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Nicholas Nickleby
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Nicholas Nickleby: Week 3: Chapters XIII - XVIII
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This story is developing in a different way than I had expected-I thought the Dotheboys Hall episode would have lasted much longer-but I'm enjoying the new characters, and Dickens further commentary.In Ch 15, he has Miss Petowker, searching for a word to describe Nicholas, say Why-dear me, how stupid am...what do you call it, when Lords break off door-knockers and beat policemen, and play at coaches with other peoples's money, and all that sort of thing?
'Aristocratic?' suggested the collector.
'Ah, Aristocratic,' replied Miss Petowker, 'something very aristocratic about him, isn't there?'
He also complains about the lack of copyright protection for authors by having the MP Mr Gregsbury say
If any preposterous bill were brought forward, for giving poor grubbing devils of authors a right to their own property, I should like to say, that I for one would never consent to opposing an insurmountable bar to the diffusion of literature among THE PEOPLE...that the creations of the pocket, being man's, might belong to one man, or one family; but the creations of the brain, being God's, ought as a matter of course to belong to the people at large-...and say that those who wrote for posterity should be content to be rewarded by the approbation OF posterity....and you could be as funny as you like about authors; because I believe the greater part of them live in lodgings, and are not voters.
Overall I enjoyed this segment and like seeing the parallel stories of Kate and Nicholas evolving.
Mod
There is also much social commentary in this segment. Using the characters of Mr. Lilyvick, the collector, Miss. Petoskey, the theatre performer, and Mr. Gregsbury, MP, Dickens attacks on various quarters of government and society.
Frances wrote: "This story is developing in a different way than I had expected-I thought the Dotheboys Hall episode would have lasted much longer-but I'm enjoying the new characters, and Dickens further commentar..."I also wondered about the Dotheboys Hall story being somewhat truncated in the effort to get Nicholas seemingly 'off to a new adventure'. What role did the school have in the novel, if it is to be such a short section of the work? for a start, it demonstrated Ralph's capacity for manipulation and influence on the Nicklebys. We certainly learnt something about the characters of Mrs Nickleby and Nicholas in their readiness to believe that the latter's move so far away could be to their advantage. In the short time Nicholas is at the school the horrors impacting on the students, and a teacher left at the mercy of the school's owners are demonstrated . And, perhaps most importantly for the events in the future, Smike leaves the school and accompanies Nicholas. I expect from this outcome of the short sojourn Smike might be the important feature of the event? I realise that the social commentary is also important, but it was so overwritten, as I mentioned earlier, that I wonder about the impact Dickens expected.
As everyone else said, I’m glad Nicholas is away from the hall, and considering Dickens preface, also surprised and thought we’d have to be there through much of the book. So, I’m looking forward now to Nicholas outside of the hall.I think we learn a lot about Nogg’s character which seems genuinely good. I never had a great opinion of him as Ralph’s assistant, but as a helper to the Nickelby clan, he’s doing some good deeds.
I’m also glad Nicholas didn’t get the job at the MP’s office. The MP was not well liked, and seemingly for good reason, and when the MP went on about the job, and his arrogance – I feel like it would have been more tiresome as a reader and not a good environment for Nicholas. I think he’ll be much better suited with the Kenwig’s and hopefully it will offer up more opportunities. It was only his 2nd day and they sought him out, so I feel his prospects would be good for other ventures. Although I’m not sure what to make of the Kenwig’s yet, they seem an interesting bunch, but seem to vacillate in their convictions.
Miss Knag sure turned on a dime, it makes me feel for Kate. She’s trying to make a go of it, and it seems like it’s going to be an uphill battle. And that Mr. Mantalini sure is a creeper!
I don’t know what it is about Mrs. Nickelby but every time she comes up in the story it’s like nails on a chalkboard for me. I just do not like her character. Considering she’s the mother and at present just a hanger-on, I don’t see it changing, so I’m glad she’s not a main player.
