Reading the 20th Century discussion

Our talk about Jack Kerouac and On the Road, over on the travel nomination thread inspired me to set up this discussion about The Beats

I find them fascinating. This is taken from Wikipedia...

Allen Ginsberg's Howl (1956), William S. Burroughs' Naked Lunch (1959), and Jack Kerouac's On the Road (1957) are among the best known examples of Beat literature.

Both Howl and Naked Lunch were the focus of obscenity trials that ultimately helped to liberalize publishing in the United States. The members of the Beat Generation developed a reputation as new bohemian hedonists, who celebrated non-conformity and spontaneous creativity.

The core group of Beat Generation authors - Herbert Huncke, Ginsberg, Burroughs, Lucien Carr, and Kerouac - met in 1944 in and around the Columbia University campus in New York City. Later, in the mid-1950s, the central figures, with the exception of Burroughs and Carr, ended up together in San Francisco, where they met and became friends of figures associated with the San Francisco Renaissance.

Rest here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_Ge...

Any fans here?


Which authors or poets do you especially like?

Or which have you tried but not enjoyed?

Who would you like to read or explore?

Which works would you recommend?

Beat Generation women who have been published include Edie Parker; Joyce Johnson; Carolyn Cassady; Hettie Jones; Joanne Kyger; Harriet Sohmers Zwerling; Diane DiPrima; and Ruth Weiss, who also made films. Carolyn Cassady wrote her own detailed account about life with husband Neal Cassady which also included details about her affair with Jack Kerouac. She titled it Off the Road, and it was published in 1990. Poet Elise Cowen took her own life in 1963. Poet Anne Waldman was less influenced by the Beats than by Allen Ginsberg's later turn to Buddhism. Later, female poets emerged who claimed to be strongly influenced by the Beats, including Janine Pommy Vega in the 1960s, Patti Smith in the 1970s, and Hedwig Gorski in the 1980s.

I must admit I have read hardly anything by the Beats. But as a teenager I had a few books from the Penguin Modern Poets series, and vividly remember reading and rereading the Beat Poets book in this series, Penguin Modern Poets 5, (for some reason this part of the title isn't showing on GR although it came up on a search) Gregory Corso, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Allen Ginsberg , published in 1970.

Ginsberg was my favourite out of them and the poem that has stuck in my mind the most is America. I just looked back at it and can't believe I understood half the references (I certainly don't now) but I liked the humorous, angry ranting feel of it, great to read aloud.

I will add a link to America, but with the warning that it does contain language which may offend - which I'm sure was the idea.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...

To be honest, I am not a huge fan, but there is no denying their importance. Paul McCartney's friend, and biographer, Barry Miles, was very involved with the Beat poets and wrote a lot of biographies about them, including The Beat Hotel which was fascinating. His own autobiographies, In The Sixties and In the Seventies: Adventures in the Counterculture are brilliant, and contain many funny stories about the writers and musicians of those eras - I highly recommend them. He also wrote biographies of William S. Burroughs - A Life and Allen Ginsberg: Beat Poet among others.

http://www.openculture.com/2012/04/th...

This is a clip of Paul with Ginsberg. Apparently, Ginsberg was performing at the Albert Hall and was looking for someone to accompany him on guitar, when Paul pointed out that he hadn't asked him and that he could play a guitar...

That's interesting, Susan. I know Ginsberg was also an influence on Bob Dylan and featured in one or two films with Dylan over the years. I'm really wondering why I have never followed through and read any more of their work.

I assume the Mersey beat poets were also influenced by them - they featured in another brilliant Penguin Modern Poets collection I owned as a teenager, The Mersey Sound, with poems by Adrian Henri, Brian Patten and Roger McGough. But I'm now going off at a tangent!

I love The Mersey Sound - re-read it a while ago. I think I prefer the Beat poetry to the novels. They wander too much and I get bored. Perhaps you need some kind of stimulant, so they make sense!

Beat Collection also compiled by Barry Miles is a good taster, Nigeyb, if you want to try several of the major Beat authors.

Susan wrote: "http://www.openculture.com/2012/04/th...

