SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I'm still aware we're the SFF group, but since the mystery recs thread was a success, I might as well try to see what you can come up with for romance!

So, I never really read pure romance before 2020. I've been trying things other people rave about, and I don't seem to like any of it. There's always something wrong, and I'm annoyed, and I have no idea if I hate romance (books), or if I'm just looking at the wrong ones. I've finally learned not to trust recs from people who enjoy the books that annoy me, but I have no idea where to look next! I know there are tons of tropes and subgenres in romance, but I don't know what I like! I'll try to tell you what I do know, but it's not a lot.

First of all, fictionally I'm pan-romantic and pansexual, so all genders and groupings welcome. I do not like explicit sex scenes though, although they will not make me stop reading, but they'll probably annoy me. Innuendo is fine, heavy flirting is fine, non-explicit sex scenes are fine, but once we cross into things going into other things, I'll probably be turned off, literally and figuratively. (I'm not going to tell you about my sexual preferences, but they don't seem to match what I've been reading.)

I especially don't like erotic scifi! (Polaris Rising, Fluency, The 5th Gender)

I don't seem to like extremely contemporary romance, with tons of social media in the center of the story (The Right Swipe, Get a Life, Chloe Brown, although I didn't hate that aspect in A Duke by Default)

I don't love royalty/celeb stuff either (A Princess in Theory, Red, White & Royal Blue)

I'm not super into your basic (white) man and woman falling in love while hating each other and doing your basic (white) man and woman things (Beach Read, The Unhoneymooners)

I do not like dickish characters (Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors), not even if they're a gender-bent Indian Mr. Darcy.

I do seem to enjoy contemporary romance by/about Asian authors/characters more (The Kiss Quotient, but less sex please), although dickish characters (Last Tang Standing) will probably ruin those for me, and I like Alyssa Cole's writing enough that I read several books by her, even though they had both royalty and tons of social media madness.

The best romance I've read in 2020 (ever?) was Boyfriend Material, which let me down in other ways, which are not important here. I loved most of it, and was going to read more by Hall, but right now I'm not sure if I will. I probably will, because some of his other stuff is on Storytel, so I don't need to buy it. The Affair of the Mysterious Letter is everywhere I look, and I would read it if I could get my hands on it for free, but because it's Sherlock, which I'm lukewarm about, and he has recently made me upset, I'm not going to throw money at it just yet.

I'm also interested in the series that starts with Wolfsong, because I really enjoyed The House in the Cerulean Sea, but since only the third book is on Storytel, and it's werewolves, I'll probably wait to see if they get the rest of the series, instead of buying it.

Oh yeah, I am not into shifters, unless they're by Gail Carriger and their names are (view spoiler)[ Biffy and Lyall <3 (hide spoiler)]. Also not into any other paranormal stuff.

I'm not into teenagers falling in love for the first time, and older people in love warm my cold, spinsterish heart (Swordheart, The Care and Feeding of Waspish Widows)

What does this all mean? I have no idea! The only thing I can say for sure is that I really enjoy romance as a subplot in fantasy books (Luck in the Shadows, Gail Carriger, T. Kingfisher), but I don't think contemporary romance is enough for me? There needs to be a different main plot?

I'm pretty sure I like situations where everyone is on equal footing, people who end up in healthy, working relationships, and we get to see them be together, not just fall in love. I need to be able to like all people involved in the relationships, if not as a person, then at least as a fictional character. They don't all have to be cuddlemuffins, just not outright assholes. (Brooding self-centered pretty boys (Howl's Moving Castle) aren't assholes, they're heart candy.) I also think I prefer people to be attracted to non-bodily characteristics first, so not something where the dude's ass is mentioned two hundred times before we learn his name.

Oh, and if the love interest is a man, no buffed up alpha fuckers, please! Give me a Lyall/professor over a gym enthusiast laird any day! I guess that's also a no to sports and Highland romances. Same goes for when the love interest is a woman, a frumpy middle-aged mom over the confident model type, please. This doesn't mean that the protag can't find people attractive, just that if I have to read another seventy pages about someone's abs/tits/buns/biceps/hair/etc. I'm going to frown. I also don't think I ever need to read "climb him like a tree" again, I'm all set for life!

If you can immediately think of something you think I'd like, great, tell me! But if not, and I completely understand, can you recommend a resource where I could maybe try to find something I like? The people I follow seem to have a very different taste in romance than I do, so I'll take recs for romance reviewers, too!

If you rec something and I'm all "yuck I hate that!" I'm sorry in advance! There are so many things I dislike I'm probably forgetting to mention half of them. I mean, I'm single for a reason! :D (Make that many reasons.)