Mod
I agree with you, Brenda. Considering the preface, my belief was that it will hold for at least one-third of the book. But this was quick. But as Robin pointed out, it is to pave way for new adventures for Nicholas. In a way, it is welcoming. The cruelties at the Hall is too much and too depressing to read.
I also share your sentiments on Mrs. Nickleby and very glad that she is a sidekick.
I’m enjoying this, & like the subtle humour. I think this remains my favourite of the Dickens books I have read so far. As others say, considering the emphasis on the school in any description of the book it’s strange how little it has appeared in the story. Though it is the introduction for Smike, so it gives a lot of background information.I thought that Nicholas has shown his character by his refusal to accept the way the school was run, & again by turning down the job offered by the MP. But his quick acceptance of such a badly paid job as a tutor seemed a little unrealistic on his first day of looking for work.
Piyangie wrote: "Like you, Frances I too thought the Dotheboy Hall episode will last much longer. However, I enjoyed the way it concluded. There is also much social commentary in this segment. Using the character..."
I thought it would last longer but at the same time was relieved that it didn't. This is one of my favourite Dickens' novels. I hadn't even thought of reading it until I saw an excellent movie adaptation of it, but of course there is so much more in the book than in the film!
@Brenda - I'm not a fan of Mrs. Nickelby, either.
I'm always interested in the horrible (step)mother/apparently well brought-up child(ren) combinations we so often see. Here Mrs Nickleby appears selfish and somewhat deluded (having driven her husband into debt with her desire to speculate, she blames him for their poverty, and she appears to believe Ralphs promises and think that the children's jobs will bring them wealth) while her children appear wise and sensible and very good-hearted. I wonder if that was something Dickens himself grew up with and sees himself in someone like Nicholas.
Mod
I'm glad to hear you enjoying the reading, Trisha. And yes, I like the subtle humour too. Even the most painful parts of the story are quite endurable because of that.
Mod
Dickens prefers self-made, sensible, and good-hearted heroes, like Nicholas here and David Copperfield. Since Dickens turns out to be one, we can be pretty sure where it is coming from.
Mrs. Nickelby is a selfish and foolish woman. And unless she grows otherwise during the story, I'm sure she would turn out to be a character I totally dislike.
There was certainly a lot of venom in the way Nicholas tore into Wackford Squeers. Dickens was using his pen to strike a blow (or a flurry of blows) against the cruelty and inhumanity present in Yorkshire schools. I am surprised that he did use such ‘eye for an eye’ violence rather than a more subtle solution which had a longer term consequence for the Squeers family. However, Nicholas could stand no more of the bullying and by ‘taking the bull by the horns’ he has now begun to create his own destiny albeit with the shadow of the assault hanging over him. He is developing that important skill of considering his opportunities and soon realised how quickly he would find himself back in that drudgery of overwork and subservience if he took the job as secretary to the lazy MP. Surely Kate can’t last long at the Mantalinis. Not only does she have to run the gauntlet of Mr Mantalini’s leers, but also put up with the insults of Miss Knag and her gang of whispering cronies. The customers are not much better in the way they treat her. It must be difficult for her to endure but she does seem to have resilience. At the moment her beauty is working against her, although Mrs Mantalini certainly sees it as an asset with her customers.
Frances wrote: "I'm always interested in the horrible (step)mother/apparently well brought-up child(ren) combinations we so often see. Here Mrs Nickleby appears selfish and somewhat deluded (having driven her husb..."I find this theme interesting too. it appeared in North and South where Mrs Hale is depicted as selfish and lazy, caring more for herself than her children. Also, Mrs Bennett in Pride and Prejudice is pictured as ridiculous. And now we have awful Mrs Nickleby. Oh dear, older really are a pain aren't they? Or are they? Does this say something about the period, the writers, and sexism?
Mod
I don't think Nicholas had much of a choice in the matter. He made a formal pleading on behalf of Smike which Mr. Squeers ignored. (It is not in his character for Squeers to be moved by such a request) Anyhow, Nicholas felt it as an affront. All the same, being a man and a kind-hearted one he couldn't sanction the cruelty carried out in front of his very eyes. And there was the blow to him which he in his possible dignity ignore. All these reasons made him act as he did.
