Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

Our Non-Fiction read for the next two months is A Room of One's Own by Virginia Woolf

An extended essay by Virginia Woolf, first published in September 1929. The work is based on two lectures Woolf delivered in October 1928 at Newnham College and Girton College, women's constituent colleges at the University of Cambridge.

Themes:
The Four Marys
Women's access to education
Judith Shakespeare
Building a history of women's writing
Mary Carmichael

Alice Walker Author of The Color Purple on Virginia Woolf, in her book A Room of One's Own, wrote that in order for a woman to write fiction she must have two things, certainly: a room of her own (with key and lock) and enough money to support herself. What then are we to make of Phillis Wheatley, a slave, who owned not even herself? This sickly, frail, Black girl who required a servant of her own at times—her health was so precarious—and who, had she been white, would have been easily considered the intellectual superior of all the women and most of the men in the society of her day.

I’m in for this one

Glad to have you join in.

Im contemplating this one too!

I love this book. The first time I read it I was blown away.

Thanks Kelly that is good to know!!

This is my first time reading it, I’d love a room of my own with lock and key and I’m no writer :)

That cacophonous sound you can hear is Nadezhda Mandelstam, Anna Akhmatova, Marina Tsvetaeva and Ricarda Huch having a good laugh at Virginia Woolf's precious expense...

Kathy not sure if you will see this but did you know that there is a bookstore by the name of "A Room of One's Own" in Madison, WI?

https://www.roomofonesown.com/

I read this book in November of 2016 and gave it four stars. I don't remember any particular details but I know I was impressed by her writing style.

A bunch of Victorian whinging by a cornucopia of daddy issues (turns out that Freud wasn't that far off).

There is a quote by Simone Weil: “A beautiful woman looking at her image in the mirror may very well believe the image is herself. An ugly woman knows it is not.”

I've always felt that this quote, which the Englishwoman would not have known despite the fact that Weil was her near (and much younger and more brilliant) contemporary, applied remarkably well to Woolf.

The vast majority of the greatest female writers of the 20th century didn't have anything like what was proscribed/described in A Room of One's Own, and yet they created works that equaled and superseded Woolf at her best. Anna Akhmatova did it while the NKVD was murdering her husband and imprisoning her son. Nadezhda Mandelstam wrote two of the greatest books of the century during decades of Stalinist persecution and oppression, and this was after her husband had died in a prison transit camp (he would have been destined to arrive at Kolyma if he had lived).

And Woolf has the temerity to proclaim that women need a private room in order to create? This is just pampered entitlement: a way for her to get her excuses in early. It couldn't possibly be that she wrote a terrible book about the Brownings' pet dog, it had to be because of the patriarchy.

Oh Please. Maybe Virginia Woolf needed a room of her own, but Ingeborg Bachmann was at her most creative and inspirational when she had (male) company and the door was locked, despite the persistent and crippling poverty that plagued her throughout her writing life. Incidentally, Bachmann, that totem feminist critical theory, experienced no difficulties or struggles to gain acceptance into male artistic circles. If anything, they catered and subordinated themselves to her.

Woolf blames and accuses outside forces and circumstances when she should have been examining her own personal shortcomings. The inferiority she felt was not the fault of men or patriarchal Victorian expectations, but her own neurotic personality. She could only blame daddy up to a point. After that, it was all on her (as is true of us all).

If Woolf felt excluded and unappreciated (which is such a common, natural emotion among all writers, regardless of sex or talent) then maybe the reason had been because of herself. But this of course never seems to occur to her. She's too busy complaining despite just how well she had it without even knowing it.

Pillsonista wrote: "A bunch of Victorian whinging by a cornucopia of daddy issues (turns out that Freud wasn't that far off).

There is a quote by Simone Weil: “A beautiful woman looking at her image i..."

I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you’re not a Virginia Woolf fan ;)
No author can please everyone, but she does have a large following who would disagree with you. Horses for courses and all that.

Georgina wrote: "I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you’re not a Virginia Woolf fan ;)..."

