The Sword and Laser discussion

I’m not averse to a story with dark elements and violence. But I’m 10% of the way in and I feel like I have no idea at all what’s going on. Like literally none. I’m not a stupid person, but this book is making me feel stupid. I wish I could say there was some violence that had upset me because that would mean there had been a plot point that I understood and that stuck in my memory.

I’ve seen Tassie Dave say in another thread that the early parts of the book seem like vignettes and the main plot kick off a bit later. Would it be possible to skip a bit and pick up later? Or would I be missing too much?

Not wanting to pile on more negativity with this book. I really want to read and enjoy it. But at the moment it’s just making my head hurt, quite literally.

It’s not you. The book is written like a fever dream an opium addict has while fighting off malaria.

The first part is Tracker telling stories to his jailers. It sets up the world and how he meets some of his companions. Then he tells the story about going to find the missing boy. Its like stories with stories. Like he tells the jailers a story about a time he told someone else a story. I get confused sometimes too, but overall I find the book compelling and lyrical (graphic and violent, none the less).

"On the sentence level, James likes to withhold proper nouns until the last possible moment and then waits to reveal them just a little bit longer than you’d think he should be able to get away with. That means his sentences are generally carried by verbs, and you don’t know who is doing what or why for long stretches at a time: You just get an impression of anonymous limbs tangled together in sex or battle for some reason that is not immediately clear."

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/2/6/...

There's chapter summaries here starting like a year ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/darkstartril/

Maybe instead of the black Game of Thrones, this is the black The Shadow of the Torturer, with an unreliable narrator and requiring rereads to get the full gist?

the reddit reread threads: A++++ thank you!

I am 20% in and the story has become easier to follow. At least you have to pass the first 60 pages or so then you'd the groove of it.

It's more like an odd couple, buddy cop story as of now. Picking up some Black Company vibes but in a richer setting.

Speaking of rich setting the book also reminded me of The Devourers which I loved a lot. I want to know which African myths exactly the author put in the story.

I'd say stick with it. It is confusing early on and difficult to follow, but you need the information in those early chapters, as they play a part in understanding the relationships between characters.

There is a story that starts to take shape and once you're in it, it will last to the end of the book (I'm at 92%)

There was just too much crude language. I am not a prude but I just got tired of it. I got about 25 percent in and gave up. I think the author looked up penis and vagina in a thesaurus and just went for it. I just wasn't enjoying it. This is the first in a long time for me of not finishing a book. I was sad but started a different book and was happy again.

I lemmed this book by the end of Ch 2. I tried to stick with it after the shock of the first two pages, but I just couldn’t stomach the descriptive pedafile rape of both boys and girls, incest, etc.

Just not willing to give it more of my time. While I enjoyed the African mythological story form-factor, I can honestly say I can’t stand this book. Frankly, It doesn’t matter to me if this has some sort of cultural significance. Like the author says “some truth should never be spoken”

I have read and am open to reading books that are dark, but this book - ugh I can’t even.

Tim wrote: "I’m not averse to a story with dark elements and violence. But I’m 10% of the way in and I feel like I have no idea at all what’s going on. Like literally none. I’m not a stupid person, but this bo..."

I didn't find it really gelled until the last third, and by then I was pretty exhausted. I understand the second novel to tell the same story from a different perspective but I don't think I need that!

Oh! who's perspective?

I think all the pieces finally start coming together in the last third where you start to see how how this is how this character's environment and life and tragedies have shaped who he becomes. it's definitely a brutal picture about a brutal world

Glad I read this thread, I’m 10% in and was all set to lem this but have decided to give it a bit longer. The style is hard to get into the flow of, with more time I may have a better grasp of it. It is nice to try different styles of writing, even if this ends up as one and done series for me.

Poonam wrote: "Oh! who's perspective?

I think all the pieces finally start coming together in the last third where you start to see how how this is how this character's environment and life and tragedies have sh..."

Well it’s tentatively titled Moon Witch, Night Devil if that helps... I know many are hoping for the witch's narrative.

Last night I just looked at the series GR page, and boy it was SPOILERY. Do not, I repeat, do not open the page.

I finished earlier today and can say that the harsh language continues throughout. It is probably appropriate for the main character, but still I'd hope a sequel would tone that down... yet my impression is that the Moon Witch's language and attitude is worse or equal. Maybe Tracker really sets her off?

Joyce wrote: "There was just too much crude language. I am not a prude but I just got tired of it... "

I think there was an early description of a piece of scenery that reminded Tracker of a part of a young girl's anatomy and I just rolled my eyes. It was too forced. When describing sex and violence, that sort of description makes sense - sex and violence are often couched way too euphemistically to avoid using certain language, and that's not great either. But to bring that into descriptions of a tree or something doesn't make sense to me.

not gonna lie, this has been a very challenging read for me. The language is so course and It seems that the author is going out of his way to shock the reader. there are passages so ridiculously like the giant talking about the size of his member that I wonder about the maturity level of the author.

