Victorians! discussion

Nicholas continues to have his theatrical successes and his efforts to make Smike get into actor shoes go well too. We witness a wedding in this segment. It is from Mr. Lilyvick and Miss Petowker. It came as quite a surprise. Dickens's humorous description of the said marriage and his witty dialogues on the event made this episode hilarious.

Was anyone else surprised by these proceedings? What did you think of it?

We get to Kate’s story again. It seems she is not free from the persecutions of Sir Mulberry. He is determined to take his revenge. Sir Mulberry is determined to find where Kate lives, so he incites the Young Lord Verisopht to inquire from Ralph, knowing he could not deny him. Ralph being sly doesn’t give the information directly to the young lord but hints that he could find it from his office. But before they proceed they are met with Mrs. Nickleby who has come to Ralph’s office and seeing her Sir Mulberry changes his plan and charms Mrs. Nickleby in the hope of leaning of Kate. Mrs. Nickleby’s idiocy has no bounds. Thinking that Sir Mulberry seeks Kate’s hand in marriage, she allows the wicked Sir Mulberry to take advantage of her.

Accidently they all meet at the opera and without much ado, Sir Mulberry finds the place of Kate’s present living. The harassment of Kate continues. The unwanted attention of Sir Mulberry and Lord Verisopht towards Kate gives rise to jealousy of her new employer, Mrs. Whitterly. Mrs. Whitterly’s unjust accusations bring Kate to the snapping point and Kate defends herself passionately agitating Mrs. Whitterly.

How do you feel about Kate’s new employment? Do we see another Miss Knag in her? Mr. Whitterly seems a little kind but he is silly and vain.

Kate goes to Ralph for help but finds no help from that quarter. Kate shows some strength of Nicholas when she speaks her mind to Ralph. Mr. Noggs decides it is time to let Nicholas know of Kate’s difficulties.

Meanwhile, Nicholas too seems to have rivals within the theater company. Mr. Lenville and Mr. Folair’s conduct against Nicholas was quite hilarious.
What did you think of this dramatic addition? :)

Nicholas is uneasy by Mr. Noggs’s letter and decides to leave the theater and go back to London. The theater company is not pleased but Nicholas is quite determined. After a farewell performance, he quits them and heads for London.

Did you enjoy this segment? What are your thoughts?

Beginning of ch 28, when Sir Mulberry Hawk is thinking back on his treatment of Kate and thinking he'd done well and should continue his pursuit, Dickens says

These cases of injustice, and oppression, and tyranny, and the most extravagant bigotry, are in constant occurrence among us every day. It is the custom to trumpet forth much wonder and astonishment at the chief actors therein setting at defiance so completely the opinion of the world; but there is no greater fallacy; it is precisely because they do consult the opinion of their own little world that such things take place at all, and strike the great world dumb with amazement.

So Sir Mulberry is just behaving as men in his circle would behave, and apparently has no notion that his actions would be considered reprehensible to most people outside his group (of wealthy and entitled aristocrats?). This is so relevant to today as well, where small groups might adopt as acceptable beliefs or behaviours that the world at large finds appalling, but because they and their friends all think this way it seems normal and reasonable.

I was also very impressed by Nicholas' restraint in the face of significant flirting by Miss Snevellici, aided by her friends, in the last chapter:

but these, heightened as they were by the artifices of Miss Ledrook, had no effect whatever in increasing the attentions of Nicholas who, with the precedent of Miss Squeers still fresh in his memory, steadily resisted every fascination, and placed so strict a guard upon his behaviour that when he had taken his leave the ladies were unanimous in pronouncing him quite a monster of insensibility.

Frances wrote: "Beginning of ch 28, when Sir Mulberry Hawk is thinking back on his treatment of Kate and thinking he'd done well and should continue his pursuit, Dickens says

These cases of injustice, and oppres..."

It seems Dickens is referring to upper-class debauchery as something of an "accepted conduct" of that circle of men. When you read many classics of the Victorian era and the periods before this can be very clearly seen. The poor helpless beauties are nothing but toys for these men to satisfy their lust. Dickens is being critical here.

