Classics Without All the Class discussion

This book has a large cast, but Dorothea has a plot line all to herself. What do you think of her? The author kicks off the novel by comparing her to Saint Teresa, but by chapter five she's made at least one, uhm, questionable decision. Is she noble? Naive? Trapped by her circumstances? Or just annoyingly stubborn?

I have finished book one and at this point in Middlemarch I would describe Dorothea as naive and immature even though her motives/goals sound very noble. It is hard to believe that she will be happy with her decision long-term. I am sure she is worried about making a life for herself and this decision seems like a ticket to security. However, she seems to have the emotions of a very young women and she is painting a fairy tale (not the happily ever after type I fear!) picture of her future that is much brighter than it is likely to end up being. Her sister seems much more grounded and sensible ... at this point anyway.

Yeah, Celia definitely seems to have more common sense. But then Celia wants different things, right? I guess the question is, if the thing you wanted most in the world was knowledge, and you thought the only way you could get that was by marrying a brilliant man...?

I don't know what I would have done in Dorothea's shoes. Probably waited a little longer before rushing in. Reading this, I kind of wanted to shake her uncle ... DON'T LET HER DO ITTTTT!

I'm only on chapter six, but right now I keep thinking "Please don't be the main character. please don't be the main character "

Ebster wrote: "I'm only on chapter six, but right now I keep thinking "Please don't be the main character. please don't be the main character ""

Lol. Too naive or too earnest? (Or just too annoying?) I loved Dorothea the first time I read Middlemarch, but this time around I find her a little irritating to be honest.

Anyway ... not to worry! This book has a huge cast and plenty of other major characters. Just keep going -- you won't be disappointed!

Eremi wrote: "This book has a large cast, but Dorothea has a plot line all to herself. What do you think of her?

Love her, from the first chapter to the last.

The author kicks off the novel by comparing her to Saint Teresa, but by chapter five she's made at least one, uhm, questionable decision.

The prelude compares Dorothea to St. Teresa in the sense that both have "passionate, ideal" natures, but the comparison stops there. St. Teresa lead an epic life, but for various reasons Dorothea did not.

I think the St. Teresa comparison isn't meant to portray Dorothea as special, perfect or immune from making mistakes. The prelude says: "Many Theresas have been born who found for themselves no epic life wherein there was a constant unfolding of far-resonant action; perhaps only a life of mistakes." And that's Dorothea in a nutshell. The fact she made a questionable decision, then, doesn't mean she doesn't have St. Teresa's passion and ideals, as thousands of women have had, although not many reached St. Teresa's highs.

Is she noble? Naive? Trapped by her circumstances? Or just annoyingly stubborn?

Noble but human. Only as naive as a woman can be in her early twenties, living in a patriarchal society in rural England. Under those circumstances, I find her remarkably ambitious and clever. Her misforture in picking the wrong man doesn't mean she's naive - I think that's too harsh of a word. I'd say maybe too idealistic, which I find a bit sad but also charming. I love idealists and those with great ambitions, and Dorothea is very persistent when it comes to making her own decisions, seeking the knowledge that most men around her don't even think a woman is fit to fathom, etc. I do think she's stuck in her circumstances but she fights against them - sometimes winning, sometimes giving in.

Dorothea reminds me of Elizabeth Bennett, Jane Eyre, Ned Esther Summerson (Bleak House). But I think she is more fiery than all of them. It's early in the story for me, but I do like her. She also seems less predictable than the above characters (more volatile).

Dominika wrote: "I think the St. Teresa comparison isn't meant to portray Dorothea as special, perfect or immune from making mistakes...."

I think you're absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply that Dorothea (or St. Theresa!) was supposed to be flawless -- I guess I was more interested in whether people find Dorothea likeable or annoying, since opinions on her seem often to be polarized.

The first time I read Middlemarch, at twenty, I adored Dorothea heart and soul -- I saw so much of myself in her. With each subsequent reading (Middlemarch is one of my favorite books and I read it every couple years) I've sympathized with her a little less, and found her a tiny fraction more annoying. Who knows, maybe I associate her with my younger self? I still love her, of course, and she's still one of my favorite characters in literature, but the love is tempered with a little eye rolling... Oh Dorothea, there you go again making your life difficult...

Dorothea: Living in an epoch where choices are not publically available means any independent thinking does not get discussed adequately - if at all. There can be no 'consciousness raising'. The sorrowfull thing is there must have been many women like Dorothea who 'went by the wayside' due to this kind of absence in their lives, plus the locally constricting religious outlook - and still do (say, in the Middle East). As Dominika points out, Dorothea is too idealistic, but this idealism is formed within a social framework which she inherited and was affirmed but not informedly chosen.

Casaubon: The church, of course, ruled everything in ethical thinking. Casuabon is a bore who depends on social sanction for his livelihood - he is just a product of his time.

Mark's remark about comparisons with Jane Eyre, Elizabeth Bennet, and so on, can remind us about how 19th century writers were struggling to give birth to new ethical conceptions of how individuals might start to live fulfilling lives. They were the pioneers who got things moving in human rights - unionisation, the debunking of hypocrasy - and their works are a gift that will be with us for always.

Mark wrote: "Dorothea reminds me of Elizabeth Bennett, Jane Eyre, Ned Esther Summerson (Bleak House). But I think she is more fiery than all of them. It's early in the story for me, but I do like her. She also ..."

Totally agree. She did things that you were thinking, no don't do that but she did it anyway for her own reasons. And was more passionate about it as she did it.

Dorothea is very stubborn and idealistic, especially for the age, but the poor thing does genuinely think Casaubon and she are kindred spirits and that he will mentor her and foster her thirst for knowledge. It sounds like Casaubon is the one who is going to drop the ball here. It's so sad that this one wrong decision, based on trust and a not unwarranted assumption, is going to impact her life so negatively. I am only on Chapter 8 so it is early in the book for me too.

Karen wrote: "Dorothea is very stubborn and idealistic, especially for the age, but the poor thing does genuinely think Casaubon and she are kindred spirits and that he will mentor her and foster her thirst for ..."

'Mentor her'- Great expression. I totally agree. Her passage to enlightenment (Will that be the word?) involves a voluntary submission to one she regards as superior in knowledge. Her idealism also prioritises intellectual attractions over the physical. There is a funny part later in the book where Casaubon lies stiff as a post next to her in bed. So much for idealism of the body!

I liked Dorothea a lot more at the end. Its like her real self was revealed. She was living her life as she wanted it to be, not to please others or to keep up appearances.

I'm over halfway through now, and while she drives me crazy in some points, she's starting to assert herself a bit more and do a lost more introspective thinking, and I think I'm beginning to appreciate her more. We've all gone through those times of foolish, idealized decisions, and it's the growth that comes out of them that is the most important.

I quite agree, Alana.