Victorians! discussion

Nicholas’s quiet evening with the Browdies was disturbed again – this time with a scuffle at the very inn they are dining. Nicholas, ever the gallant and John Browdie enter the scene to see a young man threatening his already punished victim. Nicholas inquires from him what happened and the reasons for his action. But another scuffle takes place as some of the bystanders thought it fit to punish the young on his unfortunate victim’s behalf. In this, he is assisted by Nicholas and John. After everything settles the young man proffers his card as an introduction. It turns out that the young man is Frank Cheeryble, the nephew of the Cheeryble brothers. Nicholas suddenly recognizes the victim as a clerk from the Registry office. The reason behind this fight is the clerk’s vulgar remarks of a young lady of Frank’s acquaintance. A greater understanding dawns on Nicholas. He fancies that the particular young lady is the girl in his dreams, the one who he secretly loves. This invokes some jealous feelings on Nicholas towards Frank Cheeryble.

Charles and Frank Cheeryble visit Nickleby’s and there meet Nicholas’s mother and sister. Frank seems struck by Kate’s loveliness. I wonder whether we will have any development in that quarter.

Ralph is accosted by a stranger, who turns out to be a past employee. The stranger seems to have a piece of secret knowledge about something related to Ralph. He proposes a bargain in which he will impart this knowledge to Ralph on some monetary return. Ralph sternly declines this proposal and walks away.

We are again taken to the Mantalini household where a slight drama on the part of Mr. Mantalini takes place. Mr. Mantalini feigns an attempt at suicide which doesn’t work well this time, for Mrs. Mantalini is quite determined this time to have no more dealings with him. Miss knag is to be congratulated for this fall between the spouses. Miss Knag being assured that no development for the establishment could be achieved while Mr. Mantalini’s extravagance persisted, has done some detective work to find about other liaisons of his and has imparted this knowledge to the madam opening her eyes to his true self. At least, Miss knag has done some service to poor Mrs. Mantalini.

The persecution of Smike is yet not at an end. Taking Mr. Snawley too into the partnership, Ralph and Squeers concoct a plan to the reclaim Smike. The threesome dared to enter Nickleby household for that purpose. They find the Nicklebys in the company of the Browdies. Explanations for the intrusion were given, and Mr. Snawley’s role is explained. He is to play Smike’s long lost father. Some documents were produced of which authenticity Nicholas couldn’t repudiate. At the same time, he is suspicious. Smike refuses to go and begs Nicholas to let him stay. Mr. Squeers becoming impatient attempts to forcefully carry Smike whereby a scuffle takes place. Nicholas and John successfully manage to affect the departure of the three scoundrels without Smike.

Nicholas finally learns about his love interest from Charles Cheeryble. The young lady is Madeleine Bray, the daughter of a lady whom Charles had loved in his youth. Madeleine’s story is not a happy one. His tyrannical and extravagant father has made them destitute and sent her mother to an early grave with a broken heart. Presently their abode is the debtor’s prison (Rules of the King’s Bench). Mr. Bray shows resentment towards the monetary help of Charles Cheeryble, but all the same, has no problem with living by it. Since Madeleine is not accepting more than necessary from Charles, he devises a plan in which they buy her paintings at a higher price. Nicholas is their representative. On his first commission on behalf of Mr. Charles, Nicholas pays his first visit to her. Although Nicholas is careful with his personal feelings towards her, seeing her makes him forget himself for a moment and pledges a lifetime devotion to her service.

Meanwhile, Ralph meets another old acquaintance – Mr. Arthur Gride, a money lender like him. It seems that this old man and Ralph are the creditors who have placed Mr. Bray in the Rules. Mr. Gride has his own design on Madeleine. He wishes to marry her, and he seeks Ralph’s help to work out his design. There seems to be some money involved that would be Madeleine’s, of which the Brays have no idea. Mr. Gride seems to know of it and seeks to profit from his marriage to Madeleine. Ralph agrees to help on his own terms and the two scoundrels meet Mr. Bray and convey their intention. In return for Madeleine’s hand, Mr. Gride proposes a life of comfort for Mr. Bray. Mr. Bray for his part after much pretense and protest hints at his agreement. Poor Madeleine is to be the victim of her father’s tyranny. This whole scheme is listened to by Mr. Noggs by accident. I’m guessing that it will reach Nicholas’s ears somehow. It seems that a new situation is building for another fight between Ralph and Nicholas.

Nicholas quite accidentally sees a poster on a theater house regarding the final appearance of his former employer, Mr. Crummels. He meets them and joins them in their farewell dinner. The Crummelses are migrating to America, and thus Dickens puts an end to their story.