I too found Nicholas's restraint quite admirable. He certainly has learned his lesson from Miss Squeer's episode. :)

Nicholas has moved from teacher to accomplished writer and performer with apparent ease. There are many famous people in real life who started out as teachers. They include Louisa M. Alcott, Art Garfunkel, George Orwell, Sheryl Crow, J. K. Rowling, Sting and Kris Kristofferson. There are many more. Nicholas is showing that he Is adapting well to the many changes thrown at him and at the same time is winning many friends. Miss Snevellici’s attentions are only to be expected but his disinterested reaction shows just how much he has learned from the incident with the young ladies at Dotheboys Hall.

It didn’t take long for the slimy aristocrats Mulberry and Verisopht to continue the pursuit of the unfortunate Kate. Not even her own admirable bravery and fortitude can keep them at bay it seems. Mulberry sees Kate’s admonishment of him as both a challenge and a necessity for retribution. Ralph’s temporary pangs of guilt have been quelled by the promise of yet more money coming his way even if it is at the expense of his niece’s ruination. He tries to pretend this will not happen but he is in fact bluffing himself and he shows his willingness to put his head in the sand whilst Mulberry has his revenge. There is a hint from Noggins that Nicholas might save Kate, let us hope so. Otherwise Kate’s only chance could be to run away.

Dicken’s attempt at humour with Pyke and Pluck fell totally flat with me because of the fact that they were so complicit in the attempted destruction of Kate. Everything they did was designed to hand up Kate on a plate to Sir Mulberry, so I found their antics distasteful, knowing what real motives lay behind everything they did and said.

Trev wrote: "Everything they did was designed to hand up Kate on a plate to Sir Mulberry, so I found their antics distasteful, knowing what real motives lay behind everything they did and said...."

I agree with you there, Trev. However more surprising is Mrs. Nickleby's behavior. Mrs. Nickleby's vanity is such that she played right into their hands. She just could take the words of two unknown gentlemen as true when Kate has never mentioned either Sir Mulberry or Lord Verisopht. And besides Kate was ill after the party, but she never tried to find out if anything was wrong. She has no intuition.

Piyangie wrote: "Trev wrote: "Everything they did was designed to hand up Kate on a plate to Sir Mulberry, so I found their antics distasteful, knowing what real motives lay behind everything they did and said...."..."

Yes, as every chapter goes by Mrs. Nickleby becomes more and more likely to put her children in danger than support or protect them. Her wild imagining of Kate being married to one or the other of Sir Mulberry or Lord Verisopht doesn’t even consider Kate’s feelings towards them. In fact she never asks her. I am worried about Kate’s reluctance to burst Mrs Nickleby’s bubble, because by not disagreeing with her mother’s ideas of the two noblemen she is outwardly condoning their actions. She has vowed to Ralph that she won’t see or talk to them them again but how will she achieve this, knowing as we do how conniving Mulberry is? Kate needs to put her mother straight about the lewdness of the aristocrats and the complict role of her brother-in-law.

Trev wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Trev wrote: "Everything they did was designed to hand up Kate on a plate to Sir Mulberry, so I found their antics distasteful, knowing what real motives lay behind everything they ..."

Kate feels it is useless in telling her mother who is determined to think she is right, when in fact she is not. She knows she has to battle it alone with no help from either mother or uncle. I'm hopeful now that Nicholas has decided to come back to London that she will have some kind of protection.

There was a lot going on in these chapters!

I was so excited for Nicholas and I think moreso for Smike with the acting success. Smike has known nothing but a horrible life until meeting Nicholas for the most part, so I’m so happy for him that he can experience some of the world and find some happiness.

I was absolutely surprised by Lilyvick wanting to marry Miss Petowker. Dickens likes to put interesting swerves in the story line from time to time. I’m curious if it will come up again or if that’s it.

I loathe Mulberry. The whole charade from beginning to end between him and Lord V and the theater and coming to the Whitterly’s was horrid and just never ending in their pursuit. What I don’t understand is I thought Lord V really fancied her and he and Mulberry have this whole thing going on together, but Mulberry seems to be the would-be conquistador. Bravo for Kate to standing up to Ralph. And truly it brought a tear to my eye with Noggs reaction. Never from the beginning when we first meet Noggs as Ralphs aide would I have thought he’d come to be the champion of the Nickelby children. I wonder if there is something deeper, it seems like there was an allusion earlier on?

