Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

any ideas

Donna, what are you thinking?

The geomagnetic pole rotates about a different point on the Earth's surface over centuries. Occasionally, the whole pole shifts polarity so our compasses won't be any use. Not that I'm worried as everything important nowadays uses GPS tracking! This is well-known physics due to the molten Earth's core which generates the magnetic field.

The actual poles, (90 deg. latitude) are fixed, but like a spinning top (same dynamics) the axis points to a slightly different point in space. It adjusts the seasons and climate slightly over 23k years. Again, all this is well-known and rigorous physics. Wikipedia covers this sort of material very well.

John wrote: "Donna, what are you thinking? ..."

John, what are you thinking? Ha!

I know nothing about this subject although I've certainly heard of the pole shift conspiracy theory. So I believe Donna may have been getting at this speculative pole shift theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_shi...

That's right! I am concerned about global cataclysm caused by pole shift. I've read about pulses radiating out from the center of the galaxy every 13,000 years, a dwarf star with a small cluster of planets that intersects our earths ecliptic every 3600 years, global volcanic activity ramping up, deep underground survival shelters being built globally and I'm wondering ... usually where there is smoke there is fire ... there are a lot of people with what they believe is good evidence that there is cause for concern and preparation, and evidence of such things occurring in the past. I just wanted to start an across the board discussion on the topic and see what ideas people have that they wanted to share.

Donna,

Ah well! James has pointed me to the Wikipedia article. As usual Wikipedia is fairly considered in its comments. The thing it points out (indirectly) is that there is a mathematical principle of conservation of angular momentum. This is the angular version of the conservation of linear momentum, although the word linear is usually left off. The point is that to create a change in linear momentum of an object you have to exchange momentum with another object, i.e. you have to have a collision or produce some other comparable force. That's simple dynamics of Newton. Angular momentum is similar: you have to exert a torque on the Earth's axis. [Torque is the product of force and distance from the axis, rather like when you open a screw cap bottle you need to twist it or exert a high torque]. The moon and sun do this over millennia, amounting to a 23000 year oscillation in the axis tilt. The axis changes by a few degrees from something like 22 to 24. It is currently about 23 and this angle controls our seasons.

There may be a lot of duff literature out there which doesn't respect scientific understanding, but if the sun and moon can't do anything much to the Earth except over 23k years, anything near the centre of the galaxy can't do anything either. The presumed black hole at the centre of the galaxy is just too far away to provide anything but a very weak gravitational force, at the top of my head about 10 billion times smaller than Earth's gravity. To exert a torque on the axis there has to be a difference in gravitational force across the diameter of the Earth. Mathematically, this is proportional to the mass of the object and inversely proportional to the distance cubed. In other words if the distance increases by a factor of 10, the torque drops by a factor of 1000! So, even though the mass of the black hole at the centre of the galaxy is considerably larger than the moon, the distance factor is overwhelming.

A first order estimate would be to take the ratio of gravitational forces mentioned above -- 10 billion and multiply by the ratio of the distance to the galactic centre to the distance to the moon. There is a quick way of getting this, as it takes light about a second to get to the moon. So the ratio is the number of seconds in 30,000 years as the centre is 30,000 light years away. So the gravitational torque on the Earth is a factor 10^10 x 30,000 x 365 x 86400 or about 10^20 times too small to do anything significant.

I could do a back of the envelope calculation to get a better grip on the numbers, but there seems to be a lot of conspiracy theorists around that wouldn't believe me whatever I found! You may rest soundly in your sleep knowing that fiction is just for entertainment.

Thank you John!

Edward, I have no idea what you mean by that (the bit before the schooling....).

John wrote: "Edward, I have no idea what you mean by that (the bit before the schooling....)."

John, since you are from the UK you may need some translation help here. Like Edward, I am also a New Jersey native, so I'll give you a quick translation of Edward's comments in post 7 and 9. In brief:

"Fuck you and the high horse you rode in on!"

I'm not sure why Edward has chosen to attack you like this, but Jersey boys have been known to be unpredictable, especially in verbal battles....