There are also lots of things I love, and I want to read about people being in love and happy and feeling some of that myself, I just need to find the right style of romance that works for me!

Whew! I'm exhausted, thanks for tolerating my rant disguised as a plea for recs!

edit: Why didn't anyone tell me there was a typo! :o

I enjoyed that post quite immensely, especially this part:

....if I have to read another seventy pages about someone's abs/tits/buns/biceps/hair/etc. I'm going to frown. I also don't think I ever need to read "climb him like a tree" again, I'm all set for life!

PS: Sorry I could not help you, Anna, my romance mileage is pathetic. I'll be looking at this thread for recs too.

Haha, well I guess that's something positive about this frustrating project! :D

I was going to recommend Outlander by Diana Gabaldon but the more I think about it the less I think that would be something you’d enjoy.

Susana Kearsley writes great non explicit (fade to black) historical romance. I read The Winter Sea and very much enjoyed that.

I’ll have to keep mulling this over. One of my favorite “romances” where romance is not the main plot is the Fever series by Karen Marie Moning (where there is no sex for at least 3/4 books). But Barrons is pretty much the definition of an Alpha-Male Dickish character. It would take a 4/5 book commitment to find out he’s not really that bad, just Uber focused on survival... sort of.. lol.

Anna is a happily ever after a must?

Also I scrolled through and found another you might enjoy: The Fountains of Silence by Ruta Sepetys.

I also liked Colleen Hoover’s November 9 but it’s contemporary.

Sorry I deleted my previous comment, saw that you didn't like shifters. Does that mean you don't like urban fantasies or paranormal romances as well?

I recently read The Vintner's Luck a M/M historical romance that was thought provoking and light on smexy scenes.

Sarah wrote: "Anna is a happily ever after a must?"

I don't know, I'm open to find out? :D

I've watched Outlander the show, and my fave things are: the scenery and the music XD (edit: Oh, and Murtagh!)

Lisa wrote: "Sorry I saw that you didn't like shifters, (deleted my previous comment) but are urban fantasies or paranormal romances off the table as well?"

I tend to not like urban fantasy, PNR, shifters, anything contemporary (in fantasy), so I probably wouldn't gravitate towards those things in romance either?

Knox is someone I've been wanting to try (outside of romance) so I'll definitely take a look at that!

I have no recs, cause this is a runaway genre for me, but your initial post made my day!

Sarah wrote: "Also I scrolled through and found another you might enjoy: The Fountains of Silence by Ruta Sepetys."

Storytel has Las fuentes del silencio, is now the time to see if I can understand more than 2% of 15 hours of Spanish audio? :D (The answer is no.)

Everyone keeps mentioning Colleen Hoover with A Tone, like I should know what that means, and it's made me think I should stay away. But November 9 is the only one of Sarah's recs that is on Storytel, so onto the shelf it went :) The very least I'll maybe finally know what "it's a *Colleen Hoover*" means.

Gabi wrote: "I have no recs, cause this is a runaway genre for me, but your initial post made my day!"

lol, happy to make other people happy with my unhappiness in search of happiness ever after! ^_^

I have no idea what “it’s a Colleen Hoover” could mean lol. It’s a little angsty, but I feel like YA stuff is angsty anyway.

I’ll be honest and say it’s the only one I read because contemporary stuff just isn’t my favorite but it was good.

It’s a bummer about Fountains of Silence because that really was a good one and I think avoids most of what you described above.

I can still find it! It's just easier to jump on the ones that I already have. And being honest, I go through two books some days, so I can't buy them all, and the majority has to come from Storytel or library.

I made a list and then deleted it. Heh

The only Colleen Hoover I read was Slammed. It was good! It was on Audible Escape and turned out to be much better than I thought it would. I was all set to read the rest of the series but I decided to leave my happy glow with Slammed. Totally works as a standalone.

Heidi's Guide to Four Letter Words is on Audible Escape & hilarious. You can always speed up the sex scenes. That always makes me laugh. There shouldn't be that many in the story. Part of the fun is the book making fun of bad sex scenes.

Flawed #1 is on KU. It has dark themes but a different kind of romance and showcasing Online Abuse, Gamer culture, etc. I've read the whole series and the first book was one of the best in the batch.

The Watchmaker of Filigree Street #1 & The Lost Future of Pepperharrow #2 - Light romance element & lots of atmosphere + cool characters.

The Philosopher's Flight #1 - Neat alternative history story with alchemy.

There are a million Colleen Hoovers on Storytel, so if I like the first one, I'll be set for a while :D

I keep seeing Watchmaker and being slightly interested, so maybe I'll have to take a proper look!

