Victorians! discussion

We come to the final segment of the novel.

After Smike’s death and burial, Nicholas returns home. Surprises are awaiting him. Kate has rejected the proposal of Frank. After learning Nicholas’s views on her and Frank, Kate has refused to accept Frank’s offer of marriage with much pain, explaining the reasons as best as she could. Nicholas comes to the same resolution regarding Madeline despite his deep feelings for her. He confesses his feelings to Mr. Charles Cheeryble and requests him to remove Madeline from their home. Mr. Charles Cheeryble also updates Nicholas on all the events that had taken place in his absence – the conspiracy against Madeline’s inheritance and the discovery of the deed by Frank and Newman, Mr. Squeers’s arrest, and Smike’s parentage.

Meanwhile, Ralph in his mixed feelings of anger, hatred, fear, and remorse commits suicide. He dies without a will thus his vast wealth falls on to Nicholas and Kate by inheritance. But they decline any claim for the ill-gotten money leaving them to the public treasury.

This was a surprising ending for me. I was hoping there will be some reconciliation between Ralph and Nicholas.

The Cheeryble brothers straiten the matters between the young lovers, and finally, Kate, Frank, Nicholas, and Madeline find their own happy endings. Miss Creevy too has her happy ending with Tim Linkinwater to the utmost jealousy of Mrs. Nickleby.

We also learn the imprisonment of Mr. Squeers and the closure of the Dothboys Hall. And we have a glimpse of Mr. Mantalini in much-reduced circumstance. We are told that Gride has been murdered during a robbery of his house, and Sir Mulberry having returned to England falls into debtor’s prison and dies there. The Browides are thriving and happy. Newman Noggs has a comfortable home near Nicholas and Nicholas finally becomes a partner in the firm.

And that concludes the adventures of Nicholas Nickleby. What did you all think of this final segment? Were you satisfied or were you disappointed?

Also please do share your overall thoughts on the book.

I also like to make this an opportunity to thank you all who joined me with the reading and sharing your thoughts and views here. It was such a pleasure to have interacted with you all. I enjoyed myself a lot and sincerely hope you all enjoyed the discussion as well.

Thank you Piyangie for leading this discussion-it was a great discussion and really added to my enjoyment of this adventure!

I was also surprised by Uncle Ralph's suicide, however he was perhaps too egregious a character to allow him a happily ever after with a loving family.

I was sorry we didn't get more background on Newman Noggs-we know he was a gentleman and it would have been interesting to have heard his full tale, particularly as I assume he was beholden to Ralph Nickleby for some reason.

While the breaking up of Dotheboys Hall was a relief, what a sad touch about the small boys left wandering around the neighbourhood unclaimed! I would have assumed that the Browdies and perhaps even Nicholas and Kate might have informally adopted a few of them just for a complete Dickensian conclusion.

I had also hoped Mrs Nickleby might find a husband, but given that she ruined her first one perhaps that wouldn't have been such a good ending.

I don't remember so many tragic endings for so many characters in a Dickens novel, but it's been a while since I've read one so I may have forgotten.

Thanks again Piyangie and other participants for an enjoyable read and discussion.

Frances wrote: "Thank you Piyangie for leading this discussion-it was a great discussion and really added to my enjoyment of this adventure!

I was also surprised by Uncle Ralph's suicide, however he was perhaps t..."

You are welcome, Frances! I'm so pleased that you enjoyed the discussion.

I'm sorry too that we didn't learn much of Noggs's past though we are happy for his present condition. I was so looking forward to knowing more about his past life. I thought he had some connection to Nicholas Nickelby the senior.

