The Sword and Laser discussion
This topic is about
Black Leopard, Red Wolf
Black Leopard, Red Wolf
>
BLRW: Should people be warned off? Or at least warned?
date
newest »
newest »
Mod
I'm 20% in and even though it is confronting, it is inside my tolerance levels. The violence (so far) is not glorified and is displayed to show the horror of the situations the characters find themselves in.
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "The other thing I wish I'd said is you might want to develop some kind of way to keep track of the characters because there are a lot of them!"
I have made a list if anyone is interested. It is from the book and is not spoilery. Unless knowing someone's name and description is a spoiler for you.
(view spoiler)
Wow, 88 characters. That puts Peter F. Hamilton to shame. I'll forward Marlon James a copy of Shrunk & White. Do you think he's an author that's gotten so big that he can't be edited anymore? I think it's already being developed for a movie. Maybe I'll wait for that. I wonder how long it'll be. A tv series is probably more appropriate.
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Someone posted at the end of the announcement thread that they wished nobody had said anything negative because they can't unread it. I could not respond since the thread is closed, so I want to op..."So part of the problem of responding to a post in another thread without reposting it, is that it is easy to mischaracterize what it says. I specifically asked for people to wait until the book month had actually started before going negative. I feel like the point of the intro thread is to get people hyped for the book, not trash it so hard no one wants to read it. (Way way back in time, Veronica specifically asked that we wait awhile to add lem posts because it was discouraging people not to read the books. I guess that is no longer the prevailing sentiment.) I also stated that trigger warnings were cool.
My original post:
I wish that people would hold off on their negative comments until after the actual month for the books has started. There is no way I can go back and unsee what I have read, and your comments are going to affect how I read the book whether I want it to or not. I often do not finish or like the books we read for the club, but I usually keep it to myself unless I have something to say other than "I hated that." The relentless negativity in some of the posts is kind of getting me down. Someone was even snotty about my march madness nomination this year. I have no problem with dissenting opinions, but can we at least have a chance to read the book? (Trigger warnings are both good and appropriate.)
Here to add my agreement on the rampant negativity in the intro threads being quite unnecessary and counterproductive for the purpose of getting people to check the book out, form their own opinions, and generate constructive discussion.It can be quite an obstacle for anyone to get excited to read the book or to post their own expressions of it, if most of the community seems to have already deemed the work irredeemable trash from the get go.
There are neutral ways to posting trigger warnings or expressing disappointment, without battering a book to death.
Adelaide wrote: "I feel like the point of the intro thread is to get people hyped for the book, not trash it so hard no one wants to read it."I'm going to disagree with this. We aren’t the marketing team for books, we’re the audience. All we should do is give our honest reactions, whether positive or negative, without spoilers.
I don’t read threads about things I don’t want spoiled or even tainted with someone else’s opinion. I loved Jade City by Fonda Lee and immediately bought the sequel Jade War, but because I developed cataracts soon after buying it I wasn’t able to read it. I still haven’t gotten to it. But in the year since it came out, I’ve avoided all discussions of the book.
I recommend that approach to everyone.
This is a very Mature book unlike some of the YA fodder we've been getting in past S&L picks.I'm about halfway through listening to it and perhaps I should list some of the books I'm reminded of at the moment.
Trainspotting by Irvine Welsh for the visceral language and general content.
Naked Lunch by William S. Burroughs for the sexual content and disjointed dream-like parts of the narrative
Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison for the attitude, anger and viewpoint.
The Famished Road by Ben Okri for the African-centred magic realism and fantasy.
If people can't take the ferocity of this book maybe The Famished Road would make a good alternate pick.
I'd like to add that people might be coming to these threads to see if the book gets better later on if it's worth getting through the awful bits That's why I went to the thread, my library had the book off of hold earlier than expected and was about 2% into the audiobook and was already having my skin crawl along with some other issues with how visual the novel was, which can make things hard for me to follow. I decided not the continue which is disappointing since I was looking forward to the book.
If you don't want to have your experience ruined by others' reactions maybe don't read the reaction threads?
Soooo... I probably should not open a thread then asking "How far have you made it?" because it would be a bit too hyperbolic negative?Because I must admit that after the intro thread i only read the first few pages on google books in German and then decided to not even try it. And I was wondering how far people got in or how many finished it.
Warnings are fine but if it became boring after two or more people saying basically the same thing. Like, we got it the first time, and then the second time. I am thankful for those who tried to balance it out with encouraging notes. I might end up hating the book or lem it but at least there is some hope before I read it.