This was a tough one on audio as well.
Language & subject matter didn't bother me too much, but I was uncomfortable often & very glad to be listening with headphones or alone in my car.

That poor giant (I don't know how to spell his name). He was my favorite character for sure.

Sad-Ogo.

Literally, because he was a sad Ogo.

I don't know if this is helpful to anyone in this thread, as I am over a hundred pages into story and have not yet felt any confusion, but the audio book is wonderfully read and gives a real depth to the characters so maybe if you are struggling, you could give that a go?

I started reading first, then grabbed the audio version to give me more times when I can read it, and I'm more or less alternating chapters for reading and listening. A fun thing that is likely just me is that the voice of the audio perfectly matches the one I heard in my head while reading. I listened to the sample after reading the first chapter and was amazed how close the match was.

uncomfortable is probably the best word for it. sad ogo was my favorite character to does he get his own POV book probably not. the character have amazing depth. I like the "fellowship" to used a phase coined in another thread. lot to like here. it's just Tracker makes me uncomfortable. I thought I would get use to the courseness but instead it has worn me down. I'm doing audio and find Dion Graham narration good

I'm 60 percent in. I'm going to finish it but this read is a challenge for me.

Lee wrote: " the character have amazing depth..."

I felt like the characters had an amazing depth of suffering, but this isn't always the same as having amazing depth. Mossi is about the only character in the whole thing that seems capable of envisioning happiness or contentment - (view spoiler)[ and for his temerity in doing so he is obviously marked for death, and like that group of children is sacrificed just to get Tracker even more desperate (hide spoiler)]. If a character can only be miserable, I wouldn't say they have depth.

Lee wrote: "uncomfortable is probably the best word for it. sad ogo was my favorite character to does he get his own POV book probably not. the character have amazing depth. I like the "fellowship" to used a p..."

I was thinking about Sadogo & realized he's a bit like Fezzik in The Princess Bride (The movie anyway - I don't remember if the book was different). I'd be interested to know what things influenced Marlon James when writing BLRW. I'll definitely watch the movie. I can easily imagine Michael B. Jordan as Tracker.

I definitely see it. Fezzik is a great. Andre the Giant is a legend! love The princess bride never read the book don't think it will hold up to the movie. actors did so well.

we have an apprentice about 20 or 21 years old at work who says he has never seen princess bride or Monty Python's holy grail we reference them alot at work. we asked him what he was doing with his life and he said. "he has no time for movies, TV, sports, politics, or books. just video games! I don't even think he's interested in girls/boys. I worry about the next generation ; )

I will say he's a great problem solver. says that comes from the video games.

This book left me angry, confused and sad. Maybe that was the point. But it's definitely not to my taste.

And it was as relentless. Every time it looked like things were wrapping up Tracker stumbled into some fresh hell and dragged me along. Worse than a slasher movie.

I was tempted to just Lem the damn thing, but some weird combination of stubbornness, curiosity and White guilt kept me going. I've finished worse than this, dammit!

As Tom said, the performance of the audiobook was very good, but I had a tough time with the accent.

Early on I was wondering why the floor of a room was covered with rocks. I looked at the text and the word was rugs. At that point I switched to reading from a Kindle.

Maybe we can have some lighter fare for August?

I am at odds with this book personally. Parts of it has incredible, stunning visuals and really detailed, thorough, beautiful prose.
However, despite it including and addressing many disturbing topics, I think the story within a story within a story tool is really overused. I feel so far there are page fillers and it could be cut down whilst still being as impactive, to both the story and the world.

Gary wrote: "Maybe we can have some lighter fare for August? "

Like The Road, maybe.

I was thinking even lighter, like maybe Wool

Or we could watch a light anime movie, like Grave of the Fireflies.

V&T, maybe you could do a hopepunk novel, like The Sol Majestic. It's in the Hugo packet (under best editor nominee, Diana M. Pho) and about food and space, what's not to love?

(view spoiler)[(yes, yes, it lost the poll in the other group, but it looks fun!) and ... well.... (view spoiler)[my birthday is in August (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

John (Taloni) wrote: "I was thinking even lighter, like maybe Wool"

We've already read that :-)

https://swordandlaser.fandom.com/wiki...

I think Tom will choose something a bit lighter.

John (Taloni) wrote: "I was thinking even lighter, like maybe Wool"

Oooh I love Wool so much; I've been thinking about a reread.

I think skipping was a good choice for me :)

I got 68 pages in and lemed it then read 4 Artemis Fowl books in a row to clean it out of my mind

Lee wrote: "love The princess bride never read the book don't think it will hold up to the movie. actors did so well."

I can not recommend strongly enough that you drop everything and go get this book now. The movie is great, but reading the book will only deepen your appreciation for it. I did not read the book until many years after first seeing the movie, it definitely holds up.

Aaron wrote: "Lee wrote: "love The princess bride never read the book don't think it will hold up to the movie. actors did so well."