What did you think of this segment?

There is a lot in this section!

Once again we see a common Dickens character-the selfless and angelic child devoting themselves to an undeserving parent, who uses them for what they can get from them-an inversion of the idea of parents who sacrifice for their children. I suspect this has much to do with Dickens own sacrifices for his parents, but it always makes me uncomfortable to see such innocence and selflessness in a child saddled with an grasping and ungrateful parent, in this case a father who will sell his daughter into marriage with a frail old money-lender for the chance to have his own life back.

I expect Frank Cheeryble will fall in love with Kate, to prevent his being a rival for the affections of Madeline Bray!

Frances wrote: "Once again we see a common Dickens character-the selfless and angelic child devoting themselves to an undeserving parent, who uses them for what they can get from them-an inversion of the idea of parents who sacrifice for their children..."

This was a very distressing part of the segment. I feel so much for beautiful Madeleine. I hope somehow the plan will be thwarted and she'll be free.

I expect Frank Cheeryble will fall in love with Kate, to prevent his being a rival for the affections of Madeline Bray!...

Oh yes, that will probably be so. Madeleine will be the sole love interest of Nicholas, but will she be free for him is the question.

Ralph’s resorting to the law and producing the dubious father of Smike came as a surprise but well done to Nicholas for refusing to surrender his friend, asserting what was morally right if legally he was on a shaky footing.
Madeline Bray was more intriguing than I expected once it was revealed who Nicholas’ mysterious love interest was. His determination to put his own self-interests to one side in order to serve her in her desperate plight contrasts sharply with the selfish connivances of Madeline’s father, Ralph and Arthur Gride. Nogg’s knowledge must surely help Nicholas at some point in the future to thwart this gang from exploiting yet another helpless young woman. The mysterious stranger cold shouldered by Ralph will no doubt return but what is his secret and could it be anything to do with Ralph ruining Noggs?
I agree that Frank and Kate seem destined for each other judging by the ‘colouring’ that went on at their meeting even though very little was said. Frank’s robust denial of any love interest abroad seemed to be largely for Kate’s benefit.
After a short period of ascendency, Nicholas now has major problems to overcome and it will probably get worse before it gets better.

Here we have another dinner party - and, it is also a pleasant one, contrasting with the dinners held by Ralph and the pretentious residents at Nicholas's former lodgings (I'm sorry, I've forgotten their name and shall look it up later). Nicholas and the Browdies are comfortable companions but interrupted by Ralph and Smikes' father - or is he?

The interlude with the theatre group is evidence of another pleasant social grouping that depends on personalities rather than money, or the illusions of money. We are being given comparisons in a less obvious way with these incidents. Much more satisfying, in my view - even in prose (rather than theatre or film) an audience prefers to be shown rather than told (and told, and told as is likely to happen in Dickens).

I wondered why Smike wasn't encouraged to escape with the theatre group. He had done well there, they were off to America where it is unlikely he would be pursued by his 'father' or Squeers, and he would have some independence. It is clear that he has feelings for Kate, and this would help him escape this tie, and the one to Nicholas. But it seems he is to remain a supplicant for their affections, rather than an independent person. Perhaps it is too late for him and Nicholas understands this? Or Nicholas just doesn't think!

Madeleine Bray and her relationship with her father comes at a time when Mrs Nickleby is just being silly, instead of using her children to increase her comfort or social presence. Here we have a man fulfilling the selfish parental role, which is interesting. He also is prepared to 'sell her to the highest bidder' for his own comfort. Like Mrs Nickleby, he creates an illusion for himself that it is on his daughter's behalf that he makes his decisions.

Madeleine's understanding of her position is very naïve in comparison with Kate's , I thought. The latter just deals with her mother's whimsy, accepting her foolish observations and maintaining a discreet silence during almost impossible conversations. I see Mrs Nickleby now being depicted as a woman who just says the first thing that comes into her head, a characteristic she has always had , but which is now becoming paramount. She is financially and domestically secure, and although mistaken, secure in her belief that she can still be seen as a romantic figure. Oh dear, what will she do when Frank shows his preference for Kate?

We are told that the theatre group will appear no more, so know that part of the story is over. However, the intrigue around Smikes' father; the Madeleine and her father drama; and the possible romances keep up our interest.

Trev wrote: "The mysterious stranger cold shouldered by Ralph will no doubt return but what is his secret and could it be anything to do with Ralph ruining Noggs?..."

I think that secret is one that may compromise Ralph in some way - a danger to him than to Mr. Noggs.