This is a clip of Paul with Ginsberg. Apparently, Ginsbe..."

Susan, thank you so much for this clip, it's fantastic. What a great combination!

Little known Beatle facts - just ask me :)

By the way, Judy, totally off topic (forgive me, Nigeyb) but you were mentioning Van der Valk the other day and I happened to notice the first novel is available for pre-order - Love in Amsterdam and also another series is being re-printed, although the first three books are only on audiobook. The Night Lords was the one in the email I received from Crime Classics. You may wish to explore.

Thanks Susan, I may explore, as I didn't manage to get to Amsterdam in real life! And thanks again for the Ginsberg/McCartney link.

Susan wrote: "http://www.openculture.com/2012/04/th...

This is a clip of Paul with Ginsberg. Apparently, Ginsbe..."

That's superb - never seen it before. Thanks Susan

Susan wrote: "Beat Collection also compiled by Barry Miles is a good taster, Nigeyb, if you want to try several of the major Beat authors."

I've read other Barry Miles tomes but not this one - it looks fab

I might be too old. I've barely heard of the men, and none of the women. Hard to think I'd dip my toe in the water now.

Judy wrote: "I must admit I have read hardly anything by the Beats. But as a teenager I had a few books from the Penguin Modern Poets series, and vividly remember reading and rereading the Beat Poets book in th..."

I recently listened to the first episode of Frank Skinner's Poetry Podcast in which he celebrates the Beat Poets and he specifically discusses Penguin Modern Poets 5. What a coincidence eh? It's a good listen and I recommend it.

Poems he mentions include:

Lawrence Ferlinghetti - Sometime During Eternity
Gregory Corso - Man About to Enter Sea
Allen Ginsberg - Sunflower Sutra
William Wordsworth - I Wandered Lonely As A Cloud
Lawrence Ferlinghetti – He

Plus Frank argues that Jack Kerouac’s On the Road is a poem too.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I might be too old. I've barely heard of the men, and none of the women. Hard to think I'd dip my toe in the water now."

I'm intrigued now Elizabeth. You think you might be too old to have been aware of a group of writers and poets from the 1950s?

I think of the Beat Poets being mainly 1950's/1960's but it was a movement of a certain time/era. I find the people more interesting than the writing, I must admit.

I'd agree that it was mainly their attitude and approach that changed the world. Their appeal to me is as a snapshot of a time and a place. That said, I really think On the Road retains a vibrancy and lust for life that still has the power to inspire

Susan wrote: "I think of the Beat Poets being mainly 1950's/1960's but it was a movement of a certain time/era. I find the people more interesting than the writing, I must admit."

I think I'm too old because they had not become an established part of literature while I was in my youth and would have had an opportunity to be exposed. It sounds to me as if you all became aware in school. They most certainly would not have been taught in schools in the early 60s - schools were teaching things that had aged. How/when would I have even known about these people?

And they were counter-culture. Not something anyone would have volunteered to me I should know a whit about.

Right. Thanks Elizabeth. So you were actually too young. That's what confused me.


I was also at school in the 60s (and 70s) and the Beats weren't part of the English school curriculum.

I came across the names from reading books or magazines. Many people cite Kerouac as an influence so that would have inspired me to get a copy out of the library, or buy it.

Ginsberg, Burroughs, Kerouac etc were all for sale in bookshops, and came up in magazines and documentaries, so they always seem to have been part of the cultural fabric.

Various of the books have also been adapted for films over the years.

This doesn't have to do with the beats, but it does have to do with age. In the US, To Kill a Mockingbird has been used as literature for a few decades now. It was first published in 1960, and was very controversial at the time. How would such a book get into the curriculum before 1963 when I graduated from high school. It wouldn't. Simple as that.

Schools were doing all they could to keep up with the huge swell in the student population due the baby boom. There weren't enough teachers to even hold their heads up to look around. They did what they had been taught to do. School boards and administrators weren't about to look parents in the face, stick their necks out to use controversial materials. It would mean loss of a job or an election.