Mr. Squeers well deserved every blow he got for his cruel treatment to those poor children under his charge. And as you said Trev, every blow was against the cruelty and inhumanity practiced in Yorkshire boarding schools. But I don't think this will be the end of the Squeers. I'm sure Dickens has more consequences planned for them.
It is interesting to note your comment on Kate's beauty working against her. It certainly is at the moment. Also doesn't it ring true even in the present-day? A beautiful woman or an accomplished woman always faces the jealousies of the fellow tribe.
Robin wrote: "Frances wrote: "I'm always interested in the horrible (step)mother/apparently well brought-up child(ren) combinations we so often see. Here Mrs Nickleby appears selfish and somewhat deluded (having..."A good point, Robin. Sexism? I’m not sure, as 2 of the writers were women themselves. Perhaps they were just irritated by the way some women behaved at the time. Such behaviour probably made it more difficult for other women to be taken seriously.
Mod
These characters stemmed from somewhere. Austen is known for her power of observation. So Mrs. Bennet could be formed out of someone she has known or seen. And I believe in the other two instances also they come from some characters that they've somehow known. (I've already mentioned that Mrs. Nickleby was more or less modeled on Dickens's mother). We may give allowance to a bit of exaggeration, but I believe they stemmed from the real people the authors have known. And I believe all three authors used these characters to prove a point.
That's interesting that Mrs. Bennett from Austen has been mentioned in the same light as Mrs. Nickelby, there is a character in Mansfield Park that I find just as irritating and subtly manipulative.
Mod
Are you referring to Lady Bertram or Mrs. Norris, Brenda? I think both can equally come under the description.
Definitely Mrs. Norris, sometimes Lady Bertram, and also Mary Crawford. There are actually a lot of characters in Mansfield that are so over the top, I'm having a hard time getting through it.I'm wondering though, in relation to Dickens and the period if some of it was just the times? As related earlier, in most instances, women weren't taken seriously, were just the lesser sex prone to sensitives, etc. It seems more than not, female characters are portrayed as silly, just looking for a husband and of no other regard.
Or perhaps its just more satire and humor and I should laugh about it more than take it so seriously? Austen is known for her humor, and Dickens can also be very witty, so maybe I'm just being too serious and need to be more lighthearted?
I think there are one or two female characters who show strength and determination in this novel at least.We are not very far into the novel yet but I think vulnerable Kate is showing her mettle despite feeling miserable. She may possibly become a force to be reckoned with. I hope so. At the moment she is at the mercy of both her mother and Ralph, but I do think she will overcome the problems at Mantilinis even if it means leaving.
There is also Mrs. Kenwig who seems to rule to roost in that household and is responsible for Nicholas obtaining employment, thus gaining some independence from Ralph and allowing him to hold his head above water. The family’s esteem may also give Nicholas more confidence in what is bound to be a difficult time ahead.
I agree, there are female characters in the book, especially Kate whom I admire and look forward to their development. I wasn’t trying to say they were all like that. Sometimes though characters like her mother, even though they are a side character, can be overwhelming, that was just my thought, just a little too much for me. But I think that can be Dickens style at times as well as Austen’s and probably others.
Mod
Women's position was a very much dependant one, especially legally. So for their comfort and well being they had to look for some male authority. This was a very difficult situation. And also their education was limited and domestic orientated. Perhaps these authors used certain female characters in their books to satirically and wittily to points out the defects of this social and legal system concerning women.
Mod
Trisha wrote: "Robin wrote: "Frances wrote: "I'm always interested in the horrible (step)mother/apparently well brought-up child(ren) combinations we so often see. Here Mrs Nickleby appears selfish and somewhat d..."Alas, I'm not sure that we cant be guilty of sexism in our writing. I think that it is possible that the difficult older woman was a perfect foil in literature, few would have seen it as sexism, but from a modern stance it is possible to see it that way. I am sure though, that we can find ridiculous male figures as well , and there may even be a pattern. Thank you, for taking up my point.
