The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Three non-spoiler thread for the book The Ghost on the Throne: The Death of Alexander the Great and the War for Crown and Empire by James Romm

by James Romm (no photo)

Hello Everyone,

For the week of July 27th - August 2nd, we are reading Chapter 3: The Athenians’ Last Stand (I) of Ghost On the Throne by James Romm.

The third week's reading assignment is:

WEEK THREE - July 27th - August 2nd -> 3. The Athenians’ Last Stand (I) (57 - 85)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off July 13th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~ Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by James Romm (no photo)

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the citation thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Link:

by James Romm (no photo)

Everyone, for the week of July 27th - August 2nd, we are reading Chapter 3.

The third week's reading assignment is:

WEEK THREE - July 27th - August 2nd -> 3. The Athenians’ Last Stand (I) (57 - 85)

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 3

In this chapter, we leave Babylon and the Bodyguards and travel to Athens, which learned of Alexander’s demise after several weeks. Athens had been under the thumb of Macedonia for several years. Many leading Athenians had fought against Alexander, including Demosthenes (currently in exile for bribery) and Hyperides, once a close ally of Demosthenes, and they now wanted independence. Another more moderate group led by Phocion urged patience.

There had been unrest in Athens for a while. In 324 BC Harpalus, formerly a close friend of Alexander, had fled Babylon with warships, mercenaries and embezzled money. He proposed helping Athens revolt, but there wasn’t an appetite for that at the time, and he sailed away. At about the same time hundreds of mercenaries packed a town at the bottom of the Peloponnese, led by a rogue captain named Leosthenes. On top of this, Alexander sent a letter to the Olympic Games declaring that all exiles, about 20,000 of them, could return to their home cities, causing strife with the current occupants.

Now that it was known that Alexander was gone, the Athenians felt they could break away from Macedonian control. Leosthenes led his forces north to Thermopylae, to do battle against the Macedonian forces led by Antipater, who had been charged by Alexander with guarding Macedonia. When the forces met at Lamia, many of Antipater’s Thessalian forces deserted to Leosthenes and Antipater’s men were forced to take over the walled city of Lamia. While the siege was taking place, Demosthenes and Hyperides reconciled and it looked as though Athens couldn’t lose.

Chapter Three


Macedonian phalanx

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Why were Harpalus and Leosthenes allowed to run off with treasure and mercenaries? Couldn’t Alexander or someone else in charge have stopped them or at least rehired the mercenaries away from them?

2. What would have been the effect of exiled men returning to their original cities, as Alexander had ordered in his Exiles Decree? Wouldn’t there have been a lot of fighting with the people who had moved into the cities?

Hello everyone, I am on vacations with only a mobile phone so I will not be commenting much, I will read your comments though. This chapter was quite exciting and may come as a surprise to people unfamiliar with ancient Greek politics (or modern for that matter).
Have a great week everyone!

Michael wrote: "Hello everyone, I am on vacations with only a mobile phone so I will not be commenting much, I will read your comments though. This chapter was quite exciting and may come as a surprise to people u..."

I look forward to your return to commenting, Michael. I was wondering why the country is referred to as Macedon sometimes and Macedonia other times. Maybe you have a thought.

It would appear that it's not difficult to take off with your set of mercenaries and try something new, like offering them to Athens or going to war with Macedonia. It made me wonder how mercenaries were hired and how they were paid. Where did you find some when you needed them?

Vicki wrote: "It would appear that it's not difficult to take off with your set of mercenaries and try something new, like offering them to Athens or going to war with Macedonia. It made me wonder how mercenarie..."
Vickie, I think the answer to the first question lies in the answers to the questions in your most recent post. And I got nothing. Perhaps Alexander can help us. I wonder why a mercenary would defect BEFORE he had a better offer in hand. I always had a new job before I quit my current one.

Bill, I suspect it was a matter of money ... some mercenaries had trouble getting paid ...
Regards,
Andrea

Vicki wrote: "I look forward to your return to commenting, Michael. I was wondering why the country is referred to as Macedon sometimes and Macedonia other times. Maybe you have a thought."

Thank you Vicki!
Quick and mundane explanation: the former is ancient Greek and the latter is modern Greek. I will elaborate next week if anyone's interested.

Michael, we are interested.

It's interesting that Harpalus was Macedonian by birth and received Athenian citizenship later, while Leosthenes was Athenian by birth but spent his childhood in Macedonia. I got the impression from the book that most Macedonians thought Athenians were effete and most Athenians thought Macedonians were barbarians.

Vicki wrote: "It would appear that it's not difficult to take off with your set of mercenaries and try something new, like offering them to Athens or going to war with Macedonia. It made me wonder how mercenarie..."

