Victorians! discussion

This third instalment saw things take a decidedly graver turn, in every setting and for every character, difficulties, problems to deal with, loss, and more loss to come; but also this week we saw another dinner party (a very different one than in week 1 amidst the celebrations for Edith’s wedding), and Margaret receive her second proposal.

Places:
The places we were at this week were pretty much the same as last week—the homes of the three sets of characters we are principally following—but this time it seemed they were simply spaces that witnessed or were the background to the events taking place for the most part.

The Thornton home: the Thornton home is the site of much this week—a dinner party for starters, a lavish one—once again in line with the need to show power and wealth as Piyangie pointed out last week; power and authority is also witnessed at the party in John Thornton himself who comes across in a different light than when he is in the Hale home, for instance; but the second scene of importance played out at the Thornton home is so different—it becomes the target of an unruly and frenzied mob of workmen and women who seem ready to turn violent at the drop of a hat, and do when they injure Margaret; and it is at the Thornton home too that Margaret’s actions are misinterpreted.

The Hale Home: This week the house sees Mrs Hale’s illness take a more serious turn and Mr Hale finally becoming aware of the fact; and also the impact of the illness on Mrs Hale in terms of her wanting to see Margaret go to the party (live vicariously through her), and wanting to see Frederick one last time.

The Higgins home: Here we saw a lot of misery this week; the prelude to the strike saw Bessy being uncomfortable at the very idea of the strike which would cause so much suffering; then we witness the conversation with Boucher, whose family is on the verge of starvation and hear their plight; then poor Bessy dies, and we find Nicholas heart-broken and wanting to drink.

People:
Margaret: Margaret once again finds herself called on to be the strong one, the one that takes all the action; whether it is giving comfort to poor Bessy, or her mother—supporting her father when he finds out, having to go out and arrange to borrow the water bed, or write to Frederick because her mother is fretting and wanting to meet him; on the other side, in the events at the Thornton home, protecting Mr Thornton from the agitated workers (it seemed natural for her to go since she was the one who sent him down, expecting rationality where there was none), one wonders about the difference in social mores as well—Margaret considered what she did but natural for her to do, yet the Thorntons (mother and daughter) at least interpret it as forward of her, something that would reflect on her negatively if Mr Thornton didn’t propose.

Mr Thornton: We see a few different sides of him in this segment; the confident businessman speaking at the party while at the same time plagued by worry over the state of things; having arranged to worked from Ireland to come in, taking the striking folk head-on; and then the lack of confidence (in a sense) when he goes to propose, and a broken heart when he is refused yet not wanting to rid himself of his feelings; he continues to assist the Hales as he can even taking a gift of much-needed fruit to Mrs Hale; so while Margaret may feel offended, Mr Thornton does not allow her contempt to give rise to any bitterness in himself. That said a lot about him, don’t you think?

Mrs Thornton: I felt we saw a slightly more positive side of Mrs Thornton here in the sense that while we know she did not take to Margaret at all, for her son’s sake, she is prepared to actually like her, to get along, even begins to prepare the linens; when he is refused, one can understand her hate getting deeper too—after all not everyone can be magnanimous

Boucher: Boucher’s state and that of his family illustrate many a worker’s plight—wanting, no, needing better wages to survive (he being the only working man in the house), and yet starving completely to the point of death when he isn’t. He joins the more violent mob but can one really blame him?

Mrs Hale: Her condition takes a turn for the worse and she wants to see her son once before her death; this one understands but I still did wonder why she would insist on it to that extent when she was well aware what the consequences would be for him, were he caught; perhaps one can attribute it to her illness; but once again, it is Margaret on whom the burden falls, she wants her father to be home but I feel he too would have left it to her to decide or at least to take action.

Mr Hale: once again, the fainting spell when he learns of his wife’s state showed him to be a weak man, perhaps in health too.

Nicholas: One rather felt for Nicholas Higgins in this segment; his plans for a peaceful strike, one calculated to get the millowners to bend are thwarted by the violent group; and then he loses Bessy; it wasn’t unexpected but yet since she had continued this way for long, he would have expected her to go on, perhaps, for a while longer.