What a finale!
I found the scene between Mr. Linkinwater and Miss La Creevy really touching, a beautiful declaration of elderly love: "Let's be a comfortable couple, and take care of each other! And if we should get deaf, or lame, or blind, or bed-ridden, how glad we shall be that we have somebody we are fond of, always to talk to and sit with! Let's be a comfortable couple."
Oh and I loved the dinner at Cheeryble's! "never was such a dinner as that, since the world began".
I enjoyed this book, even if some pages were a little boring to read. Mrs. Nickleby is an idiot right to the end, I could not bear with her.
I was happy that Mr. Squeers in the end gets what he deserved but my heart too ached for the poor boys scattered around, was it really necessary?
I had not foresee Ralph's suicide but I was not surprised (a "Melmottian" exit).
A lovely reading. Thank you Piyangie for leading us and thanks to you all for the precious and interesting comments.

Daniela wrote: "What a finale!
I found the scene between Mr. Linkinwater and Miss La Creevy really touching, a beautiful declaration of elderly love: "Let's be a comfortable couple, and take care of each other! An..."

You are welcome, Daniela! I'm so pleased to hear that you enjoyed the discussion.

As both of you and Frances mentioned, it was a sad touch what happened to the boys who were not claimed, being abandoned here and there. It was pathetic and added a very sad note to the otherwise happy ending.

Yes, I too found Tim's "declaration" very touching - the best of all.

A thoroughly enjoyable read, made even more interesting by the thoughtful contributions of all participants and excellent guidance by the lead moderator. Thanks to you all.
I was mostly satisfied by the way the book ended, with Kate and Nicholas putting others first right up until the final chapter. I would have liked to have heard a little more from Madeline with Nicholas and Frank with Kate, once they had united, but that was left to the imagination.
The manner of Ralph’s demise came as a big surprise. Did the brothers suspect anything like what was found when they went round to Ralph’s house with Nicholas? Surely not or they would have tried to prevent it. Other ignominious deaths were Gride’s and Sir Mulberry’s. There seemed to be no chance of redemption or atonement for any of the evil plotters. In comparison, Squeers’ transportation seemed somewhat lenient considering his daily beatings and neglect of so many young innocents.
One thought I had was that Ralph’s money, instead of being swallowed up by the state, could have been put to better use by setting up a school for disadvantaged children (eg the Smike Nickleby Foundation) similar to the Foundling Hospital scheme. In that way Ralph’s ill gotten gains could have been turned into something positive and Smike could have achieved something worthwhile after all.
The British Library online have an excellent article (with links to original artefacts) relating to the novel and its influence on society at that time. It can be found here :-
https://www.bl.uk/romantics-and-victo...

It would have been a good thing to bring all the evil-doers to face their victims, but life often doesn't allow for that. But I was disappointed about Ralph, Gride and Mulberry, too. We can imagine that Mrs. Squeers and young Squeers will have a hard go of it in the future. Trev's suggestion for investing Ralph's money for good is excellent. But how great to reward Nicholas, Kate, Tim, and their partners for their goodness toward others!

Thank you, Piyangie, for moderating. I'm really glad I read the book.

This section sure did not disappoint. I did not expect Ralph’s demise, but the rest happened as it ought and as suspected.

I had tears when Nicholas came upon Newman Noggs, I was so happy for him! I also liked at the end, when we find out that Newman lives right near Nicholas and Kate and dotes on the children. That was really gratifying for me.

And when Tim was talking to Miss LaCreevy, that was very touching also!!! Daniela, I agree with your thoughts. It was so sweet!

I liked the dinner brought about by the Cheerbyl’s and what fun they had getting everyone together (the lovers).

I enjoyed the book as a whole. What a whirlwind we went through, and it was interesting the way Dickens had us start from Dotheboys and end there. It was certainly a compelling read, and he introduced us to many fascinating characters. One of my favorite parts of the book was when Nicholas and Smike were in the theater, I thought that was really fun, and the cast of characters was really thrilling. I do like how Dickens tidied everyone’s storylines up.

Frances, I agree about the boys from Dotheboys. That section had me choked up, the poor boy that was sleeping and the dog was guarding him. Breaks your heart!!

