The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Four non-spoiler thread for the book The Ghost on the Throne: The Death of Alexander the Great and the War for Crown and Empire by James Romm

by James Romm (no photo)

Hello Everyone,

For the week of August 3rd - August 9th, we are reading Chapter 4: Resistance, Rebellion, Reconquest of Ghost On the Throne by James Romm.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FOUR - August 3rd - August 9th -> 4. Resistance, Rebellion, Reconquest (86 - 109)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off July 13th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~ Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by James Romm (no photo)

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the citation thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Link:

by James Romm (no photo)

Everyone, for the week of August 3rd - August 9th, we are reading Chapter 4.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FOUR - August 3rd - August 9th -> 4. Resistance, Rebellion, Reconquest (86 - 109)

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 4

News of Alexander’s death spread rapidly in the non-European part of the empire, thanks to various long-distance communication methods. In Babylon, Perdiccas as regent sent orders to the various satraps and generals. Antigonus in Phrygia was to retain his position and was ordered to help Eumenes in Cappadocia, but he did nothing.

In the far northeast of the empire, in Bactria, word of Alexander’s death was the signal thousands of Greek mercenaries needed to leave and finally go home.

In Cilicia, on the other side of the empire, Craterus, who was supposed to join Antipater in ruling the European part of the empire, received a plea from Antipater to break the siege by the Athenians at Lamia. Antipater even offered one of his daughters as Craterus’ wife, but Craterus wasn’t sure which would be better for him, to help Antipater or perhaps take command away from Perdiccas.

Perdiccas himself was about to marry another of Antipater’s daughters to cement his connection to the European part of the empire. He also had to worry about the deserting Greek troops from Bactria. He sent Peithon, another former Bodyguard, to stop the Greek soldiers, with orders to kill them all to stop them from being used by another general, perhaps Peithon, to overthrow Perdiccas himself.

Meanwhile in Egypt Ptolemy was going to marry yet another of Antipater’s daughters. He had already gotten rid of the corrupt finance minister Cleomenes Alexander had installed. He had also saved the wealthy Greek city of Cyrene on the North African coast from the mercenaries led by Thibron, a Spartan.

It took a lot longer for the news to reach the banks of the Indus River, but it didn’t take much longer for Chandragupta, native to the area, and his councilor Chanakya to take over the region and drive out the Macedonians.

Chapter Four


Alexander's empire at his death

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Do you think any of the main players really thought Alexander’s empire would remain whole, except maybe Perdiccas? Weren’t they all thinking of how to hang onto their piece?

2. How lucky for Antipater that he had three marriageable daughters to parcel out to future allies. Comments?

3. How did Perdiccas keep his plan to have the deserting Greek soldiers from Bactria slaughtered when Peithon and his troops found them, secret from Peithon, whom he didn’t trust? Were the commanders just under Peithon the only ones who knew, and were given the orders?

I thought the contrast in the opening sentences of Chapter 3 and Chapter 4 was quite interesting.

Chapter 3: "News of Alexander's death took several weeks to reach the cities of European Greece."
Chapter 4: "News of Alexander's death traveled outward from Babylon like shock-waves from an earthquake."

The rapid communication methods in the Asian part of the empire are rather impressive.

1. No I don’t get the feeling that they thought it was going to remain as a whole. It seems as soon as word reached that Alexander was dead the wheels started turning on how to grab power or to break away from the empire.

There was Antigonus refusing to help a battle in the west, the Greeks in the east revolting, Peithon who didn’t seem to have a dog in this fight is beginning to sniff out a power grab, and Ptolemy planning his own fight against Peridiccas.

Seems like Peridiccas is loosely holding onto power.

2. Being such an important man it was certainly fortuitous not just for him but the other key players who sough out his support for their own motives. He seemingly agree without hesitation, meaning he probably had his own reasons, and I am interested in reading how this plays out in further chapters. It is also disturbing to read about women and how they are used as pawns in the games of powerful men.

3. If it was in the back of his head I would imagine telling the troops to kill the whole army and walk away with the spoils of war was far more enticing.

Stephanie wrote: "1. No I don’t get the feeling that they thought it was going to remain as a whole. It seems as soon as word reached that Alexander was dead the wheels started turning on how to grab power or to bre..."

I think you're right about this, Stephanie. It's possible that even if Alexander didn't die, the vast empire might break up some, especially the parts in the far East. I was thinking about the British Empire, which was even bigger, and held together pretty well for a long time. But the British had the advantage of "modern technology" like railroads, steam ships and the telegraph.

Vicki, I also thought about some “what ifs”. I wondered if Alexander would have kept his empire together especially if he had decided to stop his conquests and just rule from Babylon. Conversely, would Perdiccas been in a stronger position if he had convinced the generals to take the Arabian peninsula and then driven across North Africa?

Vicki wrote: "I thought the contrast in the opening sentences of Chapter 3 and Chapter 4 was quite interesting.

Chapter 3: "News of Alexander's death took several weeks to reach the cities of European Greece."
..."

Indeed they are! I think that's a consequence of the vastly different organizations they represent. The Persian Empire was one vast state with an administration in need to keep in touch quickly and effectively with its remote regions. It was of paramount importance to develop and maintain such a service.
On the other hand European Greece was a collection of small kingdoms and city-states more often than not hostile to each other. There was no interest in such a service, useful as it might seem to us in retrospect.

Michael wrote: "The Persian Empire was one vast state with an administration in need to keep in touch quickly and effectively with its remote regions..."

An interesting point, Michael. So maybe there was an existing bureaucracy to handle such tasks, which the Greek cities lacked.

Chapter Four


Alexander the Great coin

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Why did Ptolemy help the Cyrenaeans defeat Thibron’s mercenaries? He could have just used his soldiers to defend Egypt instead of sending them to the far-away city of Cyrene.