I can not recommend strongly enough that you drop everything and go get this ..."

well that sounds like the excuse i need to LEM BLRW at 85% finished. and if that is not enough Audible just released Neil Gaiman's The Sandman which i immediately bought as soon as i saw it on John Taloni recommendation.

I'm not sure how The Sandman would work in audio form :-? It is such an imaginative work that it's hard for me to imagine it without the visuals of the fabulous artwork.

The Graphic Novel is one of my all time favourites. It is a masterpiece.

yeah I know John meant the comic book series. but I'm not much of a comic book guy. I hoping audible does it justice. has a star studded cast. I'm starting it today. finish it before I start Elysium in August.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I'm not sure how The Sandman would work in audio form :-? It is such an imaginative work that it's hard for me to imagine it without the visuals of the fabulous artwork.

The Graphic Novel is one o..."

I have the same thought - voice actors can do a lot, but how can they represent the parts that don't have words attached?

They can't. An audible version of a graphic novel is a very weird idea to me.

Lee - if you have an iPad and access to Hoopla via your library, the entire Sandman series is up there.

Rick wrote: "if you have an iPad and access to Hoopla via your library, the entire Sandman series is up there."

Just added the series to my favorites over there so I can find it later at my leisure. My ancient Kindle Fire has basically become my dedicated graphic novel reader.

Aaron wrote: "Just added the series to my favorites over there so I can find it later at my leisure. My ancient Kindle Fire has basically become my dedicated graphic novel reader. .."

Yeah, the Fire would be great for that. The original run of Lucifer is there also and it's also amazing.

That's a full cast audiodrama that includes Gaiman himself.

I found this book both intentionally and unintentionally confusing. It is clear that we have an unreliable narrator, often telling stories in stories and lying or hiding details. It also had long sections of dialog where I couldn't distinguish which characters were speaking. I literally had to go back to the beginning of the conversation and count. I'm OK with former, not happy with the latter.

I think the book was requiring me to give the reading more attention than I was willing to give it. I'm sure a lot of this book was lost on me as a result. I also think some characters were more distinct in my mind than others. I could usually tell Sadogo, Sogolon or Mossi speaking, but get me in the middle of a discussion between Tracker and Leopard, forget it.

It's weird, I've been watching horror movies during isolation, but have been wanting more lighter fare for reading. It was a chore getting through this book, but mostly because it didn't match my mood.

Rick wrote: "They can't. An audible version of a graphic novel is a very weird idea to me.

Lee - if you have an iPad and access to Hoopla via your library, the entire Sandman series is up there."

I also bought (Used a credit) on Sandman. I want to read the comics for the 1st time along with the audio. So glad it's on Hoopla! Waiting for my lady to buy a new tablet/iPad. She's borrowing mine because hers died.

Sandman is great. I'm not sure it will work as an Audible book, but if anyone can do it, it's Neil Gaiman.

I've read some stellar comics along the way. The Surtur Saga on Thor, by Walt Simonson. Skurge holding the bridge at Gjallerbru is one of the best moments in comics, a true redemptive arc. Steve Ditko's run on Dr. Strange. Kirby's early Fantastic Fours, and the first few issues of the Eternals. All of them require an understanding of comics storytelling conventions to appreciate.

Sandman is the one I can share with the world. It's a comic, but much more than that. Sandman is mythology, psychology, history, literature. Gaiman's take on A Midsummer Night's Dream is stunning, and the thread goes from issue 19 to the final panels of #75.

There is some light horror along the way. I can see why Gaiman liked Black Leopard, Red Wolf, and why he is okay with the horror elements. Gaiman kept it "PG" for Sandman but has been substantially more graphic elsewhere.

Sandman is likely to be great in any form. Will be interesting to see the reaction to the audio book.

not sure if this is the place for this discussion. but y'all will have to forgive me I'm still learning the S&L threads.

I really wanted to thank you John for the suggestion. A bit of a impulse buy from me but after you suggested the Sandman I saw a link on Goodreads only a day after my 2 monthly credits came in.

I like audio dramas and really enjoyed this one. format was a little wonky. hard to tell when one story ended and the next began. very descriptive my imagination kept picturing everything in comic book print still don't think my mind did the comic justice. There was one part in the diner with Dr. D I found fitted In BLRW to much for me. can't imagine that in a comic book. but other than that I really liked the "issues" for lack of better words. My favorite was a midsummer night dream which was at the end if the audio drama. that was truly brilliant writing.

oh yeah and death incarnation in this is my favorite I have come across so I agree with those who said that during the Hogfather read.

finally finished. powered through and I was rewarded with a rare vision of comprehension. Tracker gives a brief synopsis of events and when they happened saying but that's another story the neat thing was those were stories he had already told. stories within stories. I considered that my payoff. But then Tracker ruins it by telling me maybe none of this happened or didn't happened like that at all. what a tease!