I’m still rather sad about Smike, what a touching tribute at the end, that the children would always keep fresh flowers where he was buried. So wonderful! If it weren’t for Mrs. Nickleby I’d have liked the book a whole lot more. She really grated on my nerves from beginning to end. How horrible she was to Miss LaCreevy. Even though she has two married children now and lots of grandchildren running around, she’s still acting like a child.
Other than that, I thought it was a great book!

Thank you Piyangie and everyone else for the read together -- It really added to the book, and I got so much more out of it!!

Trev wrote: "The British Library online have an excellent article (with links to original artefacts) relating to the novel and its influence on society at that time. It can be found here :-
https://www.bl.uk/romantics-and-victo.."

Thanks, Trev, that was really interesting (and horrifying that there really was a Dotheboys Hall/Wackford Squeers)

Trev wrote: "A thoroughly enjoyable read, made even more interesting by the thoughtful contributions of all participants and excellent guidance by the lead moderator. Thanks to you all.
I was mostly satisfied b..."

Thank you, Trev. I'm so pleased that you enjoyed the book and our discussion.

I echo your sentiment on having more of Madeline and Nicholas as well as Kate and Frank. Their stories abruptly end when they are happily united.

I completely agree with you about Ralph's money being put to good use than letting it go to the state. Nicholas could have done a lot of good for the needy with that money and of course in remembrance of Smike.

Thank you for sharing that informative article. It is quite valuable.

Theresa wrote: "It would have been a good thing to bring all the evil-doers to face their victims, but life often doesn't allow for that. But I was disappointed about Ralph, Gride and Mulberry, too. We can imagine..."

You are welcome, Theresa! So very happy to hear that you enjoyed the book.

Brenda wrote: "This section sure did not disappoint. I did not expect Ralph’s demise, but the rest happened as it ought and as suspected.

I had tears when Nicholas came upon Newman Noggs, I was so happy for him..."

You are welcome, Brenda! So pleased to hear that you enjoyed the book and our discussion.

Yes, Dickens does tidy up the ends to bring a satisfactory ending as a whole. I too am happy for Nicholas, Madeline, Kate, Frank, Newman, Tim, and Miss Creevy for having their own happy endings. They all earned that and are deserving.

It was so nice that Nicholas and Kate remembered their cousin and pay floral tribute to him. But it would have been awfully nice to have done something in the name of Smike with his father's money as Trev has suggested. After all, Smike had a claim for it if he had lived and we do have proof that despite his greedy manner, Ralph loved the boy.

I just had a few more thoughts...it was haunting really when we read about Ralph and then Dickens brings us back to the trap door of Smike’s youth. It almost seemed like Dickens was “tidying” that up.

I howled with laughter when the boys of Dotheboys turned on the Squeers and had the Mrs on her knees making her take the horrible concoction. And Fanny, selfish as ever, doesn’t consider that John saved them when breaking in, she was just proud and rude. Although I was curious what happened to the rest of the Squeers, it didn’t seem like it said, but I would assume prosecuted like Wackford? Or penniless?

If I read the article correctly that Trev provided, this was an earlier novel of Dickens and he didn’t really have a plan in mind as to where the book was going, so perhaps that’s why the ending is so? He’d tidied up the loose ends and he was just done at that point. I certainly would have appreciated less Mrs Nickleby to save space for more Kate & Nicholas at the end. But everyone lived happily ever after, so what more is to be said really?

Brenda wrote: "I just had a few more thoughts...it was haunting really when we read about Ralph and then Dickens brings us back to the trap door of Smike’s youth. It almost seemed like Dickens was “tidying” that ..."

The ending scene at the Dothboys Hall was dramatic. Mrs. Squeers somewhat got a deserving punishment! Fanny is still trying her proud and haughty manner when her father is disgraced and there is absolutely nothing to be proud of! I was glad that the Squeers household had to come to that horrible ending. Their treatment towards the innocent boys was beyond redemption.

Brenda wrote: "I just had a few more thoughts...it was haunting really when we read about Ralph and then Dickens brings us back to the trap door of Smike’s youth. It almost seemed like Dickens was “tidying” that ..."