Events:
The dinner party: A very different one from that in the Shaw household; with a lot of talk of business; It was interesting how both the ladies who were ill, Mrs Hale and Bessy were as interested in Margaret attending the party as the other, wanting (Mrs Hale) to choose her dress, to see her dressed up (Bessy)—this giving them something pretty, something pleasant to look forward to amidst their pain; and on matters of dress, I also found Bessy and Margaret’s conversation quite interesting reflecting both perceptions of class/society perhaps (in the former’s surprise at the latter having been invited) and knowledge (from Bessy’s having worked with textiles)

The strike: takes a serious turn with a frenzied mob resorting to violence rather than the peaceful protest planned; and is as expected raising problems for both sides; no solution in sight so far.

The proposal: Margaret’s second, and at this point more unwelcome to her than even the first; it seemed to me like Mr Darcy’s first proposal from Pride and Prejudice, but with positions reversed.

Mrs Hale’s request: it seems we will get to meet Frederick soon

Bessy’s death: Poor Bessy, one does feel for her; the same age as Margaret and such a different fate.

What did you think of this week’s chapters?

Lady Clementina wrote: "The proposal: Margaret’s second, and at this point more unwelcome to her than even the first; it seemed to me like Mr Darcy’s first proposal from Pride and Prejudice, but with positions reversed...."

I too always felt a similarity between Mr. Thonton's and Mr. Darcy's first proposal. But as to the rejection, while I fully understood Elizabeth's reasons, Margaret's was more obscure. Margaret seems to me up to now to be wavering between like-hate attitude when it comes to Mr. Thornton. I haven't read this segment yet and pretty excited to see how I'll comprehend the situation this time.

Piyangie wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "The proposal: Margaret’s second, and at this point more unwelcome to her than even the first; it seemed to me like Mr Darcy’s first proposal from Pride and Prejudice, but wi..."

I found them comparable because like Mr Darcy looked down on Elizabeth's family, Margaret has the same sort of reasons--her opinion of tradespeople. She might admire certain things about him but her attitude in general is to look down on tradespeople.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "The proposal: Margaret’s second, and at this point more unwelcome to her than even the first; it seemed to me like Mr Darcy’s first proposal from Pride and ..."

I understood your comparison which is rightly done, Mallika. What I meant was the reason for Margaret's refusal was never clear to me. Margaret has a strong prejudice against tradespeople, that is true. But Margaret's character strikes me as a woman not to judge anyone unfairly. This is why I cannot reconcile myself to the idea that her rejection is based on the class to which he belongs. But perhaps, that is my romantic notion. Anyway, Margaret's feelings toward John has exceedingly puzzled me in my previous reads. I hope if I can to understand them better this time.

I have a few more chapters to complete this segment, but so far enjoyed it very much. The heightened of the strike comes out violently and a frenzied mob comes storming into Marlborough mills. This event is one of the most suspenseful and dramatized event of the whole story - the clash between "ruthless' master and hunger driven desperate "hands".

This is then followed by different sorts of drama - Mr. Thornton's proposal and Margaret's rejection. It was an ill-timed proposal but Margaret's protective action awakened Mr. Thornton's hidden love for her. Margaret's rejection had many aspects. She detested his view as a master. She viewed him as an oppressor (although she saved him out from dangerous situations in which he was the oppressed one). And as Lady C has said above, she downright looked down upon him as being a tradesman, below her class (whichever is she falls to). Also, the distressing condition which she is in and the whispered words which interpreted her action of defending Mr. Thornton from a shameful and scandalous point of view made her more unreasonable and bitter when she was forced with Mr. Thornton's unwanted address to a point of rudeness. These are the reasons I think prompted Margaret to act as she did. I would love to know other's views on this. I would not like to miss anything this time. :)

The proposal comes completely out of the blue for Margaret. I felt this way the first time I read it and now again. I think she doesn't quite know what to do.
Now I do believe Mr. Thornton truly fell in love with Margaret, though what he should have done is start courting her.
The whole set-up is a bit strange. Mrs. Thornton over-reacts when it comes to appearances. Having risen through the ranks as she has, she isn't quite as self-assured and comfortable in her new socio-economic class. On the other hand, she is also not quite ready to relinquish her place at her son's side, she is actually quite jealous, though she tries to hide it. If there is to be a new Mrs. Thornton, all relationships will shift and her access will be diminished. She will no longer be privilege to many conversations or hear the latest news for he will share them with his wife.

