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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK NINE - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: LANDSLIDE - January 26 - February 1 - Chapter Eight - No Spoilers, Please
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
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For the week of January 26th-February 1st we are reading Chapter Eight of Landslide
The ninth week’s reading assignment is:
Week Nine-January 26-February 1
Chapter Eight-Valley of the Black Pig-pages 225 to 254
Chapter Overview and Summary
Valley of the Black Pig
President Johnson returns from Bethesda Naval Hospital following his fever, due to his bronchial infection. Johnson outlines his plans to Congress for Medicare, federal education spending, and poverty alleviation. US forces begin bombing North Vietnam. Racial violence erupts in Selma, Alabama, putting more pressure on passage of the Civil Rights Act, which in turn puts more pressure on Johnson's other legislative initiatives.
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Therefore I am opening the discussion threads early in case of power outages where I am.
Please feel free to carry on and open up the discussion.
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Some people get all the luck.
NYC where I am is going to get hit, too. But we should be fine in terms of safety.
I was glad to read about Selma in this chapter so I have background for the movie. I'd read Remembering America: A Voice from the Sixties by Richard N. Goodwin, which was quoted in this chapter and I highly recommend it. Chapter Three of that book, which has nothing to do with LBJ, was the source material for the movie "Quiz Show."
by Richard N. Goodwin
You do forget that Selma played a major role for LBJ to make his move on the Voting Rights Act.
So, we begin with LBJ sick and going to the hospital. After JFK's assassination, you can understand a lot of people being worried. This was also before the 25th Amendment was passed which helped clarify the language for the vice president to become president.
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I think so - thought you were around these parts. Some snow showers underway but we are told the best is yet to come. Thanks Bryan.
Update: Starting in earnest
It snowed a bit, right now it isn't. I just checked NWS and they've lowered the estimates of total snow for NYC - still a major storm though.
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"Johnson was divided between two fantasies - one of utopia, the other of ruin." (Reading on Kindle so not sure of page number). The more of these types of comments I read the more I agree with others that have asked/comment about the source material. These quotes amount to conclusions that have been drawn. We see an LBJ that fluctuates wildly between hot and cold. It is not hard to imagine that almost any leader at this level would have doubts and ghosts that balance out vision and faith in their direction. I believe this would be normal at least at some level for every president we have seen in office.
For those of you who can easily reference the end notes are comments such as the above being cited or are they author conclusions from his own research of the source materials?
Bentley wrote: "It is not going to be good where I am so I think we need to get ready. There could be a problem with outages which can be more of a problem. But stay warm (smile) and of course read."Be safe. I'm glad this chapter discussed Selma to really explain the story better.
I found this quote very interesting: "I knew from the start that the '64 election had given me a loophole rather than a mandate and that I had to move quickly before my support disappeared". pg 234-235.This scenario of eroding support happens to almost every president. Bush / Obama recent examples of what can happen in election mid-terms. Having never been a big fan of LBJ, I respect his political savvy in recognizing this and his need to act quickly to get his agenda passed. Not sure if any other presidents have similar quotes but I found this one very eye opening into the mind of LBJ.
And stay safe over there Bentley. Here in Dayton, OH we got the beginning of that storm. Only dumped about 3" though but had freezing rain before the snow...made for a mess but nothing like what you're getting.
Helga: we are reaching the 50th anniversary of Bloody Sunday in March. A timely chapter, indeed.
Michael: the author uses a number of sources such as secondary material, newspapers/magazines, archival material, and presidential recordings.
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Yes, thx and I was glad too.
Michael,He also quotes from Lady Bird's White House Diary, which should be a very reliable source for Lyndon's intense moods.
You are right about the tremendous stress that any leader would face under his circumstances.
by Lady Bird Johnson (no photo)
Kressel wrote: "I was glad to read about Selma in this chapter so I have background for the movie. I'd read Remembering America: A Voice from the Sixties by Richard N. Goodwin, which..."I too am interested in Selma and found this part the most intriguing of the chapter. Amazing that these events happened so recently in our country's history. And sad.