The ending scene at the Dothboys Hall was dramatic. Mrs. Squeers somewhat got a deserving punishment! Fanny is still trying her proud and haughty manner when her father is disgraced and there is absolutely nothing to be proud of! I was glad that the Squeers household had to come to that horrible ending. Their treatment towards the innocent boys was beyond redemption.

I found this 'organised' reading an excellent way to become more familiar with Dickens. I hadn't read this particular novel, and found this a good way of doing so. Yes, the ending was a lot of tying up of loose ends: marriages, another death, punishment for bad behaviour. This all sounds rather simple in many ways. But, satisfying as far as it goes.

This is not a novel where people grow though, is it? I don't think that the characters moved very far in behaviour and attitude from where they were at the beginning. Their lives improve in many cases; and in others become untenable. However, we don't see redemption - the Squeers have learnt nothing, with Fanny as a particularly strong example; I'm not sure that Nicholas will be any less impetuous - he'll only have fewer occasions on which he feels thwarted; Mrs Nickleby is as foolish, not even learning from the marriages that take place without her 'assistance', or a surprise. Kate is a sensible thoughtful young woman from beginning to end - but will only be able to use these characteristics in the domestic sphere.

I am interested that the social commentary goes only so far. We hear about the appalling conditions in the Yorkshire schools, of which Dotheboys Hall is a prime example, but the release of those particular boys is minor in the face of the systemic cruelty children endured. I agree that Ralph's money could have been put to good use, after all, in this period the state was doing little to alleviate shocking conditions with the money it has. It seems to me that it would not have been too 'lecturing' for Ralph's money to have been used for an exemplary school. But, then, perhaps I am not enough of a Dickens expert to know whether this is a possibility in one of his novels.

Lest I sound too critical - I reiterate that I have enjoyed the reading, and the introductory comments before each section were terrific. Thank you, Piyangie. As were the comments from the other readers - thank you.

Robin wrote: "I found this 'organised' reading an excellent way to become more familiar with Dickens. I hadn't read this particular novel, and found this a good way of doing so. Yes, the ending was a lot of tyin..."

You are welcome, Robin! I'm very happy to hear that my commentaries were useful. :)

You have raised a good point on character growth. I didn't give much thought for it, but now on reflection, it is quite true. Dickens has focused on the story more than on character development.

And as to social commentary, it touched only so far as Yorkshire boarding school. There were some promising areas in the beginning - the theatre being one, but they were dropped in the middle and only Dothboys Hall was taken toward the end.

Thank you Piyangie. This remains my favourite book by Dickens.

Trisha wrote: "Thank you Piyangie. This remains my favourite book by Dickens."

You are welcome, Trisha!

Hi all, I gather all of you have by this time finished the reading of this interesting book. Many of you have expressed that this is your favourite book, and that made me curious to know why it is so. I enjoyed the book, no doubt, but it didn't become a favourite of mine. So if you can spare time, kindly share with us why this book was a favourite of yours in comparison with other Dickens's work, etc. Or if it wasn't a favourite, why so.

Piyangie, I think that on my first reading I expected more of the book to be set in the school, but enjoyed the way other parts of the story were told. This time I knew the story so noticed more of the details & the way the characters developed & interacted. I think that Dickens used a lot of extra characters & side stories to lengthen his books & allow them to be serialised - something that I find an irritating distraction in some books, such as the circus in David Copperfield (I hope I remembered that correctly!) But in this book I thought these extra characters were more relevant & added to the story. I also enjoyed the interactions between the main characters - Nicholas & his sister, Smike of course, the twin brothers,... I liked it all, & suspect that when I read it again some time I’ll find even more details that I’ve missed so far.

Trisha wrote: "Piyangie, I think that on my first reading I expected more of the book to be set in the school, but enjoyed the way other parts of the story were told. This time I knew the story so noticed more of..."

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Trisha. I liked David Copperfield more. It is a favourite of mine.

It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my first read was when it was a compulsory book in school, probably when I was too young to appreciate it. It’s strange that although I have loved reading for as long as I can remember, the subject I really detested at school was English Literature - books that I hated reading & unbearably boring lessons.

