fru Luna and Sangen om den røde rubin is called Ask Burlefot. Given the frequent references to Norse mythology, this is clearly not a coincidence either.

very interesting that they are at first designated with the neuter pronoun þau

My Old Norse is still more or less non-existent (I am learning it from this poem), but isn't þau the normal pronoun? E.g. we find it at the end of verse 1.

I wonder most at what are the 'dews that fall [from Yggdrasil] onto the dales'. If Y is the centerpiece, are they the waters of the world generally, or just the rivers?

I thought it was the rain, but I am really not sure!

The serpent is slain and the waters loosed near the end, verses 53 and 54.

This is great.

The online version has unz as ‘we’ (verse 17), but it must surely mean ‘until’ (like Icelandic uns). Which makes it seem as though we are missing a section just before here.

The ‘three gods’ are apparently Odin, Hænir and Lodur. Am I the only one who has never even heard of Hænir or Lodur? What the hell happened to them in the later legends?

Önd ‘breath (of life)’
óð ‘soul’…interesting pair of words. They both look like they're related to OE oroþ ‘breath’, but here they have differentiated forms and senses. Maybe they're not related at all? (I haven't studied OE for years and never ON.)

I really like the extra veit ek in verse 19 – just a little reminder that she's talking from personal experience! These verses sound beautiful in the recording.

I took the reference to the dews at face value – where does dew in the valley come from? Well, absent a meteorological explanation, from Yggdrasil!

Both of my translations seem to have trouble with the little parenthetical aside scáro asciði in verse 20, which comes in the middle of introducing the Fates.

Það man hon fólkvíg – does the ‘she’ refer to one of the norns, or is this just a switch on the part of the narrator from 1st to 3rd person, but still talking about herself? Presumably the latter, it's a bit weird though.

This is so wonderfully evocative – the idea of recalling the ‘first war in the world’, and of Gullveig, three times burned, three times reborn, and still living.

I was very confused by verses 22 and 23. Wikipedia suggests elsewhere that ‘Gullveig’ and ‘Heid’ may be names for Freyja. In v23, the Æsir are trying to decide whether they should give afráð ‘tribute’ or not – to whom? If Freyja is one of the Vanir, then these verses are both perhaps comments on the cause of the Æsir–Vanir war: there is an attack on someone, and then instead of making peace, there is some kind of demand for tribute…? That's the only way I can make sense of it.

Manny wrote: "But why do they have tree-names?"
I'm not really sure. Morphologically, one is masc. & the other fem., & maybe there's a reason for that (the ash was used for spears, at least among the Greeks, so maybe it had a virile/warlike association?). Or maybe a Christian redaction, to bring names closer to Adam and Eve?

wrote: "isn't þau the normal pronoun? E.g. we find it at the end of verse 1."
In verse 1 it is also neuter, as its antecedent is the neu. pl. spjöll. The masc. nom. pl. is þeir, as in v. 10 where it refers to the male dwarves, and the fem. is þær, as in v. 20 where it refers to the Norns.

Warwick wrote: "They both look like they're related to OE oroþ ‘breath’, but here they have differentiated forms and senses."

Impressive! Your OE word is in fact related to önd, but óðr is cognate with Óðinn

wrote: "does the ‘she’ refer to one of the norns, or is this just a switch on the part of the narrator from 1st to 3rd person, but still talking about herself?"
This screams 'corrupt'. But if we do really read 'hon', I would assume it refers, as you said, to one of the Norns: more specifically Urth as etymologically connected with the past, as Verðandi with the present, and Skuld with the future.

As to verse 22, I really can't follow it at all.

Totally agree about the beauty of the reading!

Warwick wrote: "does the ‘she’ refer to one of the norns, or is this just a switch on the part of the narrator from 1st to 3rd person, but still talking about herself?"

Max wrote: This screams 'corrupt'. But if we do really read 'hon', I would assume it refers, as you said, to one of the Norns: more specifically Urth as etymologically connected with the past, as Verðandi with the present, and Skuld with the future.

I am not convinced that this is corrupt. If you click on hon to get the concordance, you will see that there are many places where the Völva refers to herself in the third person. It just seems to be a convention of the poem, or maybe even of the genre, I don't know.

Good point about which one it is. Since we get to see both the past and the future, logically it should be Urð speaking at the beginning and Skuld at the end (and maybe Verðandi at various points in the middle, e.g. in verse 18 about Yggdrasil). I had until now assumed that only one Völva was speaking, but in fact I suspect it is all three?

Warwick wrote: This is so wonderfully evocative – the idea of recalling the ‘first war in the world’, and of Gullveig, three times burned, three times reborn, and still living.

Yes! Mysterious, but so evocative. It reminds me of the bits in LoTR when the more instructed characters mention episodes from the First Age without giving context or details, and the hobbits are awed. Surely Tolkien was at least in part inspired by the narrative techniques used here?

I was very confused by verses 22 and 23.

Me too. Apparently people don't know much about Gullveig, though there seems to be a widespread belief that she is the love of gold. That would certainly make sense, but I don't know how much evidence there is except for the name sort of suggesting it.

Wikipedia suggests elsewhere that ‘Gullveig’ and ‘Heid’ may be names for Freyja.

I have trouble believing that... Heiði (if I understand correctly, the reborn Gullveig) is a personification of malevolence,

æ var hon angan
ever was she a joy

illrar brúðar.
(to) evil women

Surely she can't be the gracious and loving Freyja?

True, though maybe ‘Freyja’ is a later, more loving hypostasis of this character. From reading around, the reason for proposing this correspondence seems to be just that Freyja is also skilled in seið, which seems a slender justification – but one that a lot of commentators seem to accept.

I love the line about wicked women! It makes Heið seem pretty badass.

Maybe there is a Mists-of-Avalon-style retelling where Heið is the main character?

I still have trouble believing that she can be Freyja. Like, Óðinn spears and burns her to death three times, but then they end up getting married?

Treat 'em mean…

Maybe the initial scene with Caractacus and Truly from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang is a gender-reversed reference to this episode? She thinks he's on fire and throws a bucket of water over him, which totally pisses him off. But after sorting out that little misunderstanding, they fall in love and live happily ever after. Note that Roald Dahl, the scriptwriter, was Norwegian and would probably have known the story.

Going back to Gullveig: it seems, after looking around some more, that she is the witch whose heart Loki ate, the shameful deed that introduced true evil into the ranks of the Æsir. More discussion here.