Natasha Pulley has a quirky writing style. She's fun. Some of the things she does is rather sneaky and makes me grin or groan when I figure it out. The books are interesting take of alternative history with a smidgen of magic. Or is it science? Bwahhah

Slammed was great because I didn't know what I was getting into. I thought it was about music. It's not. It's about poetry slams. The narrator did a great job with it too! Great cadence & flow for that part and I think of reciting/acting poetry to be a different verbal skill set.

OK, fun, romance and science fantasy? Sold.

I also liked Watchmaker - but the romance is very light. It is a M/M couple though so that’s refreshing.

Anna wrote: "I'm still aware we're the SFF group, but since the mystery recs thread was a success, I might as well try to see what you can come up with for romance!

So, I never really read pure romance before ..."

I don't really do romance either, but one of the most entertaining 'was actually a romance but I didn't realise it straight away' books I've read was Dear Beneficiary by Janet Kelly.

I truly enjoyed this take on the Nigerian email scam, involving an older woman.

That sounds like a heap of fun! :D

I do like some of the books that annoy you, but I know our taste overlaps in other things, so I will attempt some recs.

Warning on Wolfsong: there are some really wonderful parts of it, but it gets very angsty and there are aspects of the romance ((view spoiler)[age gap starting from a very young age, fated mates, heavy codependency (hide spoiler)]) that I found uncomfortable.

In SFF, Sorcerer to the Crown is funny and sweet. I like the romances in Melissa Scott's Astreiant, Roads of Heaven, and Ned Mathey series, and to my recollection they are all low to no on-page sex. Austin Chant also has a couple interesting SFF romances. Oh! Also Heather Rose Jones's Alpennia books might be up your alley - no on-page sex, cool historical fantasy magic/world-building. And The Cybernetic Tea Shop is an asexual romance including an endearing AI.

A couple more traditional romance authors I really like that came to mind from the others you like are Courtney Milan and K.J. Charles. Have you tried either of them? I do also like Alexis Hall, if you want some recs there at some point, although Mysterious Letter isn't romance. (And I'm curious now what annoyed you about Boyfriend Material - I haven't read it yet.)

How did you feel about (have you read) This Is How You Lose the Time War? And you've read Witchmark, right?

I *love* Sorcerer to the Crown, but that's because my love for Zen Cho will not allow me to dislike anything she touches. The romance was fine, but it didn't touch my heart or make it flutter. I'm more into the other couple, who we see more of in the sequel, which is by far lovelier than the first! <3

I did read Time War, and I'm weird in that I enjoyed it while I was listening to my fave EWZ read it to me, but I don't really have feelings about it afterwards.

Is Wolfsong along the lines of Twilight in that spoilery aspect, is it that bad? If you don't know what I'm talking about, (view spoiler)[ a man imprints on a BABY. (hide spoiler)]

I've read the first Magpie Lord by KJC, and there was nothing I could point to that was wrong, it just didn't work for me.

I've read Chant, the Peter Pan one, I didn't think to look if he has others out!

I read Astreiant, and it was kinda boring to me, but that could be because I was expecting something different? I didn't dislike it, it was just lukewarmish.

I've also read Tea Shop, and it was OK I think, but that was some years ago now, so I might not remember.

Also yes Witchmark and sequel.

So that leaves Milan (know of her, haven't looked into) and Jones, both of whom I'll take a browse through!

Boyfriend Material has a character trait that I identify with, and I don't agree with how it was portrayed. It's something other people probably won't even notice, so I won't talk about it to draw attention to it. In another book it wouldn't have bothered me maybe, but I was loving it so much that it felt like a slap in the face.

Oh god I need to respond to this when I’m on a computer tomorrow, but for now, I highly recommend Watchmaker as mentioned by others!!!

Oh and about the books that annoy me, I don't hate everything about them, but it seems like, for me, a romance book can't have anything I strongly dislike, or it'll ruin the happy. I know that's almost impossible, I have tiny problems even with my favorite books. So most of the ones I've listed I've still enjoyed to some degree, and don't regret reading. I'm just thinking that I have to stop listening to recs by people who love the things that annoy me, because that doesn't make any sense!

Can't wait to see what you bring to the table, Dawn! :D

Should have figured you'd have read a lot of the same things as me!

No, Wolfsong isn't nearly so bad as Twilight - I think they are (view spoiler)[10 and 16 when they are first paired, and something like 16 and 22 when anything happens. (hide spoiler)]

If Astreiant wasn't a winner, I would recommend Five-Twelfths of Heaven for Melissa Scott - this one is sci-fi with a very creative take on spaceflight (involving music!) and the central romance is a triad (that part is pretty secondary, though).

