Our Shared Shelf discussion

There is a new thoughtful Emma interview in vogue. There Emma shares her commitment to sustainable fashion and explains her role as a chair-woman for Kering. There she states
"“It became clear to me then that sustainability in fashion is a critical issue given how the industry can have damaging impacts on the environment, on workers’ rights, and on animal welfare. It is also a feminist issue. It’s estimated around 80 per cent of the world’s garment workers are women aged between 18 and 35.
What do you think about it? Is sustainable fashion linked to feminism and if yes how?

The Vogue interview is here https://www.vogue.co.uk/fashion/artic...

Mod note: Moving this discussion to the Overdressed folder in which we were discussing fast fashion.

I don't doubt Miss Watson's leadership but it will be hard for her to change things in the fashion world. As she says fastfashion is linked to women's problems. There just exists too much exploitation there, she can't change that on her own even if she is a very outspoken activist and a strong individual. I doubt her decision to become a chairwoman for Kering. Again i don't want to doubt her leadership. She has done too much already as an activist. So Jonathan you really think that she can change the fashion world as she says and more generally can the fashion world be changed?

Hello!

Thanks for bringing that topic.

I hope I won't be too bluntly 😊

Personally, I don't think sustainable fashion exists for now and I'm not sure I could exist in our current systems.
Let me explain my thoughts.

First, I dissociate fashion and current needs to wear clothes. The latter one is, in my opinion, a necessity not the top 1 but still a need while fashion is more like a hobby or something I won't qualify as essential.

Ok, now I'll try to explain why sustainable fashion, in my opinion, does not exist.

1) regarding the material used, the processes, the stains, the recycling fashion cannot be sustainable.

2) fashion changes every year, we have new trend, new clothes and the sustainable fashion cannot escape this reality. As a result, after months or years, new clothes must be manufactured. The resources used and the generated waste are not balanced out so, from my perspective, it's not sustainable. Also, fashion is a big nerve of consumption system, we need to produce because we need to make money etc...

3) many apps and brand claim they are sustainable or eco-friendly but in almost every single case it's greenwashing whether it is done consciously or not.

4) regarding the social aspect and fair trade, in my opinion, the argument that brands are being fair with workers (good working conditions, good salary, helping population), it is not enough and often fake. I mean, saying we are fair trade because we give work, good salary and good working conditions to some people in a non western country is not true. Indeed, the salary are low cost compare to the salary that would be ask in richer countries, the conditions are not comparable even though they are better. To me it's still exploitation, a less bad one but still it is using people and this cannot be considered fair or sustainable.

5) transportation, whenever we used transportation for hundreds miles it screws the carbon Footprint. So to be truly sustainable it should used impact less transports (does not exist yet) or made locally.

6) often, sustainable fashion is a term used (to what I've seen) by luxury (regarding western standards). This imply that only wealthier people can afford it, and sorry to point this out, but as long as we'll have huge social gap (among the world, and not for a country only) sustainability and non discriminated system won't be achieved.

So for now, to me, sustainable fashion does not exist. If I wanted to provoke a little I would say that "sustainable fashion" is an oxymoron. 😉

Antonio and Florian you both seem to doubt that sustainable fashion is possible. Antonio i don't think Emma can change things on her own. Even if she is a great activist as you say she needs our support in order to succeed, with our support it may be possible for her to change how things work.
Florian you state some facts. Emma has already spread awareness on the problems in the fashion world. So would you say that her commitment (and ours!) to sustainable fashion and her optimism is chasing clouds? What we should just tell her to give up?

Let me ask you questions :) show me sustainable fashion exists with a few evidence and then I'll be convinced.

I work in science in a field related to sustainability so I have a good knowledge about it but I don't know everything. So if you find a few solid facts then I might change my mind.

You misunderstand my comment. I don't consider Emma at all in this opinion.

But if you want my opinion about it here it is:

I agree with Antonio, she has proved to spread awareness about feminism but this was only possible because she is famous. Many people tried before her and it worked for a few of them. Many people were influenced but only because they are Emma followers and I have no doubt that the many of Emma's fans would change their mind if she was doing so. Yes, she has what we could say leadership but for now, it has only be shaded by her fame so I objectively cannot say anything about it. I would need to see the person and to discuss with her to make a clear opinion about it, and this will not happen because we have better things to do.