I really enjoyed the first chapters after Nicholas's escape from Dotheboy Hall. The multitude of characters, colourful, and well described with witty commentary really lifted the novel, in my view. In contrast, the introduction to Chapter 14 is dismal - the environment in which these colourful figures live is 'bygone, faded, tumbledown'. The area is one that used to be wealthier, now its inhabitants are jumbled together in houses that used to belong to a family and servants. Clearly, Nicolas is 'not out of the woods' yet if he is to live here. However, it appears to offer far more than the school, or the conditions he and Smike encountered on their travel to London. The picture of spare furniture on the landings also depicts the differences between those families who live on he the lower floors, and those relegated to the top echelon . A mahogany table versus deal chairs, no less. Dickens seems to me to do so much better here, the descriptions are detailed, but not overwhelming. We are not forced into seeing the horrors that were so confronting in the school scenes. It seems to me that this writing is more likely to persuade the reader than that in the earlier passages.Noggs lives at the top of the building, in a partitioned garret. He is far from the surrounds of Barnard Castle of which he wrote to Nicholas. However, Noggs is the recipient of an invitation, which he could not refuse, of the Kenwigs, a wealthier (comparatively) family as they live downstairs.
And in a few sentences, we find that Mr Kenwigs is 'a person of some consideration' because of his living quarters.
The subtilty of these chapters with their description of why it is rather nice to know the Kenwigs, the role of the rates collector when he comes unaccompanied by the tools of his trade, and the food and other preparations are really wonderful. I'm beginning to really enjoy this novel, after a rather gritty and uneven start (the writer and my reading).
Mod
I am wondering about the social commentary in the discussion of the Kenwigs' dinner party. Dickens is almost sneering at the way in which the Kenwigs' reflect the social mores they assume will make them appear to be of a better social class. The way in which the lack of space is dealt with - the children cannot go to bed as they sleep in the quarters in which the celebrations are taking place, for example. These matters are managed with subtlety, but nevertheless , we are inclined to laugh at the Kenwigs' pretentions. Will some of the characters with whom we are encouraged to have sympathy turn out to actually be in this class? And does this make them better in Dicken's eyes? Is it only particular people, circumstances and professions of which he is critical? I am also interested in the tax collector - clearly a negative character - and wonder if there are particular circumstances that make him a negative character? A social commentator writing today would not see the collection of taxes to provide public housing, schooling, transport and infrastructure as a negative activity. Is it that in Dicken's day tax collection hit the poorest hardest, and it was seen as a rich person's benefit, with the poor paying?
Mod
Dickens does seem to laugh at the pretentious folks. It is evident from the satire directed at the Kenwigses.
On the social commentary, the tax collector represents the government institutions. And the negative impression made on him is Dickens's way of showing the negative side of these institutions and the tax and rate systems. I believe they were hard on the poor.
Robin, we have different views about the tax collector. My impression was that some people looked up to him as being important, so perhaps I misread the situation. I definitely disagree with your comment about taxes providing housing etc, but only because I don’t think you remember the old system used here (either you are not in the UK or are too young!) He wasn’t a tax collector in the sense you mean - he was mentioned as collecting water rates. So basically he was collecting payment for the water people used. It was considered unfair by some, as the payment was based entirely on the value & size of the building not how much water was used. A few people still choose to pay this fixed charge, while most of us have water meters. When I changed my home to using a meter, my payments became only about a quarter of those under the old system.
Mod
Thank you very much for this explanation, Trisha. It cleared some of my misunderstandings too.
Trisha wrote: "Robin, we have different views about the tax collector. My impression was that some people looked up to him as being important, so perhaps I misread the situation. I definitely disagree with your c..."Thank you Trisha. I'm not young, but also do not live in the UK. We pay water rates here to the local government, on the basis of what we use. Of course, in some ways this is not fair as two people households use less than large families , who might be poorer. However, I think that usage is simple, and the unfairness is taken up with other social welfare payments. However, that is a digression. Your point makes it clear that the tax collector had a particular role that indeed might not be positive.