I'm not a huge fan of Magpie Lord, either, but she has other books that are much better. Band Sinister is really lovely historical romance, if you're even in the mood to try her work again.

Hither, Page is historical (post-WWI) and both a romance and a (cozy) mystery. I like the author quite a bit in general.

Have you read Silver in the Wood yet?

Silver is the first thing I'll read once the sequel drops! I've been waiting to binge both together.

Hither, Page is something I've heard good things about, but so many other Sebastians are on Storytel, that I decided I'd try them first. I listened to A Little Light Mischief, maybe two weeks ago, and don't remember anything about it, so it didn't leave a very strong impression :D I'm willing to try Page though, but I'll have to see if my library has it.

Band Sinister is on Storytel and on my shelf!

I liked the one other Scott I've read (Shadow Man, which wasn't perfect but I enjoyed it more than others did), so I'll gladly try more scifi by her.

Thanks about clarifying about Wolfsong. That doesn't sound *too* bad!

Alright I didn’t mean to say anything yet because I mostly agree with all you say, except I do like explicit sex, when I’m looking for it XD

Band Sinister is great, I’m a huge fan of K. J. Charles, but as you’re not a fan of explicit sex, I hesitated to recommend her. She writes different dynamics, though. Magpie Lord is very dom/sub (but totally safe and negociated) but lots of other of her M/M supernatural/historical/mystery/crime aren’t. But the common demomitator is, there is a case to be solved, there’s humor, and usually two characters with tension for whatever reason, workwise or personal, will eventually end up together. She is imo an exceptional writer, ahe has historical knowledge, she’s fun, the tension is strong and the sex is fun *and* hot, and the characters are complicated and likable. She knows how to weave an intricate plot together and she writes funny dialogue. Everything I’d want, if I ever wanted romance to enter into it. She’s my go-to for comfort romance/porn because she does it well.

(And for reference, Red, White & Royal Blue was nauseatingly sachharine and unrealistic, K. J. Charles doesn’t write anything like that!)

I've also read The Henchmen of Zenda by KJC, which was OK I think, but I liked the original (The Prisoner of Zenda) much better, imagining what it would be like rewritten by KJC :D So yes, I'm totally up for trying something else, I just thought everyone agreed that the Magpie thing was the best, so since I didn't like it, I kinda gave up? But OK, I'll give Sinister a try!

(RedWhiteRoyalBlue has the worst line in literary history. Allison had to listen to me rant about it for a week I think. (view spoiler)[ hashtag vacation nips (hide spoiler)] :S :S :S)

Ooooh I had no idea The Prisoner of Xenda existed, so thanks for that mention!

Magpie is great if you like BDSM elements but if you don’t, then that’s probably a pass XD But yes, her repetoir is huge, some of her other worms weren’t so much for me, so maybe they’d be for you? She also writes F/F though I’ve not read any of it. I’m generally enjoying all of her work so I’ll go through it all eventually.

Oh pleeeease have Allison read Red, White & Royal Blue! Honestly I don’t know why I gave it 3 stars, I was wholly annoyed with it throughout! I think I need to lower my rating XD

I rated RW&RB one star upon finishing, then begrudglingly changed it to two stars a few days later :D Everyone in the universe loved it, which made me seriously question who I was taking recs from.

Boyfriend Material (probably too sappy and non-erotic for you, but on Storytel) was for me what that seems to have been for others?

You hear that Allison, you have to read the book that made me scream (view spoiler)[ hashtag vacation nips (hide spoiler)] at you for days! XD You can't reject a member request! :P

I don't read a lot of romance, but here are a few suggestions. (I compared books with you and we seem to agree on the few that we've both read)

Since you have a historical on your list I'll suggest My Darling Duke, it's white M/F but with disability rep on the M side (surprise) and the author is African American. I remember minimal sex and towards the end.

Contemporary romance Ayesha at LastM/F Muslimlove story so no sex :).

Urban Fantasy which I think you don't care for but... Illona Andrews maybe her The Edge series starting with On the Edge, the other series have shifters, this one not so much. Andrews is always a slow burn and minimal on the page.

Ooh, I've never heard of Reid and Jalaluddin, I'll look into those for sure!

edit: Reid is on Storytel, so it's in the queue now!

Wait what??

Allison wrote: "Wait what??"

Ya gotta read Red, White & Royal Blue. LoL

Yup, and review it extra thoroughly!

Anna wrote: "... I'm not into teenagers falling in love for the first time, and older people in love warm my cold, spinsterish heart (Swordheart, The Care and Feeding of Waspish Widows)..."

