The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

The Mirror and the Light, by Hilary Mantel

Please remember to read the Booker Folder Rules and post accordingly

At first I struggled with Wolf Hall, but I ended up loving it. The advice to watch the BBC adaptation starring Mark Rylance was an excellent suggestion. I watched each episode after finishing the sub-section of the same name and it really supported my comprehension. [The Tudors were not taught in my Canadian History classes.]

I am nearly finished Bring Up the Bodies and looking forward to tackling The Mirror and The Light. I'm so interested that I may read MacCulloch's biography of Cromwell before moving onto The Mirror and The Light.

I’m glad you’re enjoying them, Dylan. I read all 3 in a row and was so immersed in the court of Henry the VIII and Cromwell that I found it hard to leave it when the book ended. I’m in the minority that would be happy to see her win a 3rd Booker for this.

I read all 3 in a row during the lockdown in NZ in March. Loved all of them, but TMATL is my favourite. Just stunning.

I agree Suzanne. It may be the most predictable book on the list but I don't see how it could have been omitted. I particularly liked the final part.

The judges generally do seem to have favoured diverse voices, debut or lesser known authors, and shorter books.

So
a) Mirror and the Light, while included as not doing so would have been odd, is rather unlikely to win;
or
b) having chosen the list they did, all the more likely Mirror and the Light wins.

My heart is firmly in team a, but my head says team b.

Paul wrote: "The judges generally do seem to have favoured diverse voices, debut or lesser known authors, and shorter books.

So
a) Mirror and the Light, while included as not doing so would have been odd, is ..."

Same boat - I feel like I'm in denial by saying that Apeirogon has a good chance of winning

Actually, even as a Mantel fan I can see a good case for Apeirogon winning and would not be unhappy if it does. It would still be pretty brave to leave either off the shortlist!

Agreed. Though it was brave to leave Smith (if entered), O'Farrell and Robinson, among others, off the longlist.

I loved them, but I agree another win isn’t important. If it truly is judged to be the best and not just a nice way to round out the trilogy I would be happy, but I’ll be most happy if the book that most agree deserves to win it wins.
I don’t want to see the Booker divided between Mantel because it should and another because it was judged the best.

MaTL still at top of my list, I think it is brilliant and love it. Unashamed Mantel fan. Gen X fanboy though I ain’t a boomer! Missed that just :) But many still to get to and Apeirogon likely to make it high on my list knowing my tastes and what I’m reading about it in reviews. I’m definitely open to shifting Mirror from my current number 1 spot. Lots of reading to do.

Me too, John. It took me 4 times to read Wolf Hall, I’d start then flake out after Cardinal Wolsey was kicked out of Hampton, but when TMATL was about to be released I started it and read the 3 all in a row and absolutely loved every minute. Before I read Wolf Hall I was a big fan of Mantel and have read all of her novels except A Place of Greater Safety and Learning to Talk.

WndyJW wrote: "Me too, John. It took me 4 times to read Wolf Hall, I’d start then flake out after Cardinal Wolsey was kicked out of Hampton, but when TMATL was about to be released I started it and read the 3 all..."

I started reading Wolf Hall this year and I was enjoying it and even took it to Sweden with me (I like taking challenging novels with me as I can focus on them, especially during the plane ride)

But then COVID-19 happened, I was on page 300 and I lost all concentration and focus - I tried to pick up Hurricane Season and Animalia and I just couldn't progress with them. Luckily my partner and I got on a flight to Malta and despite the mandatory 14 day quarantine, which meant I had plenty of reading time, I couldn't focus on anything except novellas.

I'm not trying to make this a sob story but I am sort of angry at myself for not being able to finish a book I was enjoying.

I received a book voucher so I will be buying TM&TL so maybe, just maybe I'll have the impetus to start the trilogy again.

I read the entire trilogy earlier this year. I will admit I found Wolf Hall difficult to get into, but found Bring Up The Bodies much more accessible- and thought that The Mirror and the Light was a brilliant conclusion.

That's a question that's on my mind, though- will The Mirror and the Light be appealing enough as a standalone? Is anyone here going to attempt to read it without having read the previous two books? I'm wondering how my enjoyment of this book is influenced by the fact that I read the two previous books.

This was my favorite of the trilogy. I liked each book better than the last and I like them all. It's masterfully done. If it wins, I'll be happy, although I pretty sure my favorite is Apeirogon, at least today. Both are quality books that should be on the shortlist. I don't see how Mantel gets left off with this one, if the first two were winners. And Apeirogon is just astounding in both style and content. As of now, my top two reads for 2020 (I expect Jack will join them in September).

I think you’ll be inspired, Robert. My problem the first few time with WH was trying to rememberers who everyone was and all the relationships, which is not necessary. Eventually you know without checking the character list, you only need to know who is Team Katherine/Pope/Elizabeth and who is Tea, Henry/Cromwell/Anne Boleyn.