Jim,
Thanks for the translation. To think that I spent almost 10 years in Princeton, NJ!

John wrote: "Jim,
Thanks for the translation. To think that I spent almost 10 years in Princeton, NJ!"

Yea, I think it's something you have to be born into... LOL!

Since we're on the topic of Pole Shift, does anyone know how this natural phenomenon can be considered a conspiracy?

Krishna wrote: "Maybe alien conspiracy"

mais oui, bien sûr!

Krishna wrote: "What?"

Pardon, "but yes, of course!"*



(*practicing my French)

Jim wrote: "John, since you are from the UK you may need some translation help here. Like Edward, I am also a New Jersey native, so I'll give you a quick translation of Edward's comments in post 7 and 9. In brief:

"Fuck you and the high horse you rode in on!"

I'm not sure why Edward has chosen to attack you like this, but Jersey boys have been known to be unpredictable, especially in verbal battles....
..."

Man, this is starting to get brutal!
And I thought we Kiwis and Aussies Down Under were blunt speakers who don't mince words...But it seems you Jersey Boys are giving us a run for our money.

Personally, I think this entire thread is pretty hilarious...Starting with the apparently tinfoil hat-style conspiracy theory (which could be true for all I know) of Poles shifting or reversing...John throwing in scientific equations which are like reading a whole other language...Edward's explosive and ambiguous reply and John's terse counter and then Jim pretending to act like a peace maker while secretly stirring the pot further...And then Krishna brings aliens into the equation and out of the blue with no clear explanation and Jim replies in French for no apparent reason!

It's all comedic gold I say!

(And yes, I am trying to stir the pot further as well...)

It feels like I've walked into a pub brawl.

I side mostly with the Brit corner in this one. Pole shift is one of those things that science has done a good job of explaining. It's difficult to wring a conspiracy out of it and, in any case, even if we were around to see the next one it would be less of a big deal for humans than it would be for the species of migratory birds, whales and other animals that rely instinctively on the Earth's magnetic field for navigation. Magnetic North changes by about 11' each year presently and we just adjust our bearings to compensate - as any scout knows.

I question one of your comments, John - why would compasses be no use after a pole shift? Wouldn't they just point to the relocated magnetic North?

Cool fact - the Vikings used to believe that Polaris, the North star, had magical properties that drew their early lodestone/iron compass needles towards it : http://www.earldeblonville.com/books/...

Now I'll go and down 10 pints and wait for the fight to kick off.

Krishna's convinced me. I'm going with aliens too.

Well there is that, planet x - the planet of the crossing, otherwise called Nibiru - home of the Anunnaki? Again lots of carved in stone stories about this. I am just a child of the universe who is trying to discover the truth thru all it's unraveling layers. I don't pretend to really KNOW anything to much about all of this, but I'm searching and listening.

Is there not tropical vegetation under Antarctica's ice?

"John - why would compasses be no use after a pole shift? Wouldn't they just point to the relocated magnetic North?"

We still seem to be talking about two different things here as I pointed out in my first comment, which seems a very long time ago now! A pole (axis) shift is virtually impossible because of the enormous angular momentum of the Earth.

Magnetic shifts have occurred in the past about once every 10,000 years I think. In fact it can be used for archaeological dating. however, the shift is not instant it takes place over a period of 100 years or so. So for that period the likelihood, if I understand the physics correctly is that the field changes rather like a random walk, so the magnetic pole will oscillate about a bit before settling on its new location. In any case we are using northern hemisphere thinking here. The south magnetic pole is something like latitude 70 degrees so a compass is less useful in the South, especially if you happen to be in Antarctica at the time!

Well I believe that is the old theory but how does that explain animals with tropical vegetation in their systems found flash frozen in our harshest cold areas of the planet.

I was referring to this statement in your first post:

"The geomagnetic pole rotates about a different point on the Earth's surface over centuries. Occasionally, the whole pole shifts polarity so our compasses won't be any use."

As you are talking about the magnetic pole - the question still stands, does it not?