I think I came across them through the Beatles. There was a famous incident where John and George, wives in tow, went to meet Ginsberg in London. This is early/mid Sixties. He opened the door stark naked and John said, "not in front of the Judy's!" or something similar, and left :) I was a bit of a magpie when I was young - if someone/thing was mentioned in a book that I didn't know, I was instantly intrigued and wanted to know more. I still love the fact that books, or other media, lead you to other things. It was Mantel's trilogy which led me to want to find out more about Catherine Howard.

I didn't follow the Beatles. I did listen to and do remember their music, of course, but I could have cared less about their lives. And not just *their* lives, the lives of any famous entertainers. I never could figure out why the lives of those people should have anything to do with me.

I have learned a lot of history through reading, and you're right, one thing leads to another. I've just read different things on different subjects than has interested you.

I can't remember how I came to the Beats, definitely after undergraduate though - I didn't do any American literature at uni.

I love Ginsberg's Howl, and have also read Joyce Johnson's In the Night Cafe which I I really liked - seem to have lost the book at some stage though :( I hate the thought of Naked Lunch - pure unreasonable prejudice, for some reason!

Like Nigeyb, I love the energy of Kerouac, though the book starts to get darker. And for all the counter-cultural attitudes, women are still disposable objects, along with all those pesky babies they insist on having!

I don't really know much about the Beatles so hadn't made the connection between them.

And yes, I love that idea of treating On The Road as a poem - nice!

We didn't study them at school either. I probably heard of Ginsberg via his connection with Bob Dylan. I'm just a bit surprised I never explored beyond that one paperback... but perhaps I will now!

Nigeyb wrote: "I recently listened to the first episode of Frank Skinner's Poetry Podcast in which he celebrates the Beat Poets and he specifically discusses Penguin Modern Poets 5. What a coincidence eh? It's a good listen and I recommend it...."

Nigeyb, thank you - that's a wonderful coincidence! I will give it a listen. I suppose probably those were just about the only poetry books available cheaply in shops in small towns in the mid-70s - they were certainly hugely influential. With both books and albums, I think I had far access to fewer in those days but read/listened to each one more times.

Nigeyb wrote: "Right. Thanks Elizabeth. So you were actually too young. That's what confused me.


I was also at school in the 60s (and 70s) and the Beats weren't part of the English school curriculum. "

If you were in school in the 60s and 70s, you are at least 15-20 years younger than I am (my children were born in 1965 and 1967). And that's what I meant about being too old.

Judy wrote: "With both books and albums, I think I had access to fewer in those days but read/listened to each one more times."

Yes, that's how I remember books and music as a child and teenager: it was a bigger deal to buy something, and I'd browse in the shops for ages before making my choice.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "This doesn't have to do with the beats, but it does have to do with age. In the US, To Kill a Mockingbird has been used as literature for a few decades now. It was first published in 19..."

To Kill a Mockingbird made it in to my school's curriculum in 1963. Although I don't remember ANY of the Beats being taught through '68 (the year I graduated high school) although it may have been taught in specialty or CL/AP courses, just not in any general courses. My knowledge of them at the time mainly stems from the books my older brother and sister brought into the house.

Judy wrote: "Nigeyb, thank you - that's a wonderful coincidence! I will give it a listen. I suppose probably those were just about the only poetry books available cheaply in shops in small towns in the mid-70s - they were certainly hugely influential."

I think you'll really enjoy it Judy

Frank Skinner is very engaging and accessible and his Poetry Podcast is quite inspiring

Judy wrote: "With both books and albums, I think I had access to fewer in those days but read/listened to each one more times."


Roman Clodia wrote: "Yes, that's how I remember books and music as a child and teenager: it was a bigger deal to buy something, and I'd browse in the shops for ages before making my choice."

Absolutely. It was a rare thing and quite an investment. As you both suggest, having made your decision you devoted time to try to get the most out of it.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "And that's what I meant about being too old"


I took your comment to mean that you were older than many of the Beat generation! Which seemed highly unlikely. Most of the Beats were born in the early to mid 1920s. Their work would certainly have been discussed and available during your formative years and beyond

I doubt many schools anywhere in the world taught it on an educational curriculum - Universities would most likely be a different matter

No, I don't think they would have ever appeared in a school curriculum. I was lucky at school and 'did' Pride and Prejudice, which I loved. Probably turned some off Jane Austen for life though - studying books was go either way, I find.