The water bed is an interesting detail. Until I read it in this story I didn't know they go back that far. According to Wikipedia, they were invented by a Scottish physician, Neil Arnott, in 1833 to prevent bedsores with invalids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterbed

Kerstin wrote: "Having risen through the ranks as she has, she isn't quite as self-assured and comfortable in her new socio-economic class...."
This may not have been entirely the case for her--if I remember right, the family was well off, but her husband lost everything and committed suicide, leaving them to fend for themselves.

Kerstin wrote: "Now I do believe Mr. Thornton truly fell in love with Margaret, though what he should have done is start courting her...."
He seems to like her right from the start but her haughtiness leads him to keep his feelings to himself. From the way he saw it, possibly her action in protecting him showed that she had feelings for him too-but from her perspective, she went out since she was the one to have sent him to speak to the workmen. As I wrote above also, it was interesting to me that she didn't see her action as too forward or embarrassing while the Thorntons did.

Although there have been some comments about Margaret’s growing maturity, she often acted impulsively, like a child following instincts without any preconceived motives. Her actions in protecting Mr. Thornton were examples of this, revealing her strength of character and her willingness to uphold right against wrong. If there were any feelings for Mr. Thornton they were buried deep in her subconscious. Her reaction to his proposal was also instinctive. She was unnecessarily hard with him and yet afterwards felt a sense of regret for her attitude which she couldn’t explain to herself.
He was a man unlike any other she had met, who possessed a passionate intelligence like she herself possessed. Even though she didn’t agree with some of his notions she admired his vigour in pursuing his ambitions. Compared with Henry, who had intelligence but used it to conform with the society around him, Mr. Thornton used his intelligence to innovate, change and speculate on new ideas and this excited Margaret albeit in ways she couldn’t yet understand. Margaret’s admiration was tempered however, by her lingering prejudices. Her inability to explain her harshness towards John Thornton was due to that subconscious battle raging within her.
The strike and subsequent riot at Thornton’s mill was the beginning of Margaret’s development towards understanding of who she was and what she wanted. Her learning came from the trials within her own family, the tribulations within the Higgins family and every meeting, however brief, with John Thornton.

At this point I see Margaret as someone who is just reacting. She hasn't had a significant break from all the new tasks, duties, and new impressions thrust at her: the move, the new living quarters, her mother's terminal illness, her father's inability to handle stuff, suffering among the working poor, and then on top Mr. Thornton. Talk about stress! and she is only 19.

Kerstin wrote: "At this point I see Margaret as someone who is just reacting. She hasn't had a significant break from all the new tasks, duties, and new impressions thrust at her: the move, the new living quarters..."

I agree--she already has enough to deal with, which she is with doing with strength; and in both situations, I felt as you that that she reacted as came naturally to her rather than something that she thought through.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "At this point I see Margaret as someone who is just reacting. She hasn't had a significant break from all the new tasks, duties, and new impressions thrust at her: the move, the new..."

I agree that she acted naturally and without thinking but without her experience of the Higgins household and the dinner at the Thornton’s, I don’t think she would have encouraged John Thornton to speak to the mob and then rushed to try and protect him. All the other women had moved upstairs to safety. In her London days she would have done the same. It was that knowledge of the two sides’ arguments that provoked such a reaction from her, despite the other stresses in her life.