Luke,
Yes, the polarity of the magnetic pole changes, which no doubt will interfere with animals that navigate using magnetic fields. Otherwise it won't make any difference to the climate or anything, as the field is rather weak. The magnetic field used in a hospital MRI scanner is typically 20,000 times stronger.

I gather (now) that when many people refer to polar shift the talk of the rotation axis of the Earth which is next to impossible to change as I have explained (apparently ad nauseam to those who don't understand high school maths).

To Donna, I can't comment on why animals have been found with tropical plants in their system, without actual data, as it's not my field. Don't forget though that many millennia ago, Antarctica was part of the broader landmass called Gondwanaland or something. Antarctica broke off and migrated to the pole by plate tectonics. It takes tens of millennia, but it works.

John wrote: "Luke,
Yes, the polarity of the magnetic pole changes, which no doubt will interfere with animals that navigate using magnetic fields..."

And, so, our compasses won't be useless then; they'll just point in the opposite direction.

A common technique in the dating of some types of rock involves inspection of the orientation of small magnetic components embedded within them. As the changing position of the magnetic poles through geological history is well understood, the orientation at the time the rock solidified can be used to infer an age.

Krishna wrote: "But falling tree makes noise"

There is a Far Side cartoon that goes:

"If a tree falls in the forest, and hits a mime, does anyone care?"

For "mime", I suppose anyone can substitute the object of their umbrage (tree pun intended!).

It's a famous paradox that you inadvertently made reference to earlier... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tre...

Krishna wrote: "OK so it's quantum mechanics!"

Exacto

Edward wrote: ""If a tree falls in the forest, and hits a mime, does anyone care?"

Do you mean "mime" or "mine?" Mime seems something of long ago. Mine seems now. Please correct or elaborate."

Definitely mime! :D

Edward wrote: My guess is that any shifting of the poles, no matter how un-precedented would be a gradual process. Humans would easily adapt; as that ability has led them to survive every other change thrown in the their face. If intelligence or love was required the race would long ago have been extinct.

It seems that we have survived as a species for a very long time, at least portions of the population have, and made any adjustments we were capable of making to survive whether harsh or kind. But ... all I'm thinking is that if instead of not believing that something is not possible simply because it is different from our defined reality we open our minds to discovering the truth no matter how many rabbit holes it leads us down, no matter how intellectual we may perceive ourselves to be, with the end result being knowledge to gather ourselves together in a support system to overcome the odds of individual survival. Instead of behaving in mass hysteria because we don't know what just came up behind us and reacting out violently like a drowning man, for knowledge and loving kindness could help us to transition to a better place instead of regression when catastrophe strikes.

This has to be the best thread ever. I mean, there's about 20 different conversations going on...almost none of which relate to the original post...I love it! Maybe I'm going crazy, but I just keep laughing out loud reading all the comments from meaning of life questions to mathematical equations to Zen philosophy and even Brits vs Americans!!

Keep it up guys! Like I said, it's comedic gold!

But to try my best to respond to the original post...Donna, I think your pole shift questions about vegetation may dovetail in with an urban legend surrounding American Air Force pilot Byrd who flew to Antarctica post WW2. He lead a strange mission there involving soviet, American and British service men - part of this mission is still Classified I think. Conspiracy theorists claim Byrd found a lot of vegetation the closer he got to the pole, some of which was supposedly tropical. There is a video on a YouTube of Byrd finding a warm water lake in Antarctica during the expedition, but maybe it was just thermal hot springs.

Now to take things off topic again: John you implied in an earlier post I never passed high school math. I would like to correct that: I never passed primary school (I think Americans call that elementary school) math. Actually, second thoughts, I think I failed that too. How about kindergarten? Does that count and will it allow me to debate with a Princeton scholar in future??

James wrote: "This has to be the best thread ever. I mean, there's about 20 different conversations going on...almost none of which relate to the original post...I love it! Maybe I'm going crazy, but I just keep..."

http://www.livescience.com/38652-what... here is an interesting site I found about a warm lake found under the Antarctic Ice.

Did a large group of submarines from Germany with a lot of scientists and higher ups go to Antarctica after WW2, and did the Nazi's already have anti-gravity technology, hence Byrds witnessed flying saucers there.