I have no doubt about her fight for feminism, she knows her stuff (at least more than many other people). She did important things, but she was also used as a tool for people's images and their reputation. For example W7 was a huge jokes, they deeply thought they could change things but their presence was just a trick. That what happens whenever one plays with politics. So yes she is a strong believer and she is motivated but once again I'm not sure about her leadership. Look at our Shared shelf, it sustained because of her fame not because she inspired people, not because she spark in them the strength to rise and fight. Okay, I admit it convinced a few people but they were already seeking in their self.

As for sustainability, I'm sorry but yes I doubt about her ability to make decision about it because of lack of knowledge. Several times she advertised "sustainable clothes" that were far from being sustainable and close to be greenwashing.

Do I want her to give up?
No, I don't. Nobody should give up on that.
Do she has what she needs to fight for feminism?
A big yes! She does has it and she proved it many times?
Does she has leadership regarding feminism?
I'm tempting to say I don't know. Everything is hidden by her fame, she tried some stuff, her fame gathered people but many were just people worshiping her and it's difficult to say whether she convinced people with her words and thoughts or if people were only attracted by her fame.

Does she has what she needs to fight for sustainable fashion or sustainability?

Clearly, and I'm sorry to hurt people's feeling but I must say what I think is true, no she does not. She has a beginning of knowledge but there is a tremendous conflict of interest and a huge lack of facts and knowledge. Yes she is aware of many things but for now that' s not enough. When one is working for clothes brand the person is largely influenced.

However I am convinced that she will learn more and more about this field and will get a strong overview of it if she keeps researching. For now not ready but in 5 years or so maybe, I hope too.

Regarding her position, I already spoke about it with friends. They were happy, I was disappointed but such appointment.
To me Emma would be extremely good at finding people good in specific field and supporting them to reach decision making positions. For instance, she should not be on the board of Kering but should have found a woman good at sustainable development to influence in such board.
Such rôle is essential. Finding and gathering people that what she would be good at in my opinion.

If course everything above is a personal opinion and by no mean I say I'm right. It's mainly what I think right now based on the information I found and I have. My thoughts might change whenever things change or I have other information.

Florian, i want to thank you for your response. Emma has achieved many things as an activist in very short time, your views reflect that and I more or less agree with you in everything you said about her.
But you are saying that sustainable fashion is doomed to failure. So her latest endeavor(after women's rights) is destined to fail.
I acknowledge that i know very little about sustainable fashion. Only after Emma started to be involved on it I started learning things about it. You say that it is just greenwashing for big enteprises if I understood correctly?
So given that there is much exploitation in the fashion world(affecting primary women) what would the solution be for you?

Jonathan, we definitely agree on many points regarding humans right ( whatever the sex and the gender).

Here is my answer for you, an answer many won't like. The solution to sustainable fashion? To end up (luxury) fashion since it is based on inequality. Without inequalities luxury cannot sustain.
To put things in perspective "why my country, France, is part of the rich country?" because we have exploited some population, because of slavery, because we are developed a system based on discrimination the use of resources from other countries. Most of the rich countries have done that.
Same for luxury product to a different scale.

I clearly make a difference between clothes industry and fashion. Fashion, to me, is not essential at all, clothes industry is needed.
Local production and consumption of goods would do less bad for sure. However this imply to rethink the entire world, rich countries refusing their privileges and working with other countries.

I cannot give you one specific solution, I could give you a few hints I know (they still are insignificant). But what I can tell is sustainable fashion cannot exist in our current world.
What is done about fashion right now is trying to make something that cannot be good less bad but at the end of the day it's still bad.

Also, I consider fashion is luxury.

Not sure if I succeed in sharing my thoughts about it.

Jonathan I don't know about Sustainable Fashion.