I seem to have the same conclusion 😉

Georgina wrote: "I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you’re not a Virginia Woolf fan ;)."

Indeed, but that is neither here nor there. Just because I'm no fan of Woolf does not mean I'm unable to be an objective (such as it is possible) judge of her work. Mrs. Dalloway is a work of absolute genius, I don't care how many people find it boring.

I can't stand Henry James either, and yet I'm perfectly willing to give The Portrait of a Lady, The Wings of the Dove, and The Golden Bowl their rightful tribute.

Woolf's large following is as irrelevant as the myriad of people who find Mrs. Dalloway to be boring. As you said, horses for courses...

... that is until one course becomes consensus, which has all but happened with A Room of One's Own, at least in the academic (I won't flatter it by calling it 'scholarly') circles that I worked.

We need to take into consideration that each one of us has their own likes and dislikes in literature, among other things.

I admire those women who were able to create/write in difficult situations, but not everyone can be that strong.

Each artist is an individual. Each reader is an individual too.


We need to remember that every opinion is valid in this group, whether we agree with it or not.

Pillsonista wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you’re not a Virginia Woolf fan ;)."

Indeed, but that is neither here nor there. Just because I'm no fan of Woolf does not mean I'm unable ..."

I am only part way through this so my opinion may change but I think some of the discrepancies that Woolf brings up are obviously unfair on woman and therefore put them at as disadvantage in every aspect, including in writing. The fact you’d need a male chaperone or a note to enter the library is absurd.

I think other things she’s highlighted, such as the quality of the food could be seen as spoiled, but she’s comparing it to the men at Oxbridge, not to the average working class. Why should the woman be treated as inferior in these institutions?

Many men did have the privilege of their own rooms and income to write at leisure, why should women not have the same? Those women who have written in horrendous situations are amazing, but as Rosemarie has said not everyone is able to write under those conditions.

I agree that no work should become consensus and everyone is entitled to their own opinions on any work, it’s always interesting to see things from a different viewpoint.

Rosemarie wrote: "I admire those women who were able to create/write in difficult situations, but not everyone can be that strong.

Each artist is an individual."

Absolutely. Exactly.

I would even hesitate to characterize it using the word "strong", because that implies its opposite: weakness.

Which it is absolutely not. The vast majority of writers, male or female, have to have a very specific set of circumstances in order to be able to create. Any disruption to that particular situation and they cease to be able to write.

Thomas Mann famously wrote most of Joseph and His Brothers and Doktor Faustus during his California exile, but Alfred Polgar, who's now all but unheard of and who was acknowledged as Mann's equal by no less an authority than Mann himself, couldn't write at all. In fact, Mann used his own money to save Polgar from destitution (anonymously, because he knew that Polgar would have refused it). That didn't make Polgar weak or Mann strong, it was simply two different reactions to historical circumstances beyond either man's control.

The same is true of Virginia Woolf. It's perfectly understandable and legitimate if she needed A Room of One's Own. But it becomes questionable when she extends her own narrative to women in general. Many women didn't, and don't, need "a room of their own" because they are their own unique, creative selves.

But Woolf's narrative is now taken as a given and rarely questioned, and as a result, so many extraordinary writers are often either ignored or dismissed because their examples don't fit the accepted narrative. After all, here we are discussing Virginia Woolf's proscriptions for creativity, as opposed to, say, Evgenia Ginzburg's.

Instead of "strong", maybe "focussed" is a better word, indicating an ability to concentrate.

Well I’ve finished and I did enjoy it.
I think there’s a lot of it that I would agree with, but I’m not sure I agree with the idea that some of the great female writers could have written better works had they had a room of their own. Charlotte Brontes Jane Eyre is one of my favourite books and I think her passion comes through in her writing, perhaps working alone in a study without any hardships would not have given her the life experiences to write such a novel, but I do agree there have been many women throughout history who could have written great novels had they had the space and means to do so but were not given those chances.
I also think that books are very personal, what I like others will hate so the idea of just one perfect female style felt too prescriptive to me.
So I do agree with you Pillsonista in some part, but I do think her other points about being on a more equal footing with men hold true for me.