Laura, TMATL can be read alone because Cromwell reflects on his life and the characters are explained in the list. I think it’s much more enjoyable if one has read the first two, but my opinion is it’s not necessary.

A question for those who have read the entire trilogy:

I could not get into Wolf Hall and gave up maybe a third through, skimming some of the rest. I also did not like Mantel's portrayal of Thomas More at all.

I have read/heard more uniformly positive reviews of Bring Up the Bodies & The Mirror and the Light.

How important is it that I didn't read WH in its entirety? Can I move on to BUtB?

If you didn’t like WH and Mantel’s portrayal of More you probably won’t feel much different about BUTB and TMATL. It’s one long story, but you don’t have to read the previous books to read numbers 2 or 3.

Doesn’t Thomas More come to his end in Wolf Hall? Does Mantel continue to go over him in the two sequels?

I really must finally buckle down and read these…

Yes, Trevor - I suspect there is some confusion because there are so many Thomases to keep track of.

Jessie, if you didn't enjoy the portrayal of Thomas More I can assure you that he is largely absent from Bring Up the Bodies aside from the occasional memory. However, if you meant to say that you were not fond of Thomas Cromwell, you're out of luck as it's the story from his perspective.

Yes, you can move onto Bring Up the Bodies, especially if you are already familiar with the historical events. If not, I would recommend watching the first four episodes of the BBC adaptation (starring Mary Rylance) - which I was able to access via Hoopla - which will set you up for Bring Up the Bodies.

On that note - I just finished Bring Up the Bodies and will be beginning The Mirror & The Light soon. I think I will tackle a few other titles before inhabiting Cromwell again.

If Jessie did mean More - Mantel’s portrayal of him as villain and Cromwell as hero (I am simplifying but that is the distinct and deliberate sense) is the most unusual/controversial part of the book, and very contrary to a lot of other portrayals - particularly A Man of All Seasons - then I think it would be difficult to like the rest of the books.

I meant More. My husband and I are (and my father was) very fond of him, to the point that Thomas is near the top of our prospective baby names list in his honor. Ha. I don't have a problem with the Cromwell portrayal (from what I read).

Thank you all for your input. I thought about watching the BBC show in lieu of trying Wolf Hall again. Maybe I'll try that then consider books 2 and 3.

I'm going to see if I can find the BBC series. That may be the only way I ever get to this one, so thank you for the suggestion! I did start Wolf Hall, then I went to work and when I emerged months later, the library had taken it back. I don't have access to Hoopla anymore, but I'm sure there must be a way to view it on some other service, so if I find it anywhere, I'll post here.

A lot of love from this from the judges on the Booker longlist podcast - Busby in particular but all three were strong fans. Sissay joked that like Tony Blair they felt the hand of history on their shoulder and Busby said there was lots of outside noise around the book - but they all considered it brilliant in its own right. Busby described it as setting out the making of our nation state.

I was not familiar with Thomas More or Thomas Cromwell, other than they were associated with the Reformation somehow. Because of WH I have positive feeling about Cromwell and very negative feeling about More, which I know is unfair since they both believed in their cause and both tortured people.

In Mantel’s version of events Cromwell has sympathy for More near the end of More’s life.

I thought this in The Tablet was a reasonably balanced view of Mantel's treatment of More, arguing it is more realistic than the hagiographic play A Man for All Seasons, but a little too tilted in the opposite direction

https://www.thetablet.co.uk/features/...

There is no legitimate evidence that More tortured anyone himself.

Balanced article, Paul -- thanks.

Jessie wrote: "There is no legitimate evidence that More tortured anyone himself."

Do you mean he didn’t order torture or he didn’t engage in torture? In the book neither man actively tortured anyone, but both ordered torture and More ordered torture as a matter of course. As I said I know nothing except what I read in the WH series and what I googled so if you tell me otherwise I have no reason to disagree.

The books are (beautifully written) revisionist fiction. There have been some Protestant authors who claimed More tortured or ordered torture, but he denied it and there is no evidence. Considering he had no problem admitting to other terrible things (like condemning heretics to be burned alive), there seems no reason not to take him at his word.

Cromwell did preside over torture as well as playing both sides, putting both Protestants and Catholic monks to death.

Mantel also paints More as a misogynist, but his own writing/behavior and actual history strongly disagree.

I'm not claiming the guy was perfect. His canonization is controversial. But he was honest and had integrity, which is ... unusual among politicians.

Jessie wrote: "The books are (beautifully written) revisionist fiction. There have been some Protestant authors who claimed More tortured or ordered torture, but he denied it and there is no evidence. Considering..."