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Very true David
@Ann - yes Ann good job
I found this information on p. 237 very disturbing.Darman quotes historian Stanley Karnow who said that during the Vietnam War the U.S. military would deliver to "an area the size of Texas, triple the bomb tonnage dropped on Europe, Asia and Africa during World War II." p. 237
What a tragedy!
Darman's account of Johnson's serious doubts about the Vietnam War from the very beginning is interesting. These doubts are less prescient when viewed in the context of his super anxious personality - always expecting the next disaster. Worry was part of his nature.
Finally, Darman makes an excellent point that historians who criticze Johnson's involvement in the Vietnam War have the advantage of knowing that the U.S. won the Cold War. He writes:
...after the rapid, dramatic collapse of the Soviet Union, it began to look in retrospect as though America's triumph in the Cold War had been assured all along. In that light, Johnson's preoccupation with the "domino theory" and the high stakes in South Vietnam looked silly and his prosecution of the war in Vietnam unforgivable." pp. 239-240
Several presidents, many military and political advisers, and lots of Congressmen were responsible for the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. We should not be too harsh in our judgments, but in my opinion there is not much point in studying history unless we try to learn from it.
"We should not be too harsh in our judgments"Yeah we should. It was an horrendous mistake rooted in willful ignorance. Of course, Asian women and children bore the brunt of the suffering at the hands of of those wielding the most advanced weaponry technology of the day. Nothing new there. Native Americans can tell you about that.
But then again, in contrast to the technology we unleashed on Asian women and children at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Vietnam was child's play.
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Darman quotes historian Stanley Karnow who said that during the Vietnam War the U.S. military would deliver to "an area the size of Texas, tripl..."
What I recall in what I have read is that for a great deal of time the US was not doing what it needed to win the war - the air force had to deal with extremely restrictive rules of engagement and that the forces were not allowed to do what was necessary resulting in a war that could not be won. There seem to be some very different versions of what went wrong and why. But it certainly was a conflict that many presidents had us involved in. And our policy with Vietnam was quite wishy washy. I have added some resources for you in the glossary. And by the way I think the Vietnam veterans never got the credit and the respect that they deserved and I think that was sad.
There were 47,424 of our men who died in combat in Vietnam, 10,785 through other deaths in Vietnam for a total of 58,209 men and women. There were another 153,303 wounded for a total of dead and wounded of 211,454 men and women. There are another 2,489 missing in action. I think we need to think about these folks first. None of them asked to be in this war. Additionally Martin I hate to say this but I have visited Pearl Harbor and do not feel the same feelings that you do - in World War II - 405,399 of our men were killed and another 670,846 wounded. The Japanese were also guilty of war crimes never mind the Pearl Harbor attack when negotiations were supposedly still going on - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese...
I feel that war should be as a last resort. I think Ann is correct in that we should not be too harsh in our judgments. But let us get back to the chapter at hand. We do have a large World War II folder as well as a Native American folder. Also, we have a Book as a Whole thread for off topic discussions.
I just finished the chapter. It was interesting to read how Vietnam and the Great Society programs were tied together ( pg. 243, "Vietnam would be the handmaiden of the Great Society"). I want to say, "Oh, you idiot, there's no way that will work" - but I have the benefit of knowing what did happen. LBJ was acting from his own experiences; thinking about Munich and the "loss" of China to Communism would have led him to believe that Rolling Thunder and the deployment of the first land troops would work. We believed that the Communists were essentially wimps and would back down to a show of force. Also, from all the discussion of the movie "Selma" I was surprised that there wasn't more detail in the book about it. I expected that section to be longer and have more examples.
Tomi wrote: "I just finished the chapter. It was interesting to read how Vietnam and the Great Society programs were tied together ( pg. 243, "Vietnam would be the handmaiden of the Great Society"). I want to..."You are so correct on the benefit of hindsight!
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Tom - the book really wasn't about Selma - it came up in the discussion of LBJ and his portrayal in the film.
