21st Century Literature discussion

This section is for discussing the second half starting with “The Case of Rudolf Sass" on p. 194 (UK MacLehose ) / p. 181 (US New Directions) as well as the entire book.

I finished this recently and had planned to go right on to EEG, but I think I'll pause a bit to let this one set awhile. The novel is quite sobering. I enjoyed the novel but not as much as others I consider of similar style. I think my issue was lack of enough familiarity with many references that Drndić makes. Hence, it sometimes felt like intellectual name dropping instead of relevancy. This probably was not a problem for readers with a stronger background in European intellectual sources. I will add thoughts as others comment on the book.

I finished yesterday and wrote my review. Now what to contribute here.

Let's start with "The Case of Rudolf Sass." I found that part of the book to be the easiest to read and the most engrossing from the standpoint of enjoyable reading while learning about a new to me piece of WWII history.

Then we are back to the story of Andreas Ban jammed full with names of people, places, and events of which I was mostly unfamiliar and with Ban's endless medical issues and the challenges of the Croatian healthcare system. Parts were engrossing, such as the trip to Amsterdam. I thought the ending was well done. I will continue to wonder where Ban has gone to.

Overall, it was not the most enjoyable reading experience. I appreciate what the author was doing and I think the book is an important one. I think I would have gotten more out of it if I had more indepth knowledge of 20th and 21st century Croatian history, especially of the political leaders.

I finished this last week. Still haven't written a review, which I'll probably take on later this weekend. It's such a huge book in terms of issues/depth/emotion. It's hard to know where to start in terms of commenting---it sucks you into history and horror pulling you toward oblivion. The phrase that hit me immediately and only got stronger as I read this book was: "to bear witness."

And it's certainly not about only the past as both Ban and today's headlines point toward a Croatia either still whitewashing history or struggling with xenophobia ("Refugees report abuse by Croatian police... ").

I'm going to dump a truncated version of my notes here in hopes they might spur discussion but no one should feel obligated to read or respond to them.
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NOTES (Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter)

- Brash beginning; protest by silence (sewn lips); talking/memory leads to despair/suicide; feels like a desire to leave memory/history/body behind

-To bear witness risks sanity, questions identity

-The importance of names; names as a way to not be forgotten

-Cancer of society/cancer of the body; to confront history is to be driven mad; not confronting it still means it will grow malignantly inside you (P39: "...this illness connected with the awareness of the self, with a distorted reflection of our lives, is not a specific kind of illness, but a phenomenon more less common in the fragmented, perforated times we live in." P111: "...it is precisely about things which it is impossible to speak of that one must speak…" --- we have a moral obligation to bear witness, to remember); all the more relevant because the younger generations are ignorant and unconcerned, and anti-semitism, hate, racial purism, etc. are on the rise; one-sided portrayal of history alive and well today--celebration of Ante Pavelic, fascist leader)

-History as still being whitewashed; troubles still present; individuals try to rewrite their own history (P45 Carlos Ketz visit antique shops and buys framed family portraits of strangers that he adopts as part of his own family/history); try to make up for "the sins of the fathers"; Ban is sort of an innocent bystander during the first half but we learn he's "implicated" by way of his uncle Dr. Bruno who was part of the Ustasha (ah, the skeletons that come out of the closet at funerals)

- Birds as symbolic (p176: “Small birds, they die when they are alone. He, Andreas Ban, is alone.”)

- So many gut-punching anecdotes:

-Lieutenant Colonel Mervin Willett Gonin’s diary story about lipstick restoring humanity to the concentration camp victims found alive (p151); antipode: Madam Ema, cancer patient, failing to show up with her usual make-up and admitting her act is a “comedy” (p168)

-P169: Robert reading Mrs. Dalloway, dip into depressing summary of book, than Ban asks Robert what he thinks and Robert has to write back that he can’t speak because he has throat cancer

-When visiting the Hague, Ban is having dinner and his companion says something that seems like a masked warning about history and the foreshadowing of the monument to the Jewish children of the Hague (p276): “You can’t swim in the sea at Scheveningen, it has currents that sweep people away, never to be seen again, so why would you look at it?”

- The victim lists (Šabac Jewish refugees (1,055) and the Hague children (2,061) ; experience of reading such lists name by name---temptation to skim; emotionally exhausting to really internalize what those lists represent (e.g., to think about a 2 yr. old being taken from her parent; to wonder whether similar surnames were siblings, married couples, etc.)