Even though I tend to use Wickipedia as a first stop for information simply because it usually is the first site that pops up, I do not consider it to be definitive as I feel the information is a bit whitewashed. I feel that they take the safe road to stay afloat.

I dislike the term conspiracy theorist because I feel the label discredits sincere thinking individuals and the information they have gathered. I feel it is a belittling term that attempts to discredit their information.

I think the comments are great!

From memory, Operation High Jump was the name of the mysterious multinational mission Byrd led. This was about 1947 or 1948, I seem to recall.

Edward wrote: "Jim wrote: "John wrote: "Edward, I have no idea what you mean by that (the bit before the schooling....)."

John, since you are from the UK you may need some translation help here. Like Edward, I a..."

Edward - Thanks for that vote of confidence...I think!

Yes I thought it was time I joined the fray. Need to give these Pommes and Jersey boys a run for their money.

Signed...A bewildered Colonial.

I think maybe this thread should be renamed Pole Shift (And the history of the world and the Universe)

Edward wrote: "Luke wrote: "Edward wrote: ""If a tree falls in the forest, and hits a mime, does anyone care?"

Do you mean "mime" or "mine?" Mime seems something of long ago. Mine seems now. Please correct or e..."

Nice. It's strange... as it was a cartoon, I never thought of actually trying to answer the question.

Never be any answer to the meaning of life question or to the Pole Shift, Ed? Or are they both one and the same? The more I read the comments in this thread I'm starting to think they must be! :)

has anyone seen these videos at http://poleshift.ning.com/ which seem to be fairly informative, and have got me wanting to hedge my bets by at least moving to a safer location, if there is one.

Luke,

As I have said before, our compasses will be useless or at least unreliable for a while. As the change in magnetic field takes place over a century or whatever, there will be that period of uncertainty before the compass point the opposite way. One day it will point to 70 deg., the next maybe 65, or you might have difficulty finding any magnetic field at all, so your compass will spin around. Does anybody still actually use a compass? Even you outdoor people? What do you do if you live in the Southern Hemisphere? Make corrections for the inaccuracy of geomagnetic south compared to true South?

Look at the problems in the Bermuda triangle, probably due to magnetic field fluctuations, or have I stirred up another conspiracy theory? Are their aliens in the Bermuda triangle, waiting to snap up all the boats and planes that cross the area? Ah, we can defeat these aliens nowadays with GPS tracking! That just uses some fundamental physics like general relativity and the constant speed of light as measured by all observers.

Hi,
1) I am thankful for statements about tropical vegetation in animal systems found flash frozen. After following the links, I arrive at the conclusion that the 'heavy snow' (perhaps the earths water ring...1874 Isaac N. Vail pamphlet The Earth's Annular System) caused the huge animals to freeze while eating their lunch during the weather changing, snowy conditions. Some good news for animals, the magnetic senses in animals may have compensation, or redundancy, in their biology to figure out their magnetic norths/souths (Navigating With A Built-In Compass,
1999 // Sharon Levy). Note that the magnetic poles reverse....not the poles/earth.
From the Nova video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJUTU...), a complete shift takes 1000+ years; if you do not have 1 hour to watch the video, start the video at the 30 minute mark.
Parts of the underground Atlantic Ocean are already pointing to magnetic south. The mystery is why the decrease in the magnetic field (eventual shift or re-reversal) is occurring faster than what history has predicted (http://www.livescience.com/18426-eart...).
2) I thought the underground encampments were a preface to nuclear, alien or EMP pulse mishap. However, all the 2 mile underground encampments fit the magneto-bill if the magnetic reversal continues rapidly. More for me to read!
Tks for Info!
tks for reading, Lynn

John wrote: "Luke,

As I have said before, our compasses will be useless or at least unreliable for a while. As the change in magnetic field takes place over a century or whatever, there will be that period of ..."

"For a while" is quite a big qualification to your original statement! But yes, we can agree on this.