Trev wrote: "He was a man unlike any other she had met, who possessed a passionate intelligence like she herself possessed. Even though she didn’t agree with some of his notions she admired his vigour in pursuing his ambitions. Compared with Henry, who had intelligence but used it to conform with the society around him, Mr. Thornton used his intelligence to innovate, change and speculate on new ideas and this excited Margaret albeit in ways she couldn’t yet understand."

That is a very good point, I'd say. There is a lot of talk about "men" and "gentlemen" between Margaret and Thornton, and Thornton clearly shows his scorn for the concept of a gentleman compared with that of a man. Maybe, this is also why he immediately proposes to Margaret - in an ill-chosen moment - instead of courting her like a gentleman like Lennox would have done. Maybe, Margaret is also torn as to Thornton because he not only does not conform to the idea of a gentleman but also openly rejects it, although it is a notion that is held in great veneration by Margaret (considering her background this is no surprise). Margaret's rude response to Thornton - regardless of all the fascination she feels for him - may be put down, partly, to the fact that he is no gentleman, neither socially nor in his own perception.

By the way, did Margaret have a choice but to rush to Thornton's help? After all, it was due to her reprimands that he went down to brave it out with the rabble.

I am curious as to the arrival of Frederick and what his influence will be. In a strange kind of way, the Frederick situation reminds me of Magwitch from Great Expectations.

Mrs. Thornton is quite an interesting character: On the one hand, she is jealous when she thinks that she will have to share her son with another woman, but she is also bitter when that woman turns her son down.

Tristram wrote: "Mrs. Thornton is quite an interesting character: On the one hand, she is jealous when she thinks that she will have to share her son with another woman, but she is also bitter when that woman turns her son down..."

The mother and son have quite a strong bond between them. The mother and son's love for each other and their previous hard struggles had secured that. So I guess it is quite hard for Mrs. Thornton to be in second of her son's affection as she thinks the case will be. (Personally, I don't believe that, for those two loves are of different kinds). And this makes her jealous of Margaret. But Margaret's rejection is slighting her son in her opinion. So while she is glad that he is yet again hers, she feels bitterly for the hurt it caused Mr. Thornton.

Lady Clementina wrote: "The proposal: Margaret’s second, and at this point more unwelcome to her than even the first; it seemed to me like Mr. Darcy’s first proposal from Pride and Prejudice, but with positions reversed...."

As the rest of you do, I still see echoes of Pride and Prejudice here. I do see the reversed situations of the couple--Margaret is the one of a higher class, even though he has the money. This move to Milton is challenging Margaret's ideas about class but she still hasn't progressed to the point that she can consider marriage to a "tradesman." Given her upbringing and her ideas of propriety, she is completely humiliated at the thought that these women would think she was flinging herself at Thornton. To have this proposal blindsiding her while she is still smarting from their remarks leads to her revulsion of feeling.

I think that, also like P&P, Margaret is now going to start seeing the more admirable side of his character. Just as Darcy's kindness and generosity are revealed to Elizabeth gradually after her rejection, we now see Thornton's thoughtfulness to her mother touching Margaret. I expect that she will continue to see him in new lights as she gets to know him better and realizes that there may be more to him than she gives him credit for.

I was sad that Bessy was taken before Margaret got to tell her goodbye. I didn't see it coming myself, despite her constant predictions of her own death. I've noticed that Mrs. Hale, once she has pushed until she gets her way, then starts to backtrack and question the course of action. She was adamant that her son be contacted about visiting before she dies, dismissing the danger to him, and once the letter has been irrevocably sent, she then starts to consider the possible consequences. She did this in another situation, but I can't remember exactly when it was. This is the one thing I dislike about reading on a Kindle--the inability to flip back through the pages. I wonder if this is an unconscious kind of "cya"; you know, so she can say that she wanted to stop him from coming but it was too late. Is it an unconscious attempt to absolve herself from the responsibility if it goes badly? Or maybe now that her fervor has passed, she is finally letting herself think about the whole situation and not just what she wants.

Piyangie wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Mrs. Thornton is quite an interesting character: On the one hand, she is jealous when she thinks that she will have to share her son with another woman, but she is also bitter when..."