Trisha wrote: "It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my first read was when it was a compulsory book i..."

I understand you completely, Trisha. When you study literature as a subject in school, it is quite different from our pleasure readings. It can be tedious and boring. I had the same problem with Wuthering Heights. I detested the book. Literature was one horror that semester! But I reread it three years ago and appreciated it more. I never can like the characters, but did like the story. I don't remember liking David Copperfield much as a teen either. But I really loved it when read as an adult.

Trisha wrote: "It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my first read was when it was a compulsory book i..."
Oh, my goodness, yes. Lorna Doone, was my horror. And yet, how amazing in the 1950s to have a set book that features a woman as the main character. I probably should reread it under better conditions. I recall someone a couple of years ago really giving Lorna Doone a top rating on a Goodreads discussion.

Robin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my first read was when it was a co..."

Ah, Robin, you must read it. It is one of my favourite books. One of the most beautiful I've read. I liked it as a child too (that was an abridged children edition) and I truly think it is the book which made me fall in love with classics. Next followed Pride and Prejudice :)

Piyangie wrote: "Robin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my first read was wh..."

Thank you. i suspected that there was far more to it than my junior high school enforced read. I'll see if it is on kindle - with Covid keeping me away from unnecessary shopping it is wonderful just to be able to buy books without moving from the house.

Robin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my first read was when it was a co..."

Robin, it’s interesting to read your comment about Lorna Doone. I assume, perhaps wrongly, that you are in the USA. Inflicting Lorna Doone on students seems a strange choice as the dialect must make it very difficult to understand. I first chose to read it many years ago, fascinated by hearing about it while on holiday in the area where the story is set. I read it again fairly recently & still liked it but didn’t enjoy it as much as I remembered.
I like your point about a female main character - a point I hadn’t considered.

Trisha wrote: "Robin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my first read was wh..."

I'm Australian, but you are still right about the language. Its hard for us too (although the characters might well have found it difficult to understand me, I acknowledge). Lorna Doone was set for country high school students in the 1950s. Yes, re the woman character, I wonder why there was a deviation from the male domination of main characters, which I recall. If we ever get to travel again I shall do as you did, read it on location!

Robin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "Robin wrote: "Trisha wrote: "It’s interesting that you prefer David Copperfield, Piyangie. I know it is a favourite for a lot of people. I suspect it was spoiled for me because my fi..."

Sorry, Robin, I had you in the wrong place! I suppose at that time it made some sense that you had to read English classics in your school. Yes, travelling makes some books more interesting - I have wonderful memories of first reading books by Thomas Hardy on a beach while on holidays in Dorset. Many people dislike his books but they still remind me of places & people that I loved many years ago.

Trisha, that's fine. We have much in common with America and the UK through our reading. Perhaps more so the UK, with Enid Blyton to read at home and Biggles as part of our school libraries. My Canadian reading included LM Montgomery, an all time favourite, and American, Louisa M. Alcott.

Recently I've been writing something about my four and a half years living in London and Cambridge, connecting novels to the places I have visited so really appreciate your interest in reading on location. Alas, when I travelled to Dorset to look for ancestors' graves (found them, and a scouts hall named after another!) I didn't think of reading on location. If we ever get there again, the UK will be my first trip after Covid controls lift, I'll try Hardy at the Ringstead cottage on the Dorset coast that my friends rent. Thank you for the idea.

About the topic some posts ago (I am using the cell and I don't have the reply function): my favourite Dickens is A Tale Of Two Cities but I have to say that I have to read again David Copperfield as I read it as a child.

Daniela wrote: "About the topic some posts ago (I am using the cell and I don't have the reply function): my favourite Dickens is A Tale Of Two Cities but I have to say that I have to read again David Copperfield ..."

Thanks for sharing, Daniela. A Tale of Two Cities is one of my favourite of Dickens too. I've three favourites so far this and David Copperfield included.