Robin wrote: "I wondered why Smike wasn't encouraged to escape with the theatre group. He had done well there, they were off to America where it is unlikely he would be pursued by his 'father' or Squeers, and he would have some independence. It is clear that he has feelings for Kate, and this would help him escape this tie, and the one to Nicholas. But it seems he is to remain a supplicant for their affections, rather than an independent person...."

I think it would be unlikely that Smike would ever want to part from Nicholas. He is sort of pledged his life for him. I agree with you that Smike seems to have feelings for Kate - that is why he was upset after the visit of the Cheerybles. But I think nothing will induce him to part from the Nickelbys.

I enjoyed your character comparisons, Robin. Both Mrs. Nickleby and Mr. Bray are selfish parents. They justify their selfish actions under the illusion that they are doing the best for their child when in fact it is them and their comfort is what they are worried about.

Madeleine doesn't seem as strong as Kate. I wonder how she'll rise to the situation. From what I so far understand of her, I believe she'll submit to her father's wish. How Nicholas will intervene is something interesting to look forward to.

Trev wrote: "His determination to put his own self-interests to one side in order to serve her in her desperate plight contrasts sharply with the selfish connivances of Madeline’s father, Ralph and Arthur Gride..."

Nicholas does seem to love and care for Madeleine deeply. I really like this side of his character. His love for both Madeleine and his sister is deeply touching. Kate is and Madeliene will be lucky to have such a brother/champion in Nicholas.

Piyangie wrote: "I enjoyed your character comparisons, Robin. Both Mrs. Nickleby and Mr. Bray are selfish parents. They justify their selfish actions under the illusion that they are doing the best for their child ..."

I agree that Madeline does not seem as strong as Kate. The latter is a really interesting character in that she seems so calm in dealing with her mother's foibles. And, I think that is how she perceives her mother's behaviour. Where we are really upset by Mrs Nickleby , almost angry at times it seems from our posts, Kate just deals with it. She really is a character who would be interesting to write about in a literary essay. Its quite interesting to reflect upon the different women in this novel, the nasty Mrs and Miss Squeers; the selfish and foolish Mrs Nickleby; the various wives in the secondary couple (theatre/lodging house etc) the young heroines (as I suspect they will be) etc. What might we have made of a novel called Kate Nickleby, for example. There is no need to spend time on answering this speculation. That is all that it is!

Again, this section was chock full of events!!
Another “coincidence” as Nicholas saves Frank Cheeryble. I did miss that the woman in question was Madeleine however.

I do wonder as well, the meeting with the Cheeryble’s visit…it seems Dickens does not like to let things lie, so perhaps we’ll see more of Frank/Kate??? Frank seems honorable as much as we know him. I do like Frances take on it as well…so that he is not a rival!

Ralph’s past employee was a curious development, especially that he then ran into Noggs. I sense that Ralph may be brought down in some ways. Trev’s comment was intriguing…if it has something to do with Noggs demise? There is so much more to Noggs story that we haven’t been told yet.

What a twist with Smike. So, do we think that Snawley was jut a pawn? None of it is true that he is the father? At any rate, it was all too over the top and horrible. Ralph and Squeers will not stop in their persecution of that poor boy. John has certainly changed my opinion of him since we met him back in the Dotheboy’s days! Piyangie – I agree with you that I don’t think Smike will ever leave Nicholas, nor do I think that Nicholas or Kate for that matter would want to part with Smike. I think they feel very protective of him.

Madeleine is almost as bad off as Smike was. What a deplorable situation. Shame on the mother for endearing the daughter to that horrible beast! At least we know his health is so bad, that his time is not long. That is one saving grace. But then another cog in the wheel in the form of Mr. Gride. Which made me think of another of Dicken’s “name games” GREED! With that, the Mr. Bray makes me thing of a donkey! I can’t believe Ralph, he is so deducing to know his subjects so well to concoct the horrible scheme. We can only be thankful that Noggs was there. Noggs is like Mighty Mouse…Here he comes to save the day!!! I wonder if the Cheerybl’s will get involved? Madeleine seems to respect them and will maybe take their opinion seriously?

What a nice ending for Nicholas to see The Crummelses again. I thought that was a nice section. I appreciated how warmly they thought of Nicholas and with that…when Nicholas went to Cheerybl about Ralph, and Ralph has already been there, but Cheerybl goes on to say they didn’t believe a word of Ralph and had such praise for Nicholas. Nicholas has really made a name for himself of being of outstanding character.