They have been through a lot together. Her jealousy/unwillingness at having to 'share' her son with another woman is common in real life too--and then someone she doesn't really take to right from the start. From both those angles, the fact that she was prepared to not only accept John's decision but also to try and like Margaret and get along with her showed that perhaps she isn't all harsh.

Cindy wrote: "Given her upbringing and her ideas of propriety, she is completely humiliated at the thought that these women would think she was flinging herself at Thornton...."

I think at some level, this factor too played into her having a stronger reaction than she might have had.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Mrs. Thornton is quite an interesting character: On the one hand, she is jealous when she thinks that she will have to share her son with another woman, but she is..."

I agree with the comments made about Mrs Thornton. I admired her acceptance of the situation & thought she was unselfish to try to accept Margaret for her son’s sake. There was an interesting comparison between the two mothers, as Mrs Hale was prepared to risk her own son’s life because she wanted to see him. I know she was ill, but thought if she cared about him she should have left him where he was safe.

Trisha wrote: "There was an interesting comparison between the two mothers, as Mrs Hale was prepared to risk her own son’s life because she wanted to see him. I know she was ill, but thought if she cared about him she should have left him where he was safe...."

That is a very interesting observation you've made of the two mothers, Trisha. Perhaps Mrs. Hale's wish to see her son comes from the fact that she is dying. Yet to allow him to take the risk to come to England was not what could be expected since his capture means a sure execution. I felt it was a matter of impulse on the part of Mrs. Hale to see Frederick because after the letter was dispatched by Margaret she asks her if they can rewrite to him and stop him from coming. But I see your point. Mrs. Thornton would never have done anything to risk John's life or his happiness. Mrs. Thornton and Mrs. Hale are however made of different metal, one is strong and the other weak. Perhaps that accounts for the difference.

Cindy wrote: "This is the one thing I dislike about reading on a Kindle--the inability to flip back through the pages."

On a technical note, I have the kindle app on my laptop parallel to my kindle with books we discuss here. The PC app makes navigating the book much easier and it doesn't interfere with where I'm at on my kindle as long as I have the wireless turned off.

Trisha wrote: "Mrs Hale was prepared to risk her own son’s life because she wanted to see him. I know she was ill, but thought if she cared about him she should have left him where he was safe."

It is rather self-absorbed of Mrs Hale. She doesn't have much of a mother's instinct with either of her children. Margaret had been kept at an emotional distance all her life. I don't doubt she loves her children in her own limited way, but a true mother would never endanger her child if she could help it.

Kerstin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "Mrs Hale was prepared to risk her own son’s life because she wanted to see him. I know she was ill, but thought if she cared about him she should have left him where he was safe."

I..."
I thought so too, despite her illness.

Kerstin wrote: "It is rather self-absorbed of Mrs Hale. She doesn't have much of a mother's instinct with either of her children..."

I agree, she doesn't mean to be unkind but she is self-absorbed and it makes her thoughtless. When she tells Margaret she was an ugly child and she wanted Fred near her all the time! Still, I think Margaret understands that her mother is dying and so she will tolerate her unkindness because it isn't meant. She also should have resisted her mother's pressure to write to Fred but she couldn't bear her distress.

I also felt that Margaret was completely blindsided by Thornton's proposal, and after all the emotion of the riot and with her anxiety about her mother, she just reacted in a way that made her feel back in control. She was also embarrassed about being seen in his arms.

Almost immediately she begins to realise that he was genuine, but her shame and pride are still too strong for her to think kindly of him.

