Victorians! discussion

(Photo from www.trollopeusa.org)

A year-long project ahead! We (at least me and Renee) are going to read the whole Chronicles of Barsetshire by Anthony Trollope, starting with The Warden in January. There will be no strict timetables and we are reading the novels every other month, so Barchester Towers begins in March. This strategy leaves time for catching up and discussions during the ‘no-read’ months. So the full schedule would look like this (as posted in another thread):

Jan (- Feb): The Warden
March (- April): Barchester Towers
May (- June): Doctor Thorne
July (- August): Framley Parsonage
Sep (- Oct): The Small House at Allington
Nov (- Dec): The Last Chronicle of Barset

For The Warden, I think it’s enough to have two threads as it’s a pretty short read. This thread covers approximately the first half of the novel. For the other novels I would like to divide them into smaller sections.

Thanks for setting this up, Tommi!
I love the map and the 'break month' idea!
Just started War and Peace (which I can't seem to put down, it's so good), so I'll probably linger, a bit, over The Warden. (Unless I can't put that down either.) ;-)

I have copy of the Warden on my e-reader so I hope I can join you.

Drat, I loved the Barsetshire series and part of me wants to reread them, part of me wants to honor a resolve to drastically reduce my to-read list. What a wonderful delimma to have.
I think the Warden was my favorite of all. Mr. Harding was such a sweet man and the situation with the press seemed so very relevent to today's world.

I'm starting Framley Parsonage but I'm reading these so slowly that you'll probably catch up with me. I can pop in here and there with comments with regard to the books I've already read though. Mr. Harding was one of my favourite characters from my 2014 reads. And, like Diane, so far The Warden is my favourite.

Diane wrote: "Drat, I loved the Barsetshire series and part of me wants to reread them, part of me wants to honor a resolve to drastically reduce my to-read list. What a wonderful delimma to have.
I think the Warden was my favorite of all."

I love them all, but for me The Warden is a bit sparse in characters. I prefer Barchester Towers for its much richer palate of characters, and Small House for the lovely Lily Dale.

I, too, am overburdened with a "to read" list, but may just have to revisit Barchester with you anyhow.

Just finished the series. But would love to join in on the discussion occasionally

I'm tempted to try and join you as I've loved the Trollope I've read so far. Will have to see how my reading schedule goes, but I do like the idea of the more relaxed pace with a break between books :)

Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "I'm tempted to try and join you as I've loved the Trollope I've read so far. Will have to see how my reading schedule goes, but I do like the idea of the more relaxed pace with a break between boo..."

It would be great if you could join us. And if we have questions about the topography of the books, we can send you off to Trollope country to research on site for us!!

Everyman wrote: " And if we have questions about the topography of the books, we can send you off to Trollope country to research on site for us!! ..."

Absolutely, always up for a fictional road trip :)

I’m only maybe five chapters in, but I find the story, or more like the moral dilemma, fascinating. What do you guys think of Mr Harding? I think the central problem is well presented in this one paragraph from the third chapter:

In the first place, he wished for Eleanor's sake to think well of Bold and to like him, and yet he could not but feel disgusted at the arrogance of his conduct. What right had he to say that John Hiram's will was not fairly carried out? But then the question would arise within his heart,—Was that will fairly acted on? Did John Hiram mean that the warden of his hospital should receive considerably more out of the legacy than all the twelve old men together for whose behoof the hospital was built? Could it be possible that John Bold was right, and that the reverend warden of the hospital had been for the last ten years and more the unjust recipient of an income legally and equitably belonging to others? What if it should be proved before the light of day that he, whose life had been so happy, so quiet, so respected, had absorbed eight thousand pounds to which he had no title, and which he could never repay? I do not say that he feared that such was really the case; but the first shade of doubt now fell across his mind, and from this evening, for many a long, long day, our good, kind loving warden was neither happy nor at ease.

Mr Harding is such a lovely, good-hearted man but on the other hand I understand Bold’s motives. One guy making a load of money by not doing much while out there are people making much less for much more work. But is Mr Harding the right target of Bold’s? I think there are much bigger sources of evil than one little Mr Harding who, even when his income is questioned by the suitor of his daughter, still likes Bold.