I agree with Florian that it will be hard to change the fashion world. As Florian puts luxury products are intrisically for the few. Exploitation is given when we design luxury things for very few people. Florian says that we should end with fashion altogether. That would be the best solution but it is meant to meet strong resistances. Luxury fashion is for few people but many people follow it.

Again I don't know about Miss Watson. I want to doubt her but every time I doubted her she proved me wrong. I heard somewhere that her Feminism kicks-ass and maybe - you never know with Miss Watson- she kicks asses in the fashion world also. Maybe she can convince fashion designer to use more recycled material and pay better their workers . But these are small things compared to the widespread exploitation that Florian descibes here .

Emma is in a hard spot.

She is trying to change a business to be more sustainable. But even she herself says the best way to be sustainable is to buy vintage clothing. A business cannot make money if people don't buy their product.

And from what we read in Overdressed, vintage in the last 20 years is no longer a viable option. By vintage it's important to make a distinction between second hand and vintage. Vintage is good quality pieces that were made with quality fabric and quality skills- not just previously worn.

With the rise of plastics, textiles have had plastic mixed in with natural fibers which have made for cheap material both in quality and expense. Therefore the market of finding still existing vintage fabric let alone a clothing piece in good condition is becoming rarer as we continue to move past the 1960's.

Let's also not confuse the fact that Emma has money. Emma has people who can shop for her and dress her so her version of vintage isn't going to be the same as someone shopping for themselves through the local goodwill or second hand shop.

Back in to her gig in this position. A) she tells everyone to shop vintage isn't a reality most can do and b) she now is on a board of a company that's tying to make money.

Just like Florian said above.. that company is a luxury brand. Luxury is all about limited availability. A diamond is considered valuable because there isn't that many of them in the world. And if it's not luxury (hand sewn, corinthian leather, swarovski crystals etc) than why are people paying $$$$+ for it?

Do you what helps things be sustainable? It's the ability to reuse them or the ability to make it cheaply. Hard to do the second when it's a limited quantity item.

And as for the reusability... Again.. it's an industry that is there to make money and one that frowns on reuseing items. People are mocked for wearing a dress multiple times to an event. We live in a culture where it's seen as the norm for someone of Emma's level for let's say a movie tour to wear more than one dress an evening. She would need a new outfit each premier, she would need an after premier evening party outfit, etc. Let alone for any of the press events. Let alone the magazine shoots which show her in multiple outfits. Etc. I.e. resusing one dress... Isn't something the industry - movies or fashion houses want. Because the more outfits a celebrity wears that's more attention to their brand. And it's more "free" publicity.

To give you example... Jane Fonda (love her or hate her) started protesting for the planet and said she wasn't going to buy one more outfit ever again. Her red coat was the last thing she was going to buy. And the fashion world hasn't been kind to her for it.

So.. ok... Maybe Emma is going to be able to stop wearing multiple outfits for events and changes that whole industry and the partnership between fashion and celebrity. There is still the rest of us who buy into the billion dollars industry.

How are the fashion houses going to make their clothes reusable while also encouraging you to buy more?

She has her work cut out for her

The problem is that a lot of ‘sustainable’ fashion is not affordable for people who don’t have much money to spend (the biggest part of the population). When you don’t have much money, you’re most likely going to spend it on clothes that are the most affordable, which you can unfortunately find in stores like H&M, Zara and other fast fashion stores. It’s hard to get rid of fast fashion if such a big part of society is forced to buy their clothes as affordable as possible, so in fast fashion stores.

Now vintage clothing should be a great solution, but around me I see that there are a lot of rumors going on about thrifted clothing. People believe you could get a sickness for example. Others embarrass you for ‘not having the money to buy luxury clothing’. In order to change the power of fast fashion companies, we have to change our society first. We can’t solve the problem if 1) the rumors about thrifting don’t stop 2) fast fashion stores are so attractive compared to sustainable stores because of the prices.

I believe we should try changing that first, and then we might get closer to the final solution.

For sure Athena!

Fast fashion is not good for sustainable world.

It's difficult topic for sure. Not easy to know what's sustainable or not. Often, I feel I reach a point of something ok, of something green or sustainable and then I realize it's not. It's less bad.

I like this discussion.