- Idealizing art and nature; art/culture perceived as good but easily bent toward propaganda; nature as some sort of ideal held in higher regard than human life... still thinking about this one as I didn't really truly understand Ban's dislike of nature or dislike of Croatian nature worship

Marc wrote: "...nature as some sort of ideal held in higher regard than human life... still thinking about this one as I didn't really truly understand Ban's dislike of nature or dislike of Croatian nature worship"

Marc, I love your notes and had similar reactions to some aspects of this very complex, but profoundly moving, novel.

As for your question about the nature, when I read those passages about the fetish of nature in NDH and the glorification of nature in service of ultranationalism (not for the value of nature itself), I immediately recalled the infamous 'home' footages by Eva Braun where the scenery of landscapes and "folks ways" alternate with the images of Hitler and the parade of their Nazi guests like Goebbels and others.

I understood that, it is only in this context of Nazi/Ustasha fetishization of the 'purity' of the German/Croatian 'landscape', that is, in their land, that Ban developed the aversion toward it. It served as the propaganda metaphor for the 'purity' of their 'race' or ethnicity.

Here's the passage:

“the Women’s Ustasha Youth organization [...] that jovial organization for the corporeal and social strengthening of Croatian girls and young women, the future multiparae, who go to rallies and scamper joyfully in the Croatian countryside. Ah, how this obsession with nature so integrated in the psychophysical complex of crazed rightists, fascists, Nazis, Ustashas and other defenders of the hearth becomes a nauseating, porous front for hypnotizing the Lord’s flock, so that Andreas Ban, under attack by that natural dominion, increasingly shuns nature, I can no longer stand nature and its beauties, he says, shutting himself in his miniature Hades.” (pp. 75-6)

Marc, thanks for sharing your notes. They have assisted in bringing to focus some of my thoughts surrounding the large, impactful themes of this book. I agree that mind and body are fighting cancer, both physical and societal.
P39: "...this illness connected with the awareness of the self, with a distorted reflection of our lives, is not a specific kind of illness, but a phenomenon more less common in the fragmented, perforated times we live in."

Can loss of identity manifested as an illness be treated efficaciously? In other words, is ...... "the graffito Therapy is freedom"(p39) accurate?
((- Birds as symbolic (p176: “Small birds, they die when they are alone. He, Andreas Ban, is alone.”).)) I had not caught this bird reference (thanks, Marc). Perhaps, the birds symbolize the freedom being sought.
Ban seems to ponder how to proceed in his current mental and physical state, (p38): " ...our existence is more invented and imagined than real, and so now Andreas Ban does not know what to do with his present state,..." Ban wishes to avoid "institutional neurosis" (p40), which he knows all too well. "Where am I, asks Ban, inside or out?" (p41) Perhaps, this thought process leads him to what he perceives to be his only hope, to die alone by suicide.

After reading over the posts I realized that my and LindaJ's posts might give the impression we disliked the book. That is far from the truth. I enjoyed it and will get to EEG in July but have to finish some current reads first. I did feel that something was left unfinished so I look forward to the sequel.

Sam wrote: "After reading over the posts I realized that my and LindaJ's posts might give the impression we disliked the book. That is far from the truth. I enjoyed it and will get to EEG in July but have to f..."

Thank you, Sam. I completely understood you and that the lack of familiarity with some public figures or artists and writers she mentions from Central Europe and ex-Yugoslavia might sometimes get in the way to the full immersion into the reading. That's understandable.

I've already read EEG when it was announced on the related group, M&G, that it was longlisted for the BTBA, which it eventually won. I will not give any spoilers except to say that Dasa Drndic will give you the answer on the very first page of EEG. In fact, the very first sentence.

Vesna, thanks for pointing out that passage---I couldn't relocate it (I love reading paper copies of books, but it pales in comparison if you want to search for a term or passage in an ebook!). Even nature gets propagandized and, for Ban, forever tarnished.

Sarah, I think you're right about the symbolism of the birds being about freedom. There were a few other bird-related passages, but I didn't mark them down. Birds also seem like a rather fragile environmental warning system, as well, being sensitive to changes/certain viruses/etc. You wrote about Ban: "Perhaps, this thought process leads him to what he perceives to be his only hope, to die alone by suicide." Seems almost ironic that the plight of the melancholic would be to feel this way but be unable to consummate the act, so to speak. It's so bleak. Understandable, but bleak.