I’m glad Nicholas is returning to London. Mrs. Whitterly is not a good ally by making Kate seem to be the culprit and her mother is utterly delusional. I think Kate knows there’s no swaying that tree (actually either of the ladies). I would think Nicholas has a bit of money now, and maybe he can do some theater in London as he has a good reputation and experience.

In all, I was so happy for Nicholas and Smike, and agree with others thoughts on how Nicholas is growing, but poor Kate…I just couldn’t bear any of those conniving men, and I just feel for her. I don’t think it would do any good to tell her Mother, it seemed like that’s what Kate’s thoughts were after she read her mother’s letter. If we remember how fast the Mrs. was to side against Nicholas just because of Ralph that she really has no sense of her children, or anyone. She gets an idea into her head and I think that’s the end of it whether there is merit or not.

The treatment of Kate, from her uncle, her mother and her persecutors continues to be appalling.

I wonder why Mrs Nickleby is so completely without any redeeming features? The portrayal of a middle-aged widow with two children looking for a way to continue the comfortable life she has lost through her husband's death could have been positive. She could have taken on economic responsibilities, as indeed have other single women in this novel. Is it possible that women of Mrs Nickleby's age are given fairly detailed roles so as to make the comparisons starker? Kate and Nicholas are clearly taking on roles that would have not been countenanced if they had remained in their former life. Now Kate has worked in a hat work shop, been hostess to Ralph's dinner party, and a companion. Nicholas has been a teacher and an actor. Mrs Nickleby has 'made a home' for them. But what a home. It is not a place of succour for the distressed Kate or maligned Nicholas. It is where they go to be fed and warmed with the provisions from their employment, and, more importantly, to be disbelieved.

At the moment, I am in two minds about this novel. In many ways the characters that Nicholas, in particular, meets, appear to be more well drawn than the Nicklebys. I am more interested in Smike's background and the reasons for the animosity towards him from the Dotheboy Hall characters. Why does Ralph hate Nicholas? What is the story of Newman Noggs?

Robin wrote: "Why does Ralph hate Nicholas?..."

It is a hard question to answer. From what we know now, Ralph's hatred of Nicholas rises from his fear for the youth. Nicholas has shown he is capable of great anger in the face of injustice. And he has no esteem for Ralph which means Nicholas will have no scruple in standing against his treachery. And I also feel that Ralph despises him for his honesty, which it seems not within the vocabulary of Ralph.

Brenda wrote: "I was absolutely surprised by Lilyvick wanting to marry Miss Petowker. Dickens likes to put interesting swerves in the story line from time to time. I’m curious if it will come up again or if that’s it...."

You can never know with Dickens. I still can't understand their importance in the story, but it is nevertheless an interesting diversion. :)

Kate and Nicholas have been dealt a raw hand since their father's death, and by their family members, their mother and uncle. They both have a great moral compass and enough chutzpah to stick up for themselves. I'm looking forward to seeing them go forward after all these setbacks. Poor Kate!

I echo your sentiments Theresa!

Trev wrote: "Nicholas has moved from teacher to accomplished writer and performer with apparent ease. There are many famous people in real life who started out as teachers. They include Louisa M. Alcott, Art Ga..." I agree with you about Pyke and Pluck. They were not fun, but perhaps Dickens was trying to lighten the chapter, nice try. Mrs Nickleby snobs the poor miss La Creevy because of her supposed friendship with Lord Verisopht and Sir Hawk, this reveals once more the shallowness of her personality.

Piyangie wrote: "Robin wrote: "Why does Ralph hate Nicholas?..."

It is a hard question to answer. From what we know now, Ralph's hatred of Nicholas rises from his fear for the youth. Nicholas has shown he is capab..."

I wondered if there is a background to this. For example, has Ralph been dishonest with Nicholas's father ( I think that he must be an uncle through the father, there is no sign of it being Mrs Nickleby). Is there a possibility that there is something about an inheritance that might really belong to the descendent of Mr Nickleby, rather than Ralph Nickleby? I agree that Nicholas certainly stands up strongly for what it right , but I wonder if it is more than this. There is a possible theme of people being denied their inheritance/rights, when one thinks about Noggs Newman's past as a gentleman.

Robin wrote: "I wondered if there is a background to this. For example, has Ralph been dishonest with Nicholas's father ( I think that he must be an uncle through the father, there is no sign of it being Mrs Nickleby). Is there a possibility that there is something about an inheritance that might really belong to the descendent of Mr Nickleby, rather than Ralph Nickleby? I agree that Nicholas certainly stands up strongly for what it right , but I wonder if it is more than this..."