This was my third read. I first read it in my 20s, 30 years ago. It had an impact on me, as did her novels, which floored me when I first read at 18. I am a huge Woolf fan.

I'm perplexed at the suggestion that caring for children, having no interrupted time and no space to oneself would NOT affect one's ability to write. Of course it would. I write for my job and I need some uninterrupted time to do that well and efficiently. Imagine Austen having to write in a communal sitting room with constant interruptions and then feeling compelled to hide her writing when others walked in because women weren't supposed to be writing?

Yes, there are those amazing people who can write masterpieces under duress. I think about one of the greatest writers of the 20th century, Toni Morrison, discussing writing her classic debut novel The Bluest Eye with a baby on her lap. Her child would spit up on her manuscript as she was writing it, obliterating paragraphs and requiring Morrison to rewrite portions. That was part of her "rewriting process." It's amusing, but then wow. I can't imagine. But most people (not just women) would not overcome those obstacles.

I don't write books, but I have a job that is demanding, requires concentration, strategic thinking, writing, travel and time. And is the passion that gets me up in the morning. I am grateful for the women mentors who took me aside in my 20s and gave me the honest truth that balancing it all was pretty impossible, and that I should think twice about having children if my love was the work I was doing. A few were honest in telling me that while they loved the kids they had, if they had to do it over again they would have stayed childless or had fewer. Thank God for this honesty .I chose not to have kids and am so grateful I made that choice. I cherish the "room of my own" I've created in my life. I wish more women in my mother's generation, and the generations before had had the same opportunity I had to build that room.

How can one argue that we would not have had 4, 5, 10 times more amazing women authors in the centuries before the 1800s had women not be so subjugated, forced to depend on men for support. denied the ability to make their 500 pounds, had been given the "room of one's own," however that is defined (and don't take it quite so literal), and not forced to be mothers only?

Rereading this collection of essays, I do note passages that have outdated binary perspectives on gender. (Although she broke barriers with Orlando!) Woolf is harsh on other women writers at times.

This collection of essays remains close to my heart.

Nice to see Sam how this works with your needs to be a great writer and a consideration of other Authors in their struggles.
I am not sure how some could juggle both.

Sam, I wonder if her harshness to certain other writers is due to her background and environment? Britain was a very classist society even in the early 20th century.

Rosemarie wrote: "Sam, I wonder if her harshness to certain other writers is due to her background and environment? Britain was a very classist society even in the early 20th century."

Yes, good point.

Sam wrote: "This was my third read. I first read it in my 20s, 30 years ago. It had an impact on me, as did her novels, which floored me when I first read at 18. I am a huge Woolf fan.

I'm perplexed at the su..."

Sam, thank you for your honesty. It’s fascinating to read your opinions. I have mixed feelings about Virginia Woolf & haven’t yet read this book with the group, though I read it some time ago. You have made me want to read it again. It’s good that you had such realistic mentors that helped you make difficult decisions when you were younger. I’m older than you & was always made to feel a failure because of not having children & it continues even now - just a “look” or a thoughtless comment, usually from someone I hardly know who assumes that at my age I must have grandchildren. I admire your positivity & courage.

I was also thinking about how much Woolf would have appreciated the Bechdel Test: counting the number of times in a work of fiction or a movie when two women have a conversation where the topic does not include men.

Trisha wrote: "Sam wrote: "This was my third read. I first read it in my 20s, 30 years ago. It had an impact on me, as did her novels, which floored me when I first read at 18. I am a huge Woolf fan.

I'm perplex..."

It is stunning what people will say to women without children, when they have no idea whether it was a choice or what was dealt to a person. "I didn't realize how meaningless my life was until I had children!" I just sigh at that, but I feel bad when women I know who desperately wanted children are on the receiving end. I do feel grateful that I had wonderful women mentors in my 20s (I'm in my 50s now), some who had kids, some who didn't.