I find it fascinating how Gaskell presents the views of the two sides of the social conflict (masters and workers) using Margaret as a character who is in contact with both. She also expresses her opinion through Margaret (‘I see two classes dependent on each other in every possible way, yet each evidently regarding the interests of the other as opposed to their own.’)
Thornton's views are interesting - he insists on treating the workers as children, who must obey the parent without questioning. He himself worked his way up from nothing, worked hard, no doubt, practiced iron discipline and deprived himself of a lot. I suppose he cannot see why others shouldn't do the same, if they want to improve their lot in life. (‘It is one of the great beauties of our system, that a working-man may raise himself into the power and position of a master by his own exertions and behaviour; that, in fact, every one who rules himself to decency and sobriety of conduct, and attention to his duties, comes over to our ranks; it may not be always as a master, but as an over-looker, a cashier, a book-keeper, a clerk, one on the side of authority and order.') He even subscribes to some theories where the weak must just die and that is the way of things. Is he generally so unfeeling? He rushes to take fruit to sickly Mrs Hale but does not care that Boucher's children are starving to death?
He would have to change a lot to be accepted by Margaret :)

Piyangie wrote: "Trisha wrote: "There was an interesting comparison between the two mothers, as Mrs Hale was prepared to risk her own son’s life because she wanted to see him. I know she was ill, but thought if she..."

What is really annoying in Mrs. Hale is that she not only asks whether Margaret might not write to Frederick in order to retract her plea for him to come, but she also says that she dislikes things to be done in a haste, as though it were Margaret's fault. How could Margaret have grown to be such a determined and circumspect and responsible person with a father and a mother like that?

Triin wrote: "He even subscribes to some theories where the weak must just die and that is the way of things. Is he generally so unfeeling? He rushes to take fruit to sickly Mrs Hale but does not care that Boucher's children are starving to death?"

However unfeeling and gross Thornton's Social Darwinism may seem to the modern reader, it was part and parcel of many people's outlook on life in the 19th century, especially among members of the upper and middle classes. Robert Malthus, Herbert Spencer and other writers had shaped that kind of discourse and it fitted in jolly well with the interests of mill-owners and selfmade-men of the time, and so I think there would have been lots of readers who would have shared this view at first sight and might have been made to think twice by what Gaskell wrote here.

I think that Thornton offers the fruit to the ailing mother not only out of pity but also to prove to himself that Margaret's blunt refusal will not change one iota of his feelings and, least of all, of his actions.

Triin wrote: "I find it fascinating how Gaskell presents the views of the two sides of the social conflict (masters and workers) using Margaret as a character who is in contact with both."

I am glad you brought that up! I was thinking of it but never made a post. The Hale's are in a unique position to move between the two divergent social groups. They don't belong to either, and Margaret, educated, observant, and thoughtful, becomes the conduit of showing us intimate portraits of each.

Tristram wrote: "However unfeeling and gross Thornton's Social Darwinism may seem to the modern reader, it was part and parcel of many people's outlook on life in the 19th century, especially among members of the upper and middle classes. Robert Malthus, Herbert Spencer and other writers had shaped that kind of discourse and it fitted in jolly well with the interests of mill-owners and selfmade-men of the time, and so I think there would have been lots of readers who would have shared this view at first sight and might have been made to think twice by what Gaskell wrote here."

I understand what you are saying, but chronologically it is too early to bring Darwin into the mix. N&S was published in 1855 and The Origin of Species was published in 1859. Spencer then reacted to Darwin and his famous "Survival of the fittest" quote is from 1864. That's what I dug up in a quick Wikipedia search.

I do agree that materialist philosophy was prevalent in the early industrial revolution by the owners and that moral and social-justice issues born of Christian thought were very much opposed for they hindered unbridaled capitalism. Darwin's seminal book fit very nicely into this already existing materialist mindset.

Long story short, I do believe Thornton was very much influenced by materialism, but not completely so. He is also keenly interested in the knowledge and wisdom found in classic literature, so he intuitively knows his education was not fully balanced. Mrs. Thornton, on the other hand, thinks it foolish, and is part of the reason why she comes across so harshly.

Triin wrote: "He even subscribes to some theories where the weak must just die and that is the way of things. Is he generally so unfeeling? He rushes to take fruit to sickly Mrs Hale but does not care that Boucher's children are starving to death?"

I think Thornton cares deeply about the people he has a personal connection to. He wouldn't go out of his way tending to the Hale family if he didn't. To his workers he has a very different relationship. They are hired to perform a function and I imagine there is a constant turn around in the workforce as well, so you don't make closer connections.