Brenda wrote: "Again, this section was chock full of events!!
Another “coincidence” as Nicholas saves Frank Cheeryble. I did miss that the woman in question was Madeleine however.

I do wonder as well, the meet..."

You and Trev both seem to think that the secret in the hands of the stranger is something that is connected with Noggs. I don't know why but I think it is a secret of Ralph unconnected with any other. We know absolutely nothing of the past of Ralph, and if we do not get any knowledge in that quarter before the end of the book it would not be complete. :)

I personally think that the fight to free (if ever he can) Madeleine from the treachery will be Nicholas's fight alone. I'm quite sure Dickens will want it that way whether Nicholas succeeds or not in that endeavour. That will be yet another adventure of Nicholas and to show his heroism.

Piyangie wrote: "Brenda wrote: "Again, this section was chock full of events!!
Another “coincidence” as Nicholas saves Frank Cheeryble. I did miss that the woman in question was Madeleine however.

I do wonder as..."

Your speculation about this being Ralph's story is highly possible, in my view. However, we are being constantly fed little tidbits about Noggs, and I hope that these come to fruition with his regaining his status in a way that undermines Ralph.

Yes, Nicholas is the hero, so freeing Madeleine is his responsibility. However, I wonder how he will persuade her that her father must be denied his opportunity to be free of his debts. Unless Nicholas's circumstances change dramatically he is in no position to effect a solution to Mr Bray's problem.

Robin wrote: "Yes, Nicholas is the hero, so freeing Madeleine is his responsibility. However, I wonder how he will persuade her that her father must be denied his opportunity to be free of his debts. Unless Nicholas's circumstances change dramatically he is in no position to effect a solution to Mr Bray's problem....."

You have a point there, Robin. It may be where the Cheeryble brothers will have to step in. Nicholas most probably will take the initiative with the discreet backing of the brothers. But this is all speculation and I hope the next segment will solve the issue. I'm becoming quite impatient to know how the matter will end, and I so want the plan of Ralph and Gride to be thwarted.

Brenda wrote: But then another cog in the wheel in the form of Mr. Gride. Which made me think of another of Dicken’s “name games” GREED! With that, the Mr. Bray makes me thing of a donkey! ..."

That is an interesting comparison, Brenda. I had a good laugh at the latter.

Part of my meaning is that I think Noggs just happens to be upon the stranger and to hear the interaction between Ralph and Gride...I think the stranger is related to Ralph only, I just think Noggs is Mighty Mouse as he always seems to be in the right place, or understands a situation correctly to make the best use of it. I doubt he'd be the one to actually save Madeleine, if anything I would think the Cheerybls might need to get involved. They have the security and the means more than others to go head to head with Ralph if necessary, and more persuasion with Madeleine, as Robin indicated.

I think Trev could have a good point, as Dickens likes to make tidy capsules of his stories, so perhaps the strangers story will encompass more than just Ralph? After all, Madeleine is now more than just Cheerybl, that circle has come round now with Ralph and Gride. There has to be more to Noggs story, and Ralph seems to have some history with the stranger, and why is he the stranger? Why haven't we been told his name? Obviously Ralph thinks he's nothing, but from the readers viewpoint he seems to be a big elephant in the room. And, who was Noggs? How did he come to be where he is now? Maybe the stranger is only tied to Ralph, initially, but maybe with Noggs help now they can bring Ralph down?

I agree with you Robin, and Piyangie I think we as the readers deserve a big reveal of both Ralph and Noggs. What are you hoping to learn of Ralph? Do you think Dickens will give us more than what we've gotten, of his jealousy of his brother and it leading him to more unsavory ways of amassing his fortune?

I was just thinking of Ralph more....and wondering if he might have some Scrooge sort of past? Also, isn't there more to his relationship with Squeers? I thought I recalled Ralph knew him previously? And also, I wonder about the first instance we heard of a boy that died at Dotheboys...was that just to give the reader more insight on the horrible conditions or is that another full circle? I always wondered if that involved Ralph... ?????

These have been such great discussions! Thank you Piyangie for a great lead on this book! :))

Brenda wrote: "I was just thinking of Ralph more....and wondering if he might have some Scrooge sort of past? Also, isn't there more to his relationship with Squeers? I thought I recalled Ralph knew him previousl..."

You echo my thoughts there, Brenda. I'm quite sure there is a past of his which mixes him with Squeers. What it is is a mystery. The boy who died I fear has some connection to Ralph. Could it be that he was a step-father like Snawley?

These have been such great discussions! Thank you Piyangie for a great lead on this book! :))

You are welcome! I'm happy that enjoyed the discussion.