Sam wrote: "This was my third read. I first read it in my 20s, 30 years ago. It had an impact on me, as did her novels, which floored me when I first read at 18. I am a huge Woolf fan.

I'm perplexed at the.."

Thank you Sam for the candid and thought-provoking points in your review. This book has now been added to my TBR ( I don't think I would have read it otherwise).

I agree with you when you say how " caring for children, having no interrupted time and no space to oneself would NOT affect one's ability to write."

@Sam: let me join the folks who thank you for your honest and insightful comment.

I'm listening to the essays at the moment (2/3 in). I've never read Virginia Woolf and knew nothing about her (well, of course I've heard her name, but nothing beyond that). I'm fascinated by her concise thoughts and witty prose and will definitely seek out one or the other novel by her.
It's a pity that having children and being productive (still to this day) is considered to exclude itself. There is still so much to do in this area. I myself was childless til the age of 40 because I, too, had the impression that children only would interfer with my choices of career and life. Now I know both and I can't say that I regretted my choices. But that is a personal decision to be made by each one individually.
The claim for a room of one's own (even literally) is something that elicited a heartfelt "yes" from me. I'm only doing creative things as a hobby, but my own room in this house is so precious and necessary to me. I need to be able to close the door onto my family to be myself for a while.

Thank you for sharing Gabi. Really nice thoughts about your room.

Gabi, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yes, people manage to do it all, or do most of it. And having some room, however it looks, she helps. And it depends on circumstances--monetary resources, whether there is a parenting partner who is an equal in the work, or at least makes it to 40 percent.

I am amazed at women like Toni Morrison--one of the greatest literary figures of the past 100 years--200 years? Who managed to write a groundbreaking debut novel with a baby on her lap. That takes focus and grit and perseverance that only a few people have. But most of the known celebrated women novelists of the 19th century were childless.

And glad you have a room! I sure need one. But sigh, even with that I'm not able to write a ground breaking novel, LOL.

Sam wrote: "Gabi, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yes, people manage to do it all, or do most of it. And having some room, however it looks, she helps. And it depends on circumstances--monetary resources, wh..."

Oh, sorry, I phrased that incorrectly (I'm not very good at written English, so I often come across a bit weird) - I did not manage to do my job and raising the children. I changed the job from quality assurance manager to children day care education. This way I could work from home and have my children with me while working. That's why I meant it is still nowadays a problem to have a career and children. I was trying to do homeoffice with my old job (my task was to establish an e-learning program on the intranet, which would have worked in home office perfectly) and met so many obstacles that I quit and changed job.

Well this was a comfortable read for me and Woolf, I have had to have complete silence and open mind to be able to read her works before.
I can understand her lecture turned to essay towards women authors of her time. Letting them know that in her opinion one needs to make a living as a woman and if you choose writing one may need a quite place to do so. For women of the times if you didnt marry well you had to have some way to support yourself.
In Woolf's opinion one needed quite to form the beauty of writing. Women were treated differently in those times and I felt like she was trying her best to help steer them in a good direction.

I also took it a little more personal. In my opinion one does need a room of one's own for a quite mind and to craft your own peace. That is why men have Man Cave's and women have She Sheds!

I agree we all need to have a space of our own for our mental health-if a physical space in the home is not available, which sadly is the case for many women, even an outside neutral space in a park or in nature helps.

It does take work to create inner peace, especially when there is so much bad news. But inner peace helps us deal with the outside world in a saner way.

Lesle wrote: "In my opinion one does need a room of one's own for a quite mind and to craft your own peace. That is why men have Man Cave's and women have She Sheds! ..."

I agree with you, Lesle. There may be exceptions, but I think generally one needs peace and quiet to call on your creative mind. I think this is what Virginia means by having a room of your own - to have a quiet space of your own.

Well said Rosemarie!

Piyangie wrote: "I think this is what Virginia means by having a room of your own - to have a quiet space of your own. ..."

I agree Piyangie I do believe your statement is very accurate.
The last part of my review actually states that for myself. Maybe the same for others.