2. Was the image of Alexander on coins that big a propaganda tool? You wouldn’t think people would pay that much attention to the images on coins.

Vicki wrote: "Chapter Four


Alexander the Great coin

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Why did Ptolemy help the Cyrenaeans defeat Thibron’s mercenaries? He could have just used his soldiers to defend Egypt ..."

Regarding question 2, you might be right. I don't how much attention people paid to the images on their coins in that era. I think this was also fairly new at the time; in Greece, coins would usually show portraits of the gods or mythical heroes (this is what Philip II did) Maybe Alexander intended these portraits to also represent himself, but we don't know for sure.

Also, Alexander's successors would continue to issue coins with Alexander's face; apparently, by then these coins had a certain prestige. No doubt it was also a tool to strengthen their own claims as Alexander's heir.

When I first read that section of the book, I thought it said that Alexander invented coins. Not true, but it got me to wondering when coins were invented - apparently around the 6th century BCE. I'll have to put up a glossary entry for coins, I find it really interesting. What did people use before then? They must have just used barter, I guess.

1. Why did Ptolemy help the Cyrenaeans defeat Thibron’s mercenaries? He could have just used his soldiers to defend Egypt instead of sending them to the far-away city of Cyrene.

I think it was a political as well as a military decision. In helping Cyrene he would get a useful ally or even a protectorate. Military speaking it would certainly seem better to help neutralize a potential threat far from the homeland than waiting for the threat to reach his borders. In the event of a defeat away from home there would have been time to organize the kingdom's defenses and raise a defensive force, which would be impossible if the battle happened in Egypt itself. Also I think that as Alexander's man, Ptolemy wouldn't opt for a passive defense. I think getting the war to your enemies was the prevalent dogma of the era.

2. Was the image of Alexander on coins that big a propaganda tool? You wouldn’t think people would pay that much attention to the images on coins.

I think it was! During ancient times (up to the middle ages if I am not mistaken) there were no images of rulers available besides statues and coins. The moment there was a transition from city-states and small kingdoms where the subjects had a chance to see their rulers in person to the vast kingdoms and empires it was necessary for the image of the ruler to be projected.
Again this is something Alexander copied from the Persians as their coins had an image of the king.

Thanks for your comments, Michael. I guess Ptolemy was a better strategic thinker than I am (not a very high bar). It will be interesting to see his progress through the rest of the book.

I like your thought about subjects in small kingdoms and city-states being able to see their rulers and not needing to be reminded by everyday items like coins.

I hope everyone knows that you don't need to limit your comments to the topics I have posted. Please let us know your thoughts about anything that interested you in the reading.

Before we leave chapter 3, a couple of comments.
1. I think Romm did a good job of making what’s happening in the 4 corners of the empire understandable. I think I understand what’s going on everywhere, but am most interested in the Antipater, Craterus, Antigonus one-eye and Eumenes storyline.
2. Antipater OFFERED his most desirable daughter to Craterus as part of his plea for help. Perdiccas and Ptolemy had to ask for the other 2 daughters. Antipater was not asking for anything that we know of when he agreed.
3. I was impressed by how Alexander treated the royal Persian women, and by how he instructed troops not to take their Persian wives home with them. That’s a level of social awareness that I hadn’t given him credit for. I really need to read an Alexander bio.
4. I still have in the back of my mind that Perdiccas would have been better off if he had continued Alexander’s plans for further conquests. The troops might have balked and it might not have been successful in the long run, but I assume the route Perdiccas did take doesn’t end well for him.

Oops. I meant chapter 4. Sorry.

Bill wrote: "I really need to read an Alexander bio...."

Bill, check out the list of Alexander biographies Jerome listed, on our bibliography thread.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bill wrote: "4. I still have in the back of my mind that Perdiccas would have been better off if he had continued Alexander’s plans for further conquests. The troops might have balked and it might not have been successful in the long run, but I assume the route Perdiccas did take doesn’t end well for him...."

Interesting thought, Bill. If he had gone on to try to defeat the Arabs he might have gained some fame. At least they weren't as far off as India.

Vicki wrote: "Bill wrote: "I really need to read an Alexander bio...."

Bill, check out the list of Alexander biographies Jerome listed, on our bibliography thread.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"
Thanks for the link and the list. Think it will be Fox or Green.

On page 123 of the paperback edition the author says that Eudamus fled west and "took with him a herd of war elephants he had acquired after killing the raja Porus.." I was fascinated by the idea of war elephants, which Romm calls "the heavy weaponry"the Macedonians needed. I found a book about them but haven't read it. I'll put it in the Bibliography as well.
by John M. Kistler (no photo)

Bill wrote: "Before we leave chapter 3, a couple of comments.
1. I think Romm did a good job of making what’s happening in the 4 corners of the empire understandable. I think I understand what’s going on every..."

Nice comments Bill, certainly point 4 is worth consideration!

when I first started this chapter, about the fire beacons, I immediately had visions of the movie Lord of the Rings, where Gandalf sent a Hobbit to light a beacon on fire, although it sounds like the Persians had a bit more sophisticated fire beacon system than the Gondor/Rohan (theirs was more, ooh, I see a beacon on fire, I'll light my beacon)...

Marc wrote: "when I first started this chapter, about the fire beacons, I immediately had visions of the movie Lord of the Rings, where Gandalf sent a Hobbit to light a beacon on fire, although it sounds like t..."

The first such simple system is mentioned by Homer in the Iliad.

All, when you complete reading and posting up through page 109 and comment about anything you want to discuss about Chapter 4. Resistance, Rebellion, Reconquest, please go to the Week Five thread.

Here is the link to the Week Five thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...