In the 1850s death was much closer to people and you did see the weaker die far more often. I didn't take this as unfeeling but part of the harsh realities of life. However, then as now, there is the very valid question of earning a living wage in order to live a dignified life and being able to feed one's family. Factory workers made more money than tenant farmers, but the farmer usually had a plot of land for his own use where he could plant a garden and crops, perhaps even keep some chicken and goats to feed the family. In an urban settings this gets diminished. I honestly don't know what factory workers' housing looked like in the 1850s. Were they cramped row houses with a little plot in the back, apartment buildings, slum-like structures? Whatever the factory worker made, he had to pay rent and feed his family by purchasing most of his food.

Kerstin wrote: "Triin wrote: "I find it fascinating how Gaskell presents the views of the two sides of the social conflict (masters and workers) using Margaret as a character who is in contact with both."

I am gl..."

True, and it will be their role or at least Margaret's to get the two sides to see each other's perspectives as well.

Kerstin wrote: "Triin wrote: "He even subscribes to some theories where the weak must just die and that is the way of things. Is he generally so unfeeling? He rushes to take fruit to sickly Mrs Hale but does not c..."

I think so too-he doesn't have any personal connection or contact with his workers. Also. I'm not too sure Boucher actually worked for Mr Thornton, he was part of the mob yes, but not sure whether they were necessarily all who worked for Thornton or just disgruntled workers in general

I saw this chapter as being one of passions, and Margaret's responses to a depth of feeling that she has not experienced before, in what is being depicted as the more gentle (and genteel) south. She cannot understand the passion associated with the strike, her own feelings when protecting Thornton, the intensity of Thornton's proposal, and even has difficulties with her mother's passion for seeing her son.

At the same time as we see these passions we are also introduced to the coldness of Thornton's response to the strike. He has no feelings about the workers - his commercial values are paramount here. That he is not passionate about taking action against the demonstrators is derided by Higgins. he wants punishment meted out. Thornton will deprive Boucher of his livelihood, immune to the impact on him and his family. So, Thornton is passionate where his heart is involved; cold when it is a matter of money!

Margaret, although shying away from passion associated with her heart, has a wider range of feelings about the strike and strikers. Her shying away results in her refusal of Thornton's proposal, and her giving into her mother's foolish demands that her son be summoned home. In this case, Margaret wanted the deed done, despite her own sensible feelings on the matter. To me, she couldn't bear being associated with Mrs Hale's passion for her child's presence, not because of jealousy, but her fastidious nature which rejects passion.

In this section Margaret is given the role of sending two men into danger. In Thornton's case her naïve approach to the relationship between master and worker encourages her to think that the situation can be solved amicably; in the second, she is the conduit though which her brother is summoned into danger. In neither case is she at fault, she is gradually working her way through northern mores, industrial relations, taking on an even more important role in the family, and being her mother's intermediary.

Bessie's death, clearly as a result of the poor conditions in which she worked, becomes mired in the discussion about the strike. A failing, I believe, if we are to understand the conditions in the north that produce wealth for some and death for others. For this is the reality: there are hundreds of Bessies dying because of the working conditions. Despite the opportunity to develop this theme, Bessie's death is enmeshed in the idea of her love for Margaret, desire to have a particle of the latter's clothing, and her concerns about her father's drinking. The result is a softening of the whole situation into Higgin's talks with Mr Hale and his agreement to Margaret that he will not drink. The saving grace of this part of the novel is the discussion the two men have about the reasons for the strike. Religion also plays a part here, a rather lovely image of the three different viewpoints being embodied in the three people in the Hale parlour, 'Margaret the churchwoman, her father the Dissenter, Higgins the infidel, knelt down together. It did them no harm'. A strong image, and one that suggests that Gaskell believes that harmony can be found in north and south relationships.

Outside this three in harmony are Mrs Hale and Dixon. Dixon is rummaging in Margaret's drawer, and we are told that Mrs Hale still trusts her more than Margaret.