I'm a little behind in the chapters but having just finished chaptrt XVIII I can't help but comment on the characters we've been introduced to. What I have always loved about Dickens in all his novels is his ability to built these amazing characters into a story in such a short amount of time and with so little background info. I absolutely loved the scene with the MP in which it became clear that Nickolas' job would be to essentially do the MPs job for him while making him look all the better. I loved Miss Knag's incessant chattering with the constant "hem" interjected so that no one can get a word in edgewise. Mr. Mantalini's lecherous behaviour was so grotesque, and Mrs. Mantalini's simpering and constant need of reassurance from her dirty old letch of a husband was so entertaining. I just feel like I know all these people....I've met them! that's what I love about Dickens :)
Mod
You've summed up well Dickens's ability to create all these wonderful characters so that they become quite intimate with the readers. That is one of his masteries. I'm so glad you are enjoying the characters. We all do. :)
It is quite alright to be behind. The threads will be there for you to post your thoughts when you are ready.
Brenda wrote: "I agree, there are female characters in the book, especially Kate whom I admire and look forward to their development. I wasn’t trying to say they were all like that. Sometimes though characters l..."
I am a big fan of Dickens (based on the books of his I have read), but by and large when it comes to women, I think Trollope does a much better job of portraying them. That said, there are a couple of excellent women in some of Dickens' later books. I just don't think he really understood them the way Trollope seems to have. I can't think of her name, but he has one quite good female character in Our Mutual Friend who actually shows character growth, etc.
Mod
Sometimes thou..."
I haven't read Trollope so I cannot draw a comparison, but I agree with you that Dickens's women characters are mostly portrayed as vain, silly, and weak. I think these portrayals resulted from how he saw his mother and wife. In his mind, they were unsupportive and weak, and this perception was naturally poured into his female characters. However, as you've quite rightly said we do see strong and supportive female characters in his later works. This is true both in Bleak House and Our Mutual Friend in the characters of Esther Summerson and Lizzie Hexam respectively. I read in an article that his relationship with Miss Ellen Ternan helped him significantly to alter his opinion on females and the result is that we meet some wonderful female characters in his later works.
What did you think of that little episode? I felt Dicken’s love for drama was at heights here.
We are introduced to the lodgings of Mr. Noggs, and we meet his landlord, Mr. Kenwig, and his family. Some more incidental characters in the form of acquaintances of the Kenwigs are also introduced.
Apart from introducing the readers to Nogg's aboard, what was the significance of this chapter?
Nicholas makes his appearance at the Nogg’s lodgings with Smike. Mr. Noggs welcomes them within his capacity. From Mr. Noggs, Nicholas learns that his uncle Ralph has received a letter from Fanny Squeers at Dotheboy Hall. The letter exaggerates what actually took place and also includes false allegations. It seems Fanny is intent upon taking revenge from Nicholas for rejecting her. Nicholas wants to confront his uncle and tell the truth so no false information will reach his mother and sister, but Noggs put a temporary stop on the attempt.
Nicholas seeks employment. Through an employment office, he was directed for the vacancy of a secretary at an MP's office. This doesn't go well with Nicholas and the offer is declined.
What did you think of the little episode at MP's office?
Having failed to come across more suitable an employment, Nicholas accepts the position of a private tutor to teach French for the Kenwig children. Nicholas’s “heroic” rescuing of their infant child from the possible fire has earned him a favour from Mrs. Kenwig, the offer comes spontaneously.
Kate in the capacity as one of the main characters makes her appearance. Despite her apprehensions over her new employment, she sets for work at the appointed hour. She is not comfortable there but tries to make the best of it. Unfortunately, her youth and beauty make her an enemy of the vain Miss. Knag, the chief assistant of Mrs. Mantalini’s establishment.
What are your thoughts on Mantalini's establishment and Miss. Knag?
What did you think of this segment?
(Please be kind enough to restrict your comments to the relevant chapters to avoid any spoilers)