I understand where Adelaide is coming from. before I joined S&L, when I first heard of this of this book I was excited then I read a negative review. I put it in the back burner because I became concerned I would not be able to handle it. I am kind of a wuss when it comes to domestic violence. war violence I'm ok with but child or sexual abuse makes me so upset! I knew when I started reading I would have a negative mind frame.on the other hand I understand Jenny's point about trigger warning and I think Adelaide made the point to. trigger warning are helpful. I will begin this today. knowing fully what I'm getting into thanks to the S&L announcement thread. I'm going to try to focus on the execution.
the other issue here is when is it appropriate to start discussing a books topics. I struggle with this alot I truly don't want to ruin spoil for anyone. I usually finish the months pick about two week in and try not open a thread that may involve spoilers. but I also feel that if I wait till after the supreme's "wrap up" podcast it is to late. I am not complaining just wish I knew the guild lines.
I, for one, am very glad the intro thread brought up the issues it did. Otherwise I would have gone into this book pretty blind and - I can say with certainty - not enjoyed it at all. And that just wouldn't have been fair to the author or the book.
"The negativity will affect how I read it!" Yeah, and so would glowing positive reviews. If you don't want to have anything affect your attitude as you start to read, don't open threads about the book.
To me , it might be just a history of Africa [ The kingdom of Wakanda] without any influences of the europe. If one replace the title, Black Leopard and use the Black Panther then it is ok. another word is an African form of the Grimm stories.
Mod
I'm not sure I can get on board with likening it to Wakanda and Black Panther though.
This is an Africa that used to exist and, probably, to some degree still does in places. It's not a nice place and is inhabited by a lot of horrible people. Even the heroes of the stories (Tracker and Leopard) are not always nice people, but they generally do bad things for the right reason.
I'm 25% of the way and agree it is a hard book to read at times, both for the style and the content, but I can see why it has got good reviews (and why it has bad reviews) and I will see it out.
I do hope it lightens up a bit and has more humorous situations to make it a bit more palatable
Well I am 4% through the book and have decided to stop. I bought it thinking that you can’t go wrong with a fantasy pic in a popular online book club but apparently I was wrong. The writing is beautiful but I got really emotionally exhausted from all the dark brutality. I just want to escape into a well written book not want to escape from it.
Thank you for the list of characters! I'm not very far in, but I am enjoying the story. It is very dark and graphic, but I'm OK with this so far. If it starts going where Night's Master (Tanith Lee) went, I will reconsider.
I've been listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History about the Japanese in WWII and House of Chains again so I can listen to the Ten Very Big Books podcast. These two things are intensely graphic and one is real life.
I can't imagine how horrifying it was for my dad to be a marine on Iwo Jima.
If it gets to be too much I go listen to a comedy podcast then go back to the story.
Anyway, Black Leopard, Red Wolf is graphic but I'm starting to really enjoy it. The narrator is excellent. I got it from Libby so I'm not out anything. I'm an hour and a half into it and its getting really good. Thanks for picking it, Veronica!
Mod
Those who don't like the violence and sexual content will still not enjoy it. That is still part of the story.
I've always felt that the concept of a book club is to be at the mercy of others choices and so it's my responsibility to do research on potential controversial or triggering I tend to avoid most posts until I'm a bit in the book but I think an intro post should just be that introducing the book the author etc, letting that become a source of complaints from those with no experience with the book can be problematic. I'm not adverse to trigger warnings given in a way that doesn't give away plot or spoilers.
Ugh! Well, I didn’t think I could like an S&L pick less than Radiance, but I was wrong. I read to escape all of the ugliness and day-to-day crud that I see and hear all around me. I found nothing about this story to like, remark upon, think on further, or try to remember. I am extremely glad this read is over. Am I glad I read it? Nope. Do I think others should or should not read it? I cannot say, you will have to decide that for yourself. Some people like broccoli and some don’t. I hate this book with the same hate I have for that vile weed. I look forward to the next pick. I can’t wait to forget everything about this one.
I am really enjoying it so far. love the storytelling narration. The style really impresses me. kind of a Graphic folklore, so I'm predisposed to like it. Reminds me of (and excuse the reference) Neil Gaiman's writing style. I don't want to get killed here just that I read The Ocean at the End of the Lane and saw a similarities in style. I had not read anything that has put me off to badly yet. I have read more shocking content. the content is dark and dirty, but it's also a different culture, in a different land, and best i can tell a different time. The storytelling style suspends my belief I'm aware I'm being told a story. So maybe I have not gotten upset yet because I'm a visitor an outside observer it's like the literary equivalent of eating the food graciously offered and not asking what it is. Or maybe it's just because of the "trigger warnings" i got from the opening post told me what to expect and i was able to prepare myself. either way I'm glad I'm reading it!