I really loved Harding's quite graciousness and integrity. As for the income, the issue for me was (I'll put this in spoiler, although I don't think it is): (view spoiler)[what benefits was Harding providing outside of his practical duties that perhaps because were not taken into account because they could not be measured monetarily. They were beyond the value of money and weren't considered because the focus was made to be entirely on the money aspect of his job. (hide spoiler)]

Tommi wrote: "Mr Harding is such a lovely, good-hearted man but on the other hand I understand Bold’s motives. "

I agree that Mr. Harding is a delight, and wish the church today had masses of him. But I really don't agree with Bold's motives. There is no indication that the pensioners are in any way being deprived of any money that is rightfully theirs. The whole situation really has nothing to do with him; he's just one of those people who like to meddle in other peoples' affairs, finding a theoretical justification for doing so but really meddling because they like to meddle.

Cleo wrote: "(I'll put this in spoiler, although I don't think it is)"

I completely agree with your spoiler, which really I think isn't. It is a failing of the society of their day, and of ours, that we give short shrift to values that can't be monetized.

Everyman wrote: "But I really don't agree with Bold's motives. There is no indication that the pensioners are in any way being deprived of any money that is rightfully theirs. The whole situation really has nothing to do with him; he's just one of those people who like to meddle in other peoples' affairs, finding a theoretical justification for doing so but really meddling because they like to meddle. ...."

Does he strike you as a type of Javert? Is he is so consumed with rules and regulations and uses those rules as a yardstick to measure what is right, that he is completely blind to the humanity behind the regulations? I think his motives are pure in his mind, but he fails to see the whole picture. Do we know enough about him to surmise where his blindness comes from?

I'm on chapter 6, and now I definitely agree with you Everyman. Bold himself says that he does not know what he is doing. It seems he just wants to do something "important", something that makes a difference, without considering the consequences. He's becoming a really loathsome character. :)

Cleo wrote: "Does he strike you as a type of Javert? Is he is so consumed with rules and regulations and uses those rules as a yardstick to measure what is right, that he is completely blind to the humanity behind the regulations?"

That's a really nice thought. Though if we think him blind to humanity, we have to adapt that thought as we get to future chapters.

Tommi wrote: "I’m only maybe five chapters in, but I find the story, or more like the moral dilemma, fascinating. What do you guys think of Mr Harding? I think the central problem is well presented in this one p..."

Yes. Hardy is a good man. Perhaps the correct style should be to put capitals. Hardy is a Good Man. He seems innocent of the politics of life, the church and even his town.

I think it is important to differentiate between the words "good" and "naive." Hardy, to my mind, is not naive. While his actions show a certain lack or grasp of the way society works, his actions also show how society should work. Do good, see the good in everyone, have the respect of your peers and community, and, perhaps, most importantly, do not regulate your life based on money.

It is hard to be a good person. It will be interesting to see how successful Trollope will be in drawing the character of Mr. Hardy.

Everyman wrote: "Tommi wrote: "Mr Harding is such a lovely, good-hearted man but on the other hand I understand Bold’s motives. "

I agree that Mr. Harding is a delight, and wish the church today had masses of him...."

I agree with you. Bold seems to be a nasty piece of work. Once Pandora's box is opened, and all the contents unleashed, there will be no turning back.

What I keep coming back to is how nearly Trollope has set up the situation. No real harm is being done to the pensioners. In fact, as I understand it, they are getting the portion they always did, even in low times when the Warden went without, and not the added remuneration of high times. Also, they are not working for their fee, and have no children who might benefit from inheritance upon their deaths. I think Mr. Bold may be tilting at a dragon which does not exist, except on paper. It would be one thing to investigate possible wrongdoing, but another to make it so public tat even the innocent may be maligned.

Renee wrote: "What I keep coming back to is how nearly Trollope has set up the situation. No real harm is being done to the pensioners. In fact, as I understand it, they are getting the portion they always did, ..."