I think it was his predecessors and his predecessor's aides who influenced LBJ. And yes we do know the ending (smile).
Ann wrote: "I found this information on p. 237 very disturbing.Darman quotes historian Stanley Karnow who said that during the Vietnam War the U.S. military would deliver to "an area the size of Texas, tripl..."
This quote about Johnson's decisions regarding Vietnam struck me as well. It is unfair to rake certain historical decisions over the coals 20 years after the fact with the knowledge that we have. In Johnson's day there was a very real fear that the communists were going to take over the world one country at a time. In Korea the UN was fighting a communist invasion from the north while the French were fighting the Viet Minh in Vietnam. Korea was followed by the Cuban missile crisis and a few other small brush wars. By the time Kennedy and Johnson were dealing with Vietnam the French had lost their war and it would have appeared that communist forces were gaining ground. I think given these things that we can understand why certain decisions were made.
Regarding Vietnam1) We didn't learn from the French defeat
2) Johnson could have used his immense victory to withdraw. It would have raised a lot of concerns, but, from what Darman says, Johnson suspected fairly early on that the war could not be won. He just was too insecure himself to be the one to lose it.
Hi folks - here are my notes before I read any of your comments - There are some very interesting points in this chapter that I will note for myself and share.
Pg. 230 para 4 – I didn’t realize that LBJ had considered running against Ike in 1956. I was only 12 but if I consider Adlai Stevenson, as I remember him who ran for President in the first two elections I was really old enough to consider, who lost to Ike for both of his elections LBJ is a far distance from Stevenson. I think to defeat Eisenhower would have been so so difficult. He personified winning WW II and he had ended Korea etc.
Pg. 232 para 1 – do not forget Medicare – think of your parents and or grandparents and their security from ever-increasing health expenses in their senior years – accelerated by increasing life spans and increasing medical technologies.
Pg. 233 para 3 Gerald Ford – would not obstruct - I think that Ford was a real patriot – steady – doing what is fair & good for the country– stepping in for Agnew during the Nixon administration – guiding the country through the trauma of Nixon’s resignation. I always remember that he was the guy that was so untarnished that he could be smoothly approved for the VP job after the Agnew resignation.
Pg. 235 Para 2 to 4 – illustrates that LBJ’s thinking of / focusing on congress was based upon his years there. So different from Kennedy or Ike I think – Reagan too and as I think most of (maybe all) our Presidents in my memory.
Pg. 238 last para. – on Vietnam – if he really felt the only choices were “full on war or disgraceful defeat” with
Pg. 244 para 2 not seeing “any way of winning” – I have to shutter at the thought of the 57,000 who died there. (that of course is just the American military – plus the civilians on all sides and the North Vietnamese)
Pg. 252 para 2 - Civil rights – so LBJ broke from Southern Democrats over Selma (I wonder what Darman thinks of the movie and LBJ as portrayed there)
Peter wrote: "Regarding Vietnam1) We didn't learn from the French defeat
2) Johnson could have used his immense victory to withdraw. It would have raised a lot of concerns, but, from what Darman says, Johnson ..."
I did not say we learned from the French defeat. In fact we made many of the same mistakes as the French. What I was pointing out is that the French defeat would have made it seem like communism was advancing which was a concern at the time. I agree that Johnson had the numbers to back out, but can we really, honestly, say we would have done things differently? I think the point Darman makes is that it is easy to look back and see the mistakes because we have information those leaders, at that time, did not possess.
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Darman quotes historian Stanley Karnow who said that during the Vietnam War the U.S. military would deliver to "an area the size of ..."
There really was that reality back then. Think of it as being viewed as the islamic fundamentalists of the 60s. Or being seen as Nazism was viewed during World War II.
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1) We didn't learn from the French defeat
2) Johnson could have used his immense victory to withdraw. It would have raised a lot of concerns, but, from what Darman says, Johnson ..."
