Read Women discussion

Our first buddy read of 2021 is Breasts and Eggs, which Hannah suggested and several members agreed to read with a tentative Jan 15 start.

if you want to join, let Hannah know in this thread when you'd be ready to do so and you all will align from there. (All are welcome.)

Hi Carol and Hannah,

I am available to start this one any time in 2021. I will be participating in another buddy read, but that should not be a problem. Looking forward to discussing this-- it looks like there will be a lot to talk about.

Great, thanks Kate I'm glad you can join us. I agree that it should be a really interesting book to discuss

Thanks Carol, wanted to join this one, but couldn't find my note about when it started!

The start date is TBA in 2021 Alwynne! Probably Jan or Feb, I hope you will be able to join us.

Hey all. I'm down for a mid-Jan or Feb start for this. Just wanted to put it out there so we can get our ducks lined up.

Hi everyone, I am excited to start this book. It looks like it is a bit long (around 450 pages), but as of right now, seems it will be fairly easy to get from the library. Anywhere from Jan. 15 on will work for me.

Shall we make a tentative date of 15 January?

That's fine with me, Hannah.

Hannah wrote: "Shall we make a tentative date of 15 January?"
I'm ok with this too

Everyone still good for the 15th or needing to move it back at all? Alwynne will you be able to join us?

I am still good for the 15th, but can also start later if needed.

Yes Hannah, probably more likely around the 16th as trying not to buy any more books until my next credit card bill turns up - covers Christmas!

Yes, I just my ecopy from the library a couple days ago. I didn't want to risk skipping for a week and not getting it back to me in time so I've been holding on to it.

Great I don't mind if people start without me btw, I'm not bothered about spoilers so it wouldn't be an issue.

I have a copy and hope I have time to join in the discussion.

Great, let's stick with the 15th then. Looking forward to it!

can someone tell me how buddy reads works .....This is my first time buddy reading.......I have the book with me and want to join.

Hi Birajanadan,

It's great you want to join in-- the more the merrier. I am not sure what people prefer, but I am thinking we can have our discussion here or in another thread in this group or some other social media platform. Because of time zones and such, it may be best to have the discussion in writing so people can participate at their convenience.

I am also wondering how we want to approach this in terms of number of pages-- how many days/weeks we want to devote to this book. Once that is decided, we can divide the book into sections we agree are manageable for all. Of course, life gets in the way of reading sometimes, so the divisions and timelines should be more of a guideline than something set in stone.

Those are just my thoughts. If anyone has more specific or different ideas, let us know.

This is our Breasts and Eggs discussion thread, so we will have our discussion here. However you want to break it up is fine, it's marked as 400 pages long. I would prefer to read it within two weeks, but if we take longer I will just take notes and share my thoughts on whatever schedule is decided on - it is zero problem for me. I've also never done a buddy read, but I think we might have fun discussing things like characters and setting or prominent themes. Idk what might come up, but I'm very eager to start this book!

Me too, Anita. I like your plan. For me, 200 pages a week seems very feasible, but I am happy to take notes as well if we need to go a little slower.

Hi everyone, I've had a bereavement, a few days ago. I have just started trying to read again today but am struggling to concentrate. I still want to try and partake in this buddy read and am hoping it may give me a distraction but I really don't know how well I'm going to manage. 200 per week seems like a lot right now but I'm happy for you guys to go ahead with your plan and I'll just chip in where I can.