Yes. It seems that Bold is in a rush to find something he sees as a cause he can latch onto. The fact that Eleanor is Hardy's daughter does not soften his zeal. While we cannot always look the other way when friends or colleagues transgress the law, he does seem rather too eager to make his mark. Bold is indeed bold, but his first appearance in the book is not going to benefit anyone.

Peter wrote: " Bold seems to be a nasty piece of work. "

I think you're too hard on him. He thinks he sees injustice, and thinks it's his duty to correct it. We may well think that he doesn't understand justice, and also doesn't understand that sometimes in life human considerations should trump cold justice, but those failings don't make him nasty any more than Javert, who Cleo compared to him, was a nasty person.

I think we also have to understand the age difference here. Bold is the young idealist. Harding is the societal grandfather. I don't know about you, but when I was Bold's age I also was certain that I knew how the world ought to run, and that I was the one to make it run that way. Now the only thing I'm certain of is that those who are certain about anything are often the most dangerous, and also often the most unhappy, people.

Everyman wrote: "I think we also have to understand the age difference here. Bold is the young idealist. Harding is the societal grandfather. I don't know about you, but when I was Bold's age I also was certain ..."

Yes. We need, perhaps, to remember that in The Warden Trollope appears to be setting up many opposing facits of belief and perception to enhance his story. Structurally, such style does tend to polarize each of the characters who are representing an ideology or social point of view.

I've latched onto Bold in these initial chapters as a target for my criticism. No doubt I will find others as we progress through the novel. Somehow, I think I'll always like Mr. Hardy though.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "
I think you're too hard on him. He thinks he sees injustice, and thinks it's his duty to correct it. We may well think that he doesn't un..."

I, too, think Bold is motivated by what he believes is the right thing to do. Honestly, if he was truly nasty, and his motivations spurred on by evil intent, I think Mr. Harding would not have been so understanding where his behaviour was concerned. Harding is gentle and kind and is capable of being long-suffering to a point, but as we'll see, he sticks to his guns when there is a question of integrity. If Bold was intrinsically dishonourable, I don't believe Hardy would have accepted him as a son-in-law.

Peter, Trollope certainly does give us a myriad of characters to criticize, doesn't he? I quite like his insight and perception when crafting the ones in this novel.

Peter wrote: "We need, perhaps, to remember that in The Warden Trollope appears to be setting up many opposing facits of belief and perception to enhance his story."

Good point. And his writing is rich enough that opinions formed at the start of a book can easily morph and change as the book continues.

Everyman wrote: "I think we also have to understand the age difference here. Bold is the young idealist. Harding is the societal grandfather. I don't know about you, but when I was Bold's age I also was certain ..."
I think you are so correct about Bold's youth and idealism.
One reason I like Trollope's novels so much is the universality of his characters. The personalities and the reactions of characters to situations are as real today as they were back then. And the fact that, as Everyman said, our opinions can grow and change as the book continues.

Diane wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I think we also have to understand the age difference here. Bold is the young idealist. Harding is the societal grandfather. I don't know about you, but when I was Bold's age I ..."

Yes. Trollope's universe of characters and issues seem very fresh and modern to me also. I had not been too much of a Trollope fan until this past year. Our discussions on Goodreads have certainly turned on a few lights in my mind!

It’s great how many comments we’ve gotten in such a short period of time. I didn’t expect much, but clearly there is a lot of interest for the novel. Thank you everybody!

The chapter ending this section in our read, “Iphigenia”, was a nice one. Having read Aeschylus’ Agamemnon, the imagery was pretty brutal. Trollope’s “Agamemnon” (Mr Harding) is fortunately not commanded to kill his daughter. No, not in a Victorian novel.

Tommi wrote: "It’s great how many comments we’ve gotten in such a short period of time. I didn’t expect much, but clearly there is a lot of interest for the novel. Thank you everybody!

The chapter ending this s..."

It is enjoyable and instructive to keep an eye on the chapter titles. Trollope frames the chapters very well.