Sam, I didn't get the impression you didn't like it, so much as it is not a book one describes as "enjoying" and the number of references served as a limiter to how deeply you connected with it (I ended up looking up a lot of names and places; sometimes, I find this an enjoyable process as a reader and sometimes it feels like too much work).

Does anyone know how closely Ban's personal life overlaps Drndić's? (Thinking here, mainly, of experience with psychology, the university forcing Ban into retirement, and the numerous viewpoints about the decline of writing and its value in society.)

Marc wrote: "Does anyone know how closely Ban's personal life overlaps Drndić's?..."

A lot. I mentioned it on the thread for the first part that sometimes it's difficult to disentangle Ban's from her life, or those in her family Just to mention a couple of details you asked about: She herself was forced into a retirement the moment she turned 65 at the University of Rijeka (it's not common to retire active academics at that age but the law protected them because she was 65); she wasn't a psychologist, but her mother was... etc. She did object when critics and even her friends thought that Ban was her alter ego and she preferred the readers to see Ban as a fictional character. The similarities, however, and sometimes identical bio details are stunning though.

Thanks, Vesna. I thought I remembered you posting about that, but wasn't sure where I'd seen it. I feel like Ban's collection of psychology books could be a thesis topic of its own!

Does she incorporate photos into most or some of her other books, as well? (This is the only book of hers I've read. It certainly won't be the last as EEG is on my radar for this year, as well.)

How did others feel about her use of photos and its impact upon the story?

I finished reading four days ago but wanted some time to let this book sink in. As I wrote on the first thread, I never read something like this.

The lists of victims left me speechless. It is one thing to read that 1,055 Jewish refugees were murdered in Sabac, or that 2,061 children were killed in The Hague, but it is completely different to read their names and ages. With these lists, Drndic moves us from statistics to the actual lives of the people who were killed. I read each one of those names, skimming them would just be wrong. I think that was probably what she intended, to avoid the depersonalized numbing effect of sheer statistics.

The photos had the same effect on me. How shattering it was to see, and not only read about, the memorial to the Jewish children killed in The Hague at a playground near where they went to school. It is described as “six shiny climbing frames of various heights that resemble chairs”, but, alas, the photo shows empty chairs that will never be sat in because the children were all taken. And then the list with their names and ages…

And then there is the tragic personal story and mystery of Andreas Ban’s physical illnesses and cancer. My initial thought was that this was caused by the despair of having to live in such a provincial town; provincial both geographically and spiritually in the attitudes of the people who live there. But maybe it is also caused by his own despair at learning of his own family connection (through his uncle) to the WW2 Croatian regime. Or maybe it wasn’t metaphor at all, now that I learn here about Drndic going through the similar illnesses when she wrote her last works.

It had such a strong imprint on me that I couldn’t switch to another fiction after reading it, so I turned to the nonfiction “Say Nothing” by Patrick Radden Keefe. It begins with a quote from Viet Thanh Nguyen: “All wars are fought twice, the first time on the battlefield, the second time in memory”. This quote would be equally at home in Drndic’s book as well.

Joe wrote: "I finished reading four days ago but wanted some time to let this book sink in. As I wrote on the first thread, I never read something like this.

The lists of victims left me speechless. It is one..."

Better make room for a summer read next. Say Nothing is pretty cheesiness too.

Sam wrote: "Better make room for a summer read next. Say Nothing is pretty cheesiness too."

Did you mean “cheerless” and “cheesiness” was just some autocorrect gremlin? It’s certainly cheerless but, like Belladonna, a captivating read.

Joe wrote: "... Viet Thanh Nguyen: “All wars are fought twice, the first time on the battlefield, the second time in memory”. This quote would be equally at home in Drndic’s book as well."

That's a great quote, Joe.

Joe wrote: "Sam wrote: "Better make room for a summer read next. Say Nothing is pretty cheesiness too."

Did you mean “cheerless” and “cheesiness” was just some autocorrect gremlin? It’s certainly cheerless bu..."

Cheerless was what I meant. Typing on the tablet not only has the drawback of the input from my clumsy fingers and the autocorrect which gets quite inventive, but the small screen which I can barely see, so that my errors go unnoticed. Thanks for the correction.