I doubt if it has anything to do with inheritance. As I remember from their early descriptions, Ralph as the eldest received a considerable share of his late father's money which with his efforts (dishonestly so) he made into a fortune. But as you say, there may be some reason that is connected with Ralph's past that contributes to his strong dislike of Nicholas. We may learn of them in chapters to come. :)

Daniela wrote: "Trev wrote: "Nicholas has moved from teacher to accomplished writer and performer with apparent ease. There are many famous people in real life who started out as teachers. They include Louisa M. A..."

Perhaps the use of Pyke and Pluck antics was Dickens's way of intensifying the wile conduct of Sir Mulberry rather than an attempt at humor and thereby rousing an utter contempt on him and his conduct in the readers' mind.

Robin wrote: "The treatment of Kate, from her uncle, her mother and her persecutors continues to be appalling.

I wonder why Mrs Nickleby is so completely without any redeeming features? The portrayal of a midd..."

Good point--she certainly seems to be, and I wonder if she really has no feeling for her daughter of if she just buys the lies of the time about marrying and marrying people with enough money. Did she care for her children herself or did a nurse do that? How well does she even know her daughter? Does she prefer her son? Have she and her daughter had serious falling outs in the past?

Mother-daughter relationships are often fraught with tension, but if a mother is this clueless about her daughter's feelings I can't like her even a little.

Karin wrote: "Robin wrote: "The treatment of Kate, from her uncle, her mother and her persecutors continues to be appalling.

I wonder why Mrs Nickleby is so completely without any redeeming features? The portr..."

She doesn't know her daughter - that much is obvious. And I don't think he prefers the son. She is in fact a self-centered woman, very ill-suited for the role of a mother. And like you Karin, I don't like her either. She irritates me. :)

I agree that Mrs Nickleby does not prefer her son - she very clearly prefers herself beyond any maternal feelings that she might be expected to have.

A pretty frustrating few chapters when read with a modern day lens, but considering the times I do sympathize with Kate. Women were so powerless in many ways. Just look at Ms Whitterly's pathetic "affliction of the nerves" and how her phony baloney weaknesses and sensitivities are almost a point of pride for her and Mr. Whitterly - obviously satirical, but its easy to see how little fire and gumption Kate shows to Mrs Whitterly, Sir Mullberry, and her uncle would have been seen to be shocking and discourteous. I would have preferred to see her spit in Mulberry's face.

I felt sad to see Nicholas head back to London. I hope we see more of the theatre company. I loved Miss Snevellicci and Miss Ledrook's relationship and the antics of all the theatre folks with their petty jealousies over applause etc.

I guess Nicholas at some point has to meet up again with that girl from the employment office (?).

I still feel quite certain that Uncle Ralph is going to see the error of his ways and come around, maybe with the help of Noggs. I'm waiting for a reconciliation. Maybe I'm drawing too many parallels to Scrooge and Bob Cratchit.

It must be awful to be Mrs Nickleby's daughter! what a clueless and self-centred parent!

Amanda wrote: "A pretty frustrating few chapters when read with a modern day lens, but considering the times I do sympathize with Kate. Women were so powerless in many ways. Just look at Ms Whitterly's pathetic "..."

I liked the theatre episodes too. The characters were often self centred, but harmless. They enjoyed their lives and lived them to the full. In contrast the people with whom Nicholas interacts in London are less full of life Although some are kind, the nastiness of others seems paramount. I want to run on ahead and see what happens and am restraining myself.

Amanda wrote: "I guess Nicholas at some point has to meet up again with that girl from the employment office (?)...

I've quite forgotten that and remembered when you mentioned it here. Since Dickens don't bring out random characters, I too think Nicholas will meet her. Perhaps she would be his love interest in the story or am I speculating too much? :)

I still feel quite certain that Uncle Ralph is going to see the error of his ways and come around, maybe with the help of Noggs. I'm waiting for a reconciliation. Maybe I'm drawing too many parallels to Scrooge and Bob Cratchit."..."

I too would like to see that, Amanda. That would be a pleasure. But at the moment, any reconciliation seems very far. Scrooge didn't hate Bob as Ralph does of Nicholas., so there is much to overcome.