The issue is that we have a skewed version of history and what really happened. What really happened is that Congress did not follow through in its promises to South Viet Nam. For example if we did that to South Korea - you can imagine what would happen. The country just wanted out because too many of our young men were dying and the country could not fathom - what for? They did not see or want to see the domino effect - if fact they treated the Vietnam veteran very poorly at the time.
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There are some very interesting points in this chapter that I will note for myself and share.
Pg. 230 para 4 – I didn’t realize..."
@Vince -
Yes, I agree about Ike - maybe Marshall would have had a chance I think but others would not win against a successful general in World War II.
Medicare is big and it has helped many seniors in the past and now. Without it and the huge cost of healthcare - they would be doomed.
Gerald Ford - I respect of course all presidents but for me Ford was lackluster.
LBJ had it right - you need Congress to make your vision a reality - without that cooperation you have presidents who cannot get anything done except give good speeches.
Yes, he too had a distorted view. So many wonderful young men with their lives ahead them died there. Remember too they were drafted. The draft did not end until January 27, 1973.
You should ask Darman what he thinks on the Q&A.
Thoughtful comments and notes Vince - thank you
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1) We didn't learn from the French defeat
2) Johnson could have used his immense victory to withdraw. It would have raised a lot of concerns, but, from what Darman ..."
@Michael - very true
Of course, the main victims of the Second Indochina War (1955-1975) were the Vietnamese and neighboring peoples themselves. Based on several studies of casualties, deaths in the Vietnam War for the years 1955 to 1975 may have exceeded 2 million persons in the countries of Vietnam (both North and South), Cambodia, and Laos. Civilian deaths caused by both sides amounted to a significant percentage of total deaths, perhaps from 30 to nearly 50 percent. Civilian deaths caused by communist forces, which included the Viet Cong, North Vietnamese Army, Pathet Lao and Khmer Rouge, mostly resulted from assassinations and terror tactics. Civilian deaths caused by the armed forces of the governments of South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, the United States, South Korea, and other allies were primarily the consequence of extensive aerial bombing and the use of massive firepower in military operations conducted in heavily populated areas. The nature of the war often made it difficult to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants."
...Estimates for the number of North Vietnamese civilian deaths resulting from US bombing range from 50,000–65,000. Although information is sparse, American bombing in Cambodia is estimated to have killed between 40,000 and 150,000 civilians and combatants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_...
Then there was the "19 million gallons of herbicides [dropped by the U.S.} over 4.5 million acres of land in Vietnam from 1961 to 1972." This caused many birth defects and great ecological damage.
http://www.history.com/topics/vietnam...
http://makeagentorangehistory.org/age...
Question: Did Lyndon Johnson have much interest in or experience with foreign policy? If he didn't, can this also explain his reluctance to challenge his advisers?
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Also folks do not give LBJ enough credit. He tried to use restraint at the beginning and was criticized for it. He tried to end the war with bombing and was criticized for it - he tried to just bomb supply lines and was criticized for it. And finally he tried to bring them to the negotiating table and Nixon took credit for it.
See Operation Rolling Thunder: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/...
As far as the casualties and I do not dismiss them - frankly I am concerned about the deaths of our own young men. Jane Fonda had a lot to say at the time and she was never forgiven by the men who fought that war and others. She herself has apologized a million times - but let us face it - going back and trying to rehash Vietnam is not going to bring back the folks who died in that war or the 80 million who died as a result of World War II from all countries. I really do not want to rehash this "here on this particular thread" Ann if you don't mind. But feel free to rehash this in depth and in detail on any spoiler thread in this folder or others that I have provided links for. This is a topic that should be discussed in depth but not on this non spoiler thread.
We do have a Vietnam War thread and that is a great place to discuss all topics related to the Vietnam War (including Agent Orange in depth) which are not part of this book's main discussion - here is the link for those folks who want to drill down on these topics - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I think that if you are looking at events in hindsight and if you are judging them that way too - then that is a problem because so many things have occurred in the past that we should try as a global community to put behind us.