I had glossed over, in earlier readings, the beginning of Chapter 2, where it is pointed out that the concern about the hospital wasn't initiated or solely pushed by Bold, but that it involved "eager pushing politicians in the House of Commons" indignant over the wealth of the church. "Men are beginning to say that these things must be looked into."

As far a Barchester is concerned, John Bold is, indeed, apparently the moving party, but he is moving in a national movement, with at least one hospital already having been drawn into the law courts.

Not that I excuse John Bold for seeking a course of action which will only injure a man whom everybody, including Bold, recognizes to be a good, kind, almost saintly man, but it does set a context in which he is only part of a broader movement.

I love that description of Dr. Grantley which opens Chapter 5, especially the passage

Such a work required no ordinary vigour; and the archdeacon was, therefore, extraordinarily vigorous. It demanded a buoyant courage, and a heart happy in its toil; and the archdeacon's heart was happy, and his courage was buoyant.

Trollope's names are every bit as good as Dickens's.

John Bold is indeed bold.
Sir Abraham Haphazard.
Joe Skulpit

Magnificent writing:

"The tone of our archdeacon's mind must not astonish us; it has been the growth of centuries of church ascendancy; and though some fungi now disfigure the tree, though there be much dead wood, for how much good fruit have not we to be thankful? Who, without remorse, can batter down the dead branches of an old oak, now useless, but, ah! still so beautiful, or drag out the fragments of the ancient forest, without feeling that they sheltered the younger plants, to which they are now summoned to give way in a tone so peremptory and so harsh?"

It is true still, that rush to cast out the old, bring in the new, without due recognition of the merits that the old over many centuries brought to the cherishing of civilization.

Everyman wrote: "Magnificent writing:

"The tone of our archdeacon's mind must not astonish us; it has been the growth of centuries of church ascendancy; and though some fungi now disfigure the tree, though there b..."

Everyman

I took your advice of a few months back and just completed Trollopes's The Way We Live Today. It is, indeed, a very modern book in its focus and themes. I am increasingly appreciating Trollope as a writer. Thanks.

Everyman wrote: "Magnificent writing:

"The tone of our archdeacon's mind must not astonish us; it has been the growth of centuries of church ascendancy; and though some fungi now disfigure the tree, though there b..."

He is a master of extended metaphors, like the one you quoted. And there is a lot of them in here (as in the other few novels I have read from him). I enjoy them very much because 1) they're not tacky like they could easily be, and 2) they make me consider things, such as "the archdeacons's mind", from different perspectives and thus give a fuller, more thought-provoking reading experience. Novels should make us think and Trollope certainly succeeds in that.

I do love the naming in Dickens and Trollope. :D I'm wondering if there are any modern authors who have continued the tradition. Maybe in the scifi or mystery genres?

'Now the only thing I'm certain of is that those who are certain about anything are always the most dangerous ...'

Wow, Everyman, I was just glancing through some comments and this jumped out at me. I love it! Oh, SO true! (I am attempting to stay my hand from a line of exclamation marks here,)
Oh what the heck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'•Often...' Mea culpa. I was writing it from memory.

Still not caught up on this section, but in regard to Bold, it would seem that he is a deontologist. No matter what age, and here I think of one particular friend, it is very difficult, mostly impossible, to change a deontologist's mind. To him, his sense of duty is paramount. It doesn't mean that Bold is nasty, though his actions are more than a little frustrating, but I believe that he really thinks that he is doing the right thing. In my experience, those of a deontological philosophy, will always think of what they believe as right no matter who the victim of said beliefs may be. There is no grey area. Poor Mr Harding.

How interesting! Bold certainly seems to fit that description.

Hilary wrote: "Still not caught up on this section, but in regard to Bold, it would seem that he is a deontologist. No matter what age, and here I think of one particular friend, it is very difficult, mostly imp..."

Hi Hilary

Since you have finished BT and are presently reading through this one I'm betting you will enjoy the "before Eleanor Bold." Her marriage to Dr. Bold was interesting, but just imagine if Dr Bold would have tangled with his more mature and self-assured wife Eleanor Bold in BT.

It's one of those "what if" questions we can only speculate about.

My glory, Peter, that would have been an explosive of a very different calibre!