Mrs Hale's second thoughts about summoning her son are, in my view, the behaviour of a consistently weak person who cannot live with her decisions. Her portrait is one of a woman in a traditional role who is weakened by that role as much as by her ill health. In juxtaposition we have Mrs Thornton, whose child holds as important a place in her life as do Mrs Hale's. However, Mrs Thornton is not placed entirely in the traditional role of a woman in that period. It will be interesting to see how her character develops.

Robin wrote: "I saw this chapter as being one of passions, and Margaret's responses to a depth of feeling that she has not experienced before, in what is being depicted as the more gentle (and genteel) south. "

That's a great observation! I hadn't thought of looking at it from this perspective. Understatement is lived in the world of the gentry, showing passions is looked upon as displeasing, of being out of control, even vulgar. Here in Milton Margaret gets confronted with all sorts of passions being played out, no wonder she is so repulsed by some of it.

Kerstin wrote: "Cindy wrote: "This is the one thing I dislike about reading on a Kindle--the inability to flip back through the pages."

On a technical note, I have the kindle app on my laptop parallel to my kindl..."

That's a good idea! I'll have to try that. Thanks, Kerstin!

Tristram wrote: "How could Margaret have grown to be such a determined and circumspect and responsible person with a father and a mother like that?..."

I'm no expert, but I think that sometimes children with parents who have extremely negative behaviors grow up to be the exact opposite out of a combination of necessity and revulsion for that particular type of behavior. Just as many of the children of alcoholics and drug addicts have to start compensating for their parents' failings at an early age, Margaret may have been performing her role in the family as a younger child, to a lesser degree. Mr. Hale has probably always been weak and indecisive, unable to bear unpleasantness. Mrs. Hale sounds like she has long been discontent and maybe somewhat sickly. Also, Margaret has also been living with her aunt for years, so she has been under the influence of others. I got the feeling, from those first few pages, that Margaret might have made it a habit to be as useful as possible in her aunt's household, possibly out of gratitude for their largesse in offering her the opportunity for a London education and social experience. This attitude of being of service cultivates selflessness and responsibility, two qualities Margaret has in abundance.

Robin wrote: "I saw this chapter as being one of passions, and Margaret's responses to a depth of feeling that she has not experienced before, in what is being depicted as the more gentle (and genteel) south. Sh..."

Good point, again Robin--passions or the lack of them are perhaps also another point of contrast between Milton in general and the way Margaret has been brought up; between matters personal and and business.

Robin wrote: "Outside this three in harmony are Mrs Hale and Dixon. Dixon is rummaging in Margaret's drawer, and we are told that Mrs Hale still trusts her more than Margaret...."

A consequence of Margaret being brought up mostly away from home, perhaps--though Mrs Hale seems deeply attached to Frederick who has been away as well.

Robin wrote: "I saw this chapter as being one of passions, and Margaret's responses to a depth of feeling that she has not experienced before, in what is being depicted as the more gentle (and genteel) south. She cannot understand the passion associated with the strike, her own feelings when protecting Thornton, the intensity of Thornton's proposal, and even has difficulties with her mother's passion for seeing her son..."

Very interesting observation, Robin. I agree with you about Margaret. She was taken back by the wild passion of the mob and saw Thronton as a victim, the one who was oppressed at the moment. So she acted on impulse. But was that the real driving force for her conduct, or was it associated with any other feeling?

Kerstin wrote: "in the world of the gentry, showing passions is looked upon as displeasing, of being out of control, even vulgar. Here in Milton Margaret gets confronted with all sorts of passions being played out, no wonder she is so repulsed by some of it...."

Well and truly said, Kerstin.

I pity Margaret because of all the stress that´s laden on her, so I can imagine that she´s overwhelmed by the sudden proposal of Mr. Thornton. Mrs. Hale doesn´t have any feelings for her, especially when she expresses she loves Frederick more, and that Margaret was so ugly as a child. She´s very selfish.

Also interesting that even at those times it was usual to take cheaper workers in, as happens today even more.