Susan wrote: "No, I don't think they would have ever appeared in a school curriculum. I was lucky at school and 'did' Pride and Prejudice, which I loved. Probably turned some off Jane Austen for life though"

Yes, having to study books at school can have such an impact. My brother did P&P and Barchester Towers and disliked them both, but his reading them introduced both authors to me and I loved them.

I did The Quiet American - and you know how I can't get on with Greene at all! I do wonder if my antipathy stems back to that enforced reading.

I also did The Mayor of Casterbridge and to this day it's my least favourite Hardy, who I love.

Nigeyb wrote: "Beat Generation women who have been published include Edie Parker; Joyce Johnson; Carolyn Cassady; Hettie Jones; Joanne Kyger; Harriet Sohmers Zwerling; Diane DiPrima; and Ruth Weiss, who also made..."

I have not read any of the female beat authors. Thank you for naming them and putting up the thread.

Nigeyb wrote: "Judy wrote: "With both books and albums, I think I had access to fewer in those days but read/listened to each one more times."

And how pleasurable it was! My friends and I would go to the high street every Saturday (must have been before we had saturday jobs) to browse through books and music. As much as I adore streaming and Kindle, maybe we have lost something of that pleasure?

It's true, RC. I used to go, at least one Saturday a month, to visit Foyles and Murder One, plus, of course, the 'record shops.' I do miss that, in particular. Streamed music cannot replace album covers and, as you say, the shared experience.

Chrissie wrote: "I have not read any of the female beat authors. Thank you for naming them and putting up the thread. "


Nor me Chrissie. I'm keen to sample them

Judy wrote: "Nigeyb, thank you - that's a wonderful coincidence! I will give it a listen. I suppose probably those (Penguin Modern Poet series books) were just about the only poetry books available cheaply in shops in small towns in the mid-70s - they were certainly hugely influential."

I have a bid in for Penguin Modern Poets 5 on eBay which I am hoping will be successful.

Frank Skinner's enthusiasm and love for the poems in his Poetry Podcast completely convinced me that I should read this short collection which includes contains work by...

Gregory Corso, Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti

...and is a very slim volume

I think my copies of Penguin Modern Poets books fell to bits, Nigeyb - I did love them back in the 1970s though. Not sure if I had any others apart from The Beats and The Mersey Sound ones.

What a fun thread. I too appreciate the female beat authors--had not heard of them. Also the Beatles trivia!

I grew up in the 60's, so heard of the Beats most of my life. My favorite bookstore (http://www.citylights.com/) honors them, and I studied a little of the poetry in the free Coursera class ModPo.

My favorite Beat poem is Ginsberg's A Supermarket in California: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...

Kathleen wrote: "I grew up in the 60's, so heard of the Beats most of my life. My favorite bookstore (http://www.citylights.com/) honors them, and I studied a little of the poetry....."

When I visited San Francisco in the late 1980s a pilgimage to the City Lights bookstore was very high on my list of things to do. It did not disappoint.

My favourite Beat poem is Ginsberg's Howl: the amazing energy and rhythm! www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/...

Thanks RC - I have read it, but not for a long time


Off to have a read now

Nigeyb wrote: "I have a bid in for Penguin Modern Poets 5 on eBay which I am hoping will be successful.

Frank Skinner's enthusiasm and love for the poems in his Poetry Podcast completely convinced me that I should read this short collection which includes contains work by...

Gregory Corso, Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti

...and is a very slim volume"

Sadly not to be on this occasion

It went for double my budget - I guess they must be quite sought after.

Or perhaps Frank's podcast has inflated the pricess?

Sorry you didn't manage to get the Penguin Modern Poets book, Nigeyb. I see The Mersey Sound, book 10, has been reissued as an ebook, so I wonder if they may be tempted to do the same for book 5.