Can't agree with Lorie more, I like Dion Graham narration. i also got this on my Libby app. the first S&L monthly read I was able to get on that app. Kind of makes me feel bad because I'm listening to it for free. kind of undermines the point of supporting black authors. maybe if I continue to enjoy it I will by a copy from amazon. It will look great on my bookshelf next to Gideon the ninth. I will have to make a section of S&L picks!
Lee wrote: "I am really enjoying it so far. love the storytelling narration. The style really impresses me. kind of a Graphic folklore, so I'm predisposed to like it. Reminds me of (and excuse the reference) N..."Well said. I read a few books like this and yet this one has a new setting (not faux Middle Age Europe or Asia) that I enjoyed. I am however still waiting for the book to surprise me with its dark stuff. We'll see.
Tassie Dave wrote: "I am over 50%. It has got better now that there is a genuine mystery and quest story going. The first third of the book felt like a series of interconnected vignettes of Tracker's life.Those who ..."
I'm also just over half-way and really enjoying the writing and the mystery and adventure of the story so far. It was difficult getting into the story in the first chapters because of the interruptions by the narrator made it a bit disjointed and hard to tell what was happening when. But that it is using African mythology makes it very unusual and alien... I really like that.
Warnings are appropriate but not spoilers and I agree people should be cautious not to ruin a book in the comments before the book month. Maybe we can limit all new topics on the book and negative comments before the month kicks off? May be logistically difficult...All that being said, I’m not sure I would’ve read a warning anyway lol.
Personally, I lemmed this book by the end of Ch 2. I tried to stick with it after the shock of the first two pages, but I just couldn’t stomach the descriptive pedafile rape of both boys and girls, incest and other unpleasantness etc.
While I enjoyed the African mythological story form-factor, I can honestly say I can’t stand this book. Like the author says “some truth should never be spoken”
I have read and am open to reading books that are dark, but this book - ugh I can’t even.
"Maybe we can limit all new topics on the book and negative comments before the month kicks off?"Let's limit positive comments too, then. We're readers, not the cheerleading squad. No argument on the spoilers point but that's not what folks were doing.
I don't think the warnings had any negative impact on my reading. The opposite, possibly. I started reading expecting to find off-putting, gratuitous sex and violence, and found that while the writing is certainly grim and unpleasant in places, it builds on the dark world the protagonist inhabits, and I have not found it off-putting as I feared I might. Had people raved about the story, described it as a fun adventure, perhaps, this book might have come as an unpleasant shock.As someone who is fairly spoiler averse, I have learned to carefully scan for information that might be spoilery when reading through threads. Occasionally, I read things I would rather not have known, but that is on me and my choice of the threads I read. This group is generally good at being careful of big, specific spoilers. If you can't openly discuss the tone and overall impact of a book without spoiler tags, a discussion just becomes unwieldy. It's useful information to covey, especially at kick off when folk are deciding if the book is worth their hard earned cash.
I try to avoid reading even the pick intro post until after I've read the book. I want to experience a book as spoiler-free as possible & I'm not personally in need of trigger warnings. The shock is part of the thrill for me even if it makes me uncomfortable. Lee - I was also reminded of Neil Gaiman's work if not his writing style.
American Gods & Anansi Boys specifically. I have previously raved about the American Gods: The Tenth Anniversary Edition (A Full Cast Production) that I bought from Audible.
Neil Gaiman is quickly becoming a favorite author of mine. I have read three of his book so far and have been amazed each time. have to check out American gods. I'm trying not go through his stuff to quickly. want to savor them. I have done that in the past with Agatha Christie and Louis L'Amour.
^ For the love of God, read Sandman. Then get the companion volume and read it again, so you get all the references.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
American Gods (other topics)Anansi Boys (other topics)
The Ocean at the End of the Lane (other topics)
House of Chains (other topics)
Trainspotting (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Irvine Welsh (other topics)William S. Burroughs (other topics)
Ralph Ellison (other topics)
Ben Okri (other topics)
I don't think warning people off due to content is the same as spoilers. I personally found the content in this book to be of such significant levels of violence and sexual content and sexual violence that I would feel irresponsible not to at least give readers a fair warning. Like walking through a forest, holding back a branch that I'm about to let go of, but not warning the person directly behind me of what is going to whack them in the face.
Also Rob told us:
"Let us know what you think about the pick."
So that is our normal practice. I'd say if you are a person who doesn't like a book spoiled, like not at all, not even content warnings, then... wait to read a thread until you've read the book! Just like you'd wait to listen to a podcast discussion or author interview.
The other thing I wish I'd said is you might want to develop some kind of way to keep track of the characters because there are a lot of them!