I don't think there's much information available over the exact process regarding how mercenaries were hired in that day. I know Philip's Macedonia was pretty wealthy compared to other Greek city-states, since he had access to gold and silver mines. He probably had more mercenaries than his Greek enemies as a result.

As an aside, when Darius was at war with Alexander, his only reliable infantry forces were, ironically enough, Greek mercenaries.

I remember reading that Carthage didn't use its citizens in its army, just mercenaries, in contrast to Rome, whose soldiers were citizens and men from allied cities. But the Wikipedia page for Cathage's military says that soldiers from areas controlled by Carthage could be considered as comparable to those from Rome's allies. The subject of mercenaries is quite complicated.

Here's the link to the Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...

Hi everyone, the discussion is very interesting, I hope everyone is having fun!
Athens is in the middle of a heatwave but it's such a vibrant place!
Speaking of greek mercenaries let's not forget the most famous of them all, the Myrioi (Μύριοι), the 10.000 that is, that were hired by Cyrus and their long journey back was recorded by Xenophon.

2. What would have been the effect of exiled men returning to their original cities, as Alexander had ordered in his Exiles Decree? Wouldn’t there have been a lot of fighting with the people who had moved into the cities?

I've been looking around the Internet to find out more about exiles, with not much luck. Individuals being exiled is fairly common, but I couldn't find anything about what happens when a whole town gets exiled. Perhaps the ancient sources didn't elaborate because they assumed people already knew about it.

Exile is a strange punishment. Most criminals today would, I assume, welcome exile. We worry about the accused going to another country. Of course, when you exile an entire city-state, it’s not about criminals. Most of the exiled are innocents. As to the specific question about exiling an entire city and then allowing the exiles to return, no good can come from it. It seems to me that problems would start when the entire city was first exiled and only exacerbated when the exiled return. I find it hard not to look at things from today’s perspective.

Michael and anyone else, I’ve always thought of it as Alexander’s empire—not the Macedon or Macedonian empire. How do modern day Greeks think of it? Other people? Thanks.

Folks, why do you think the Athenians wanted to get out from under the control of Macedon? Were they prevented from doing something they wanted to do, or forced to do something they didn't? Or was it just Athenian pride?

A while ago I mentioned my surprise at how many "characters" were mentioned in the book's first chapter. It's interesting to check out the index to see which ones are referred to a lot, like Alexander, and which ones not so much. For instance, we met Eumenes early on, but he hasn't been mentioned too much recently. However, he does have many, many index references, so we're going to learn a lot about him in the coming chapters.

Vicki wrote: "A while ago I mentioned my surprise at how many "characters" were mentioned in the book's first chapter.

Yes! Thank you! I am glad to know that I wasn't the only one. I have been overwhelmed by how many names of people and places are mentioned. Sometimes, I even get confused with a person vs a place... very embarrassed to say.

It tells me how VAST the Alexander's empire was and how complicated to rule the each region. I am in awe.....this was that long ago?! I also wish that I have read a book about his conquest before reading this book. Do you or anyone (and any librarians in this group, please) have any book recommendation? Fiction preferred but non fiction is welcome too. Thanks.

Yuki wrote: "I also wish that I have read a book about his conquest before reading this book. Do you or anyone (and any librarians in this group, please) have any book recommendation?..."

I'm with you there, Yuki. It's kind of like being thrown into the deep end of the pool. I feel that I'm gradually getting oriented, though.

Bill wrote: "Michael and anyone else, I’ve always thought of it as Alexander’s empire—not the Macedon or Macedonian empire. How do modern day Greeks think of it? Other people? Thanks."

Same here, it is Alexander we associate with the whole conquest and the resulting empire, not the kingdom of Macedon. I remember history maps from my school years titled "Alexander the Great 's Conquests".
Of course Alexander was king of Macedon but it has always been about him in most peoples' minds. That said, there was in the mid-nineties an awareness about Macedonia as a whole rather than just focusing on Alexander due to the political situation at the time but it hasn't really caught on.

Vicki wrote: "I look forward to your return to commenting, Michael. I was wondering why the country is referred to as Macedon sometimes and Macedonia other times. Maybe you have a thought."

Let me elaborate a bit more. As said before, Macedon is ancient Greek, Macedonia is modern Greek. Notice that in both cases the "c" is hard, it is actually pronounced "k".
In ancient Greek Macedon (Μακεδών) was both an adjective and a noun when referring to the land. The most probable explanation (again I am no expert in linguistics) is that the original form was "γη Μακεδών" (land Macedon) meaning Macedonian land, with Macedon as an adjective. The land (γη) was dropped through use so the land was just Macedon.
In modern Greek we use Macedonia which is essentially the same root just with a modern Greek ending. It is a name in modern Greek essentially following the grammar for nouns. The adjective has a distinct form "Μακεδονικός" - Macedonian.

Fun fact: in English it is Athens because in ancient Greek the name of city was in plural form "Αθήναι" in contrast to modern the Greek "Αθήνα" which is in singular.

Michael, thanks for the language lesson. Pronunciation is always tricky. Sadly, I won't be able to use the hard c for Macedon, it's just stuck in my mind with a soft c.

Thanks, Michael. On the pronunciation, I suspect I’m like Vicki and will always pronounce Macedonia with a soft C, but I will always think about it being a hard C.

You are welcome, no worries about pronunciation, it is just what happens when transliterating.

Yuki wrote: "I also wish that I have read a book about his conquest before reading this book. Do you or anyone (and any librarians in this group, please) have any book recommendation? Fiction preferred but non fiction is welcome too. Thanks.."

Hi Yuki. I was searching the Goodreads database for something like that and there is an author, who wrote a trilogy about the life of Alexander.. They sound like they might be pretty good.
by Mary Renault

Yuki wrote: "Vicki wrote: "A while ago I mentioned my surprise at how many "characters" were mentioned in the book's first chapter.

Yes! Thank you! I am glad to know that I wasn't the only one. I have been ov..."

Hi, Yuki, here's some good nonfiction about Alexander that I've read:

by Robin Lane Fox
by Philip Freeman
by Ian Worthington (no photo)

Here's some nonfiction that I haven't yet read:

by Anthony Everitt
by F.S. Naiden (no photo)
by Peter Green
by Adrian Goldsworthy

And here's some fiction I know of, but I haven't read these either:

by Nicholas Nicastro
by Christian Cameron
by Stephanie Thornton
by Steven Pressfield

Glynn wrote: "I was searching the Goodreads database for something like that and there is an author, who wrote a trilogy about the life of Alexander...."

Thanks, Glynn. In citing a book, we always like to include the author's picture, if available, like so:

by Mary Renault

I read this last year and I liked it. She also wrote a history of Alexander, The Nature of Alexander, which I haven't read.

by Mary Renault

Jerome wrote: "Hi, Yuki, here's some good nonfiction about Alexander that I've read:..."

Thanks a lot, Jerome. What a great list of books. You must really be interested in Alexander.

Vicki wrote:
Thanks a lot, Jerome. What a great list of books. You must really be interested in Alexander."

Glynn, Jerome, Vicki

Thank you for all the book recommendations. Through Amazon and Goodreads search, I did also come across

by Mary Renault

Jerome, I will definitely look through the non fiction list of yours. Thanks.

And my "Want to read" list goes longer and longer...LOL.

Yuki wrote: "And my "Want to read" list goes longer and longer...LOL..."

OMG, does one's want-to-read list ever get shorter? There just aren't enough days in the year.

Could I trouble Jerome, Glynn, Vicki - to please add all books to the bibliography which I just noticed was locked - I unlocked it.

It is fine to have them here too but then only folks who read the Week Three thread will see them. I would like them placed in the Bibliography so that all folks from all weeks will see the list of books.

And who knows - we may read other books about Alexander.

Jerome was kind enough to also post his great list of books on the Bibliography thread.

I do not have any problem with folks posting books on the weekly threads as long as they are on the Bibliography thread too - and they should be posted FIRST on the bibliography thread!

Vicki and Glynn - could you also add your books to the bibliography thread and cite them as Jerome kindly did.

Thanks everyone for this detail.

Here is the link to the Bibliography thread where you should add any books first: (please use proper citations and we will help you)

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Vicki wrote: "Chapter Three


Macedonian phalanx

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Why were Harpalus and Leosthenes allowed to run off with treasure and mercenaries? Couldn’t Alexander or someone else in cha..."

I was surprised th Alexander did not have Harpalus executed but he may have been in love with him. I think that Alexander preference was men. But what I found more interesting about this chapter was the discussion of Aristotle. Can't help but wonder how Aristotle and Alexander interacted with one another, but that was never discussed in the book and probably no one knows the relationship between these two.

Savannah, Aristotle is worth a book discussion all on his own. I wonder what he thought of the grown-up boy he taught.

Vicki wrote: "Savannah, Aristotle is worth a book discussion all on his own. I wonder what he thought of the grown-up boy he taught."Yes, my beloved Aristotle would be worth its own discussion. I went to a website that had some of Plutarch's writings. Apparently, Alexander had initially had a great fondness for Aristotle but that turned to some bitterness. It never discussed Aristotle's view of Alexander.

All, when you complete reading and posting up through page 85 and comment about anything you want to discuss about Chapter 3. The Athenians’ Last Stand (I), please go to the Week Four thread.

Here is the link to the Week Four thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...