There were resolutions against this as early as 1966 and this had been a tactic of the British earlier and had been developed for use since the 1940s and 50s (would have been used in World War II if the war had continued). In fact, these herbicides like Agent Orange have been used widely by many nations for other purposes and I question the safety of that use as well. Also check your weed and feed products for your lawn - 2,4-D is one of the oldest legally available pesticides on the market. Another name for one of the major ingredients used in Agent Orange, is 2,4-D (2,4-dichlorophenoxy acetic acid) and it is widely used for agricultural purposes.
Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/agent-ora...
Again we think it is distasteful now but at the time was part of warfare use and also non warfare use. I think it is and was a bad idea and hopefully will never be used again. There are cleanup programs going on (funded by the US) but these will take years.
See the glossary - this is also a spoiler thread where extensive sidebar discussions can also take place - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
In fact on any spoiler thread - sidebars can take place on any ancillary subjects not covered in depth in the book and we welcome them too - we only ask that you be civil and respectful.
I think this chapter highlights the duality of LBJ very well. His public, confident image speaking on his initiatives in Congress of "...full employment...fuller lives." (p. 236), as well as his stance on Vietnam and his actions after Selma. Then his depressive side with the urgency to hurriedly pass the legislation before the tide turns and his doubt that victory could be attained in Indochina. I am fascinated by how effective he could be while giving into doubt so much.
Bentley,Of course, you are right about hindsight, but how else can we determine whether the policy was justified or not? Johnson's role in escalating the war in Vietnam to a major American land and air war is part of his legacy.
The statistics I quoted cover far more than the period in this book, and I will try to restrict further comments to Johnson's role during that period.
I graduated from high school in 1965. The young men of my generation had to do most of the fighting. I remember the period well. It is hard to be neutral, but I will make the effort.
Brian said: "I am fascinated by how effective he could be while giving into doubt so much."Great observation.
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Of course, you are right about hindsight, but how else can we determine whether the policy was justified or not? Johnson's role in escalating the war in Vietnam to a major American land an..."
I think extensive sidebars (on any spoiler threads) are great - but I think we need to move along the discussion here. otherwise the book and discussion are being held hostage to a sidebar discussion topic. Take the sidebar to any discussion spoiler thread in this folder - glossary, bibliography, Book as a Whole and I know folks will join in on the discussion. There is even a Vietnam thread. I just want to move forward here. Thank you Ann for your cooperation in advance since this is a non spoiler thread. We try to be lenient but then we have to rein everybody back in (smile) - and I understand how emotional a topic this is.
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Brian, I think he agonized over every decision - every single one. That is really overwhelming for anybody who does that - especially a president.
Martin wrote: ""We should not be too harsh in our judgments"Yeah we should. It was an horrendous mistake rooted in willful ignorance. Of course, Asian women and children bore the brunt of the suffering at the h..."
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I say here here.
Where was LBJs morality? How many Vietnamese died? He knew bombing would have tremendous collateral damage.
LBJ - two daughters and no sons as I recall
Bentley wrote: "Vince wrote: "Hi folks - here are my notes before I read any of your comments - There are some very interesting points in this chapter that I will note for myself and share.
Pg. 230 para 4 – I ..."
Gerald Ford - lackluster - correct - but admirable taking us through possibly our biggest challenge to the continuity of the Presidency as we knew & still know it.
Not exciting - only Betty - no Marilyn, Monica etc etc
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Grand Expectations: The United States, 1945-1974 (other topics)Vietnam: A History (other topics)
A. Lincoln (other topics)
A. Lincoln (other topics)
Lady Bird Johnson, A White House Diary (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Robert A. Caro (other topics)James T. Patterson (other topics)
Stanley Karnow (other topics)
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For the week of January 26th - February 1st, we are reading Chapter Eight of Landslide
The ninth week's reading assignment is:
Week Nine - January 26th - February 1st
Chapter Eight: Valley of the Black Pig (pages 225-254)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on December 1st.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up January 26th
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy, Jill, Bryan, and Jerome.
Welcome,
~Jerome
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Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Landslide - What Do I Do Next?
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