As to whether anyone still uses a compass, you will be hard-pressed to find a GPS that can operate for more than about a week without a recharge, so there's that limitation if electrical power is hard to come by. Add to this the fact that GPS could be taken out of action at any time on the whim of a politician (this is quite a realistic scenario, see http://www.securityfocus.com/news/10140). It was actually George W. Bush who made the commendable decision to open up the military GPS network to the public in the first place - without this, most of us wouldn't have it yet.

I don't knock GPS, it's good while it works, but you still need a compass - far more reliable technology! The celestial bodies are more reliable still, even a pole shift doesn't break them :)

NASA wrote this in 2012 when the tin hats ran around screaming the sky is falling: It holds true for now as well: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/feat...

David wrote: "NASA wrote this in 2012 when the tin hats ran around screaming the sky is falling: It holds true for now as well: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/feat..."

Nice link. Thanks David.

I've also just found out that the time period between geomagnetic pole reversals is called a "chron":

"The time spans of chrons are randomly distributed with most being between 0.1 and 1 million years with an average of 450,000 years." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagne...

What an awesome unit.

Edward wrote: "James wrote: "From memory, Operation High Jump was the name of the mysterious multinational mission Byrd led. This was about 1947 or 1948, I seem to recall."

You're older than me?"

Yes, born in 1878...But I remain convinced I'm still yet to reach my peak.

This is the poleshift I am worried about: "The pole shift is in fact a movement of the interior of the Earth, the core, to come into alignment with the giant comet. The 12th Planet, due to its massive size in comparison to the Earth, dominates the magnetic scene, and it is in this regard that gravity comes into the pole shift equation. The Earth's crust resists aligning with the giant comet, being caught in a web of magnetic pulls from its immediate neighborhood. In other words, the Earth's crust wants to stay with the old, established, magnetic pull, while the core of the Earth, having less allegiance and attachment to the neighborhood, listens to the new voice. There is a great deal of tension that builds between the crust of the Earth and the core of the Earth. This tension is released when the core of the Earth breaks with the crust, and moves. However, the core of the Earth drags the crust with it as it turns to align anew." http://www.zetatalk.com/poleshft/p21.htm http://www.zetatalk.com/menupole.htm

wait....is this like the same scenario as: a few 20 years ago, my brain wanted to party at Put-in-Bay with my friends, especially to party with that 12th new dude; but my skin was telling me to go indoors with a Dickens book? I partied and my friends had to drag me and my skin back home. I didn't know the earth faces this crisis itself.
Sorry, I am celebrating my water-heater working again. Will now click on Donna's link....the new voice that watched us discuss magnetic north.

Donna wrote: "Is there not tropical vegetation under Antarctica's ice?"

Sort of off topic for Pole Shift, but then...

I sometimes wonder how many conspiracies and urban legends come from fictional works like this one about Antarctica: At the Mountains of Madness
It sounds a lot like the stories about underground/under-ice cities, etc...

And for a little levity, here's the view from the street about Lovecraft's novel. Peep this y'all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlFHz...

Jim wrote: "Donna wrote: "Is there not tropical vegetation under Antarctica's ice?"

Sort of off topic for Pole Shift, but then...

I sometimes wonder how many conspiracies and urban legends come from fictiona..."



In an area where the Antarctic ice sheet borders the Southern Ocean today, frost-sensitive and warmth-loving plants such as palms and the ancestors of today’s baobab trees flourished 52 million years ago. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/...

'In the sediments we found fossilised pollen representing two distinct environments with different climatic conditions - a lowland, warm rainforest dominated by tree-ferns, palm trees and baobab trees; and a cooler mountainous region dominated by beech trees and conifers.' http://planetearth.nerc.ac.uk/news/st...

So can we get any more laughs out of this thread or is the party over?

Donna wrote: "Jim wrote: "Donna wrote: "Is there not tropical vegetation under Antarctica's ice?"

Sort of off topic for Pole Shift, but then...

I sometimes wonder how many conspiracies and urban legends come f..."

What about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continen...

Great Book on Pole Shift and Great Flood 11,500 years ago: Cataclysm!

Character evolves, Ed