A scan of what I've read for the last decade confirms to me that I don't read anything that's even adjacent to romance. So I'm going to be useless when it comes to recommendations. I did want to say, though, that this post was one of the most enjoyable things I've read all week. Thanks.

Oh - and this part tells me that I at least need to move Swordheart up in my TBR list.

What, I thought you'd read all of T. Kingfisher already?! How rude to have one unread! :o

Glad to contribute to everyone's happiness in some way!

you've doubled my misery though. don't make me read a kissing book!

*I* am not making you do anything! 😇

(Is this dubcon book reccing?)

One of my favorite romances, not because it's a romance but due to its writing style, is Love in the Time of Cholera. That said, I'm always looking for historical fiction with a touch of romance in it. I'm planning to read Shades of Milk and Honey anytime soon. Another book I was recommended as a nice mix of sci-fi and romance was Girl Under Glass (The Glass and Iron Series Book 1) by Monica Enderle Pierce.

Yes, that MRK series is on my TBR! I didn't even think it's romance. I read Cholera as a kid, loved it, haven't reread it since but have been thinking about it.

I just finished reading the Gemma Doyle series A Great and Terrible Beauty by Libba Bray that has some romances in it, tough it has all the feels too.

I definitely second Hither, Page, I loved that one! And this may belong in the mystery thread, lol, but we are just finishing up the first Amelia Peabody mystery by Elizabeth Peters. Have you read anything by her? She also has a bunch of stand-alone romances that are fade-to-black that I still love, even though they are older. Even my hubby gets a kick out of them. Have you looked at anything by A.H. Lee? I recently read the Knight and the Necromancer series and really enjoyed it. First book is The Capital.

Hmmmm now that I think about it AH Lee may have more sex than you like ... I was happy because there wasn't that much, but one of her recent newsletters said there were I think five scenes in the first book. I thought they were appropriate etc, but ymmv. :)

I feel like I’ve seen someone talk about Peabody, but I haven’t read them or added to my TBR. Based on the titles alone they sound like something I’d enjoy, so I’ll take a look tomorrow! And the others, too!

Just getting ready to sleep, and decided that a reread of Boyfriend Material is what I need 😄

Yep, her books definitely have the flavor of her titles, lol. Some hand-wringing drama but the main character abhors it, so they can be a fun ride. :)

Thank you, Anna, for that very entertaining first post!😘

Have you read anything by Catherine Asaro? She’s an SF writer (won the (formerly known as )Tiptree award for the Compass Rose. There is always a romantic element in her books. She calls her books science Fiction Romance and is annoyed that the Romance bit is left off.

I finally read what has been happening over here. And I think I have a solution to this nonsense about me having to read a romance novel, which I will post elsewhere so as not to derail this.

Idk how many times I say it, but ANNA KETTUNEN (not her real last name, except in my head). READ Tripping Over You AND Check, Please! Book 1: # Hockey.

They are comics, so they're quick. TOY is written and drawn by a queer couple and is some really wholesome younger love. You CAN see the rated-x stuff, but the content available both online and I believe in the main story in the volumes is PG-13.

Check Please...hear me out. YES it's sports. YES there are dudebros. BUT. It's written by a Black woman, the dudebros are super supportive (definitely the "close your eyes bro, what do you see?"
"Nothing, bro."
"Bro, that's my life without you bro" type bros), MC is gay, a rascally sportser, and also a master baker! Perhaps a liiittle on the very contemporary side, but I thought it was endearing, and you know how much I despise people falling in love. In books.

Wolfsong is one of my new favorite books. (view spoiler)[The fated romance is entirely on the side of the younger boy. The older one considers him a "best friend" but also sees him as a child. This doesn't change until the younger one is 17 and then the older boy is horrified by his own feelings because of the age thing. It begins to develop in a very sweet way because of the years of friendship and platonic caring. There is one kiss and then they're separated for 3 years. (hide spoiler)] There are a couple of fairly graphic sex scenes near the end, but it doesn't have any of the typical shapeshifter tropes. No overbearing alpha male as the romantic lead, no god-like powers, they look like ordinary (not impossibly beautiful) people, and the pack is a found family.

If you can deal with approximately that amount of sex in order to get very original fantasy mythology and some great characters then I recommend Blue on Black and Wicked Gentlemen.

Oh, graphic novels, yes, how about The Less Than Epic Adventures of TJ and Amal. A bit of fairly explicit sex, but the characters are not only adorable, but they felt very real to me, complex like real ppl.

edit - I think I chose the wrong link. I loved the omnibus.