Thanks for all of the insight into both men, everyone. Very interesting, and if I do find the time to read the second two books, this will be even more useful as never have enough time to do extensive research on every book I read. If only I did...

I have great admiration for the trilogy as a whole, but this was my least favorite of the three books. It felt a bit bloated and disjointed, and I frequently found myself lost in the cast of homogenous characters. I had similar issues with the first half of the first book, but at that point I was still acclimating to the world so my confusion was more tolerable. Bring Up the Bodies worked the best for me and I credit that to its more circumscribed narrative arc and overall tautness.

I read all 3 book one right after the other so it felt like one very long book to me!

Best get my tin hat I fear.
Must preface what I'm about to say by admitting that I couldn't get anywhere near finishing this. After around 275 pages I was just losing the will to continue.
I liked Wolf Hall, didn't like Bringing up the Bodies and this just felt like a continuation of the same old stuff.
Obviously not having finished it makes it hard to say if it justified 900+ pages but it doesn't feel like it does. Really felt to me like it was, possibly, becoming a bloated piece of author self indulgence.
Obviously she's a very gifted writer but I what I read of this just felt like a rinse and repeat excercise on a massive scale.
I think it will probably win and if the judges think it should then that is fair enough. Though I would like to see something which adds something a bit fresher to the fiction genre to triumph.
One day I will try again as I always feel bad about not finishing a book especially when it is obvious the author has put a lot of work into it.

I would agree with all of that with one exception. I did spot on and finish the book - and felt bad about that!

BookerMT2 wrote: "I liked Wolf Hall, didn't like Bringing up the Bodies."

Same here, although Wolf Hall didn't make my shortlist in rankings and I only read a fifth of Bring Up the Bodies. Not reading this regardless of whether it makes the shortlist or wins.

The problem was the pace of the plot. The book picks up where Bring up the Bodies had left off, with the execution of Anne Boleyn in May 1536, but it took almost 400 pages to reach 1537! There were far too many reminiscences about Cromwell's youth, whether his relationship with his father or his experiences in Italy.

Ah yes, another book that is loved and hated.

I did enjoy the last 400 pages, though! :)

I enjoyed the last page!

Well I’m going to attempt wolf hall for a 3rd time and work up to the trilogy. The usage of ‘he’ just annoys me though

I think I preferred it to 'he, Cromwell,' all the time, but Mantel was asked to change the 'he' and did, to something which did not change the narrative 'voice' too much, but I think is a bit clumsy.

Loved every page of every book. Read Wolf Hall at least three times and Bring up the Bodies at least twice.

Well I haven’t started TMATL yet and I think I’m going to reread the first 2 before I do. I found them both tedious and really rough going. But my theory is that I’ve read a lot of books since then. I always tell young people who don’t read that it is a skill; that you have to learn it and get better little by little. The same goes for me. All these books have helped me to focus and appreciate more and more every year. Good theory?

It is but if you found the first two tedious I am really not sure I could recommend this one.

It didn’t take long for me to remember that unless the “he” was obviously someone else, “he” is Cromwell, and I agree with Val, “he, Cromwell” was more annoying than “he” that did not refer to the last name mentioned.

Gumble's Yard wrote: "It is but if you found the first two tedious I am really not sure I could recommend this one."

I just finished Wolf Hall and was hoping to jump right into BUTB and TMATL, but I don't know if I have it in me. I guess I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the thought of reading another 400+ of BUTB before even starting the 700+ pages of TMATL.

Overall, I liked the book. I've always been a fan of historical fiction, and this one was particularly well-written and rich in historical detail and context. However, I started to lose interest toward the end, and like Jessie above, found myself rushing through the last few chapters.

If I think about it, I never really warmed up to the characters. They felt "flat" to me --lots of conversation and pontification, but little in the way of insight or introspection. This was even true for Cromwell himself, although his relationship with the Cardinal and feelings for Johane hinted at something deeper.

Or perhaps his opaqueness was by design?

For those who have read the entire trilogy, do the next two books dig any deeper? Or is it more of the same? I already know where the plot is headed (for obvious reasons), so I am curious about what to expect going forward.

I finished this morning and I adored the book, especially the way Mantel puts the words together, lighting up even the "boring" (but not to me) plot features. I did watch Wolf Hall again (recommended) and could hear Cromwell's cadence throughout. I loved the history as it's always been a favorite time period of mine to read about. I can't imagine it not getting to the shortlist and I hope that if it doesn't win, it's clearly a better book. If it's going to be better, I haven't read it yet and I have read Apeirogon and it does come quite close, though.

I think if you loved Wolf Hall, you’ll love the next two. If you found Wolf Hall tedious, you’ll find the next two tedious. I loved them, but I did read shorter books while reading the trilogy because I read them one right after another.

I liked The Mirror and the Light the best. I was never bored and sitting on the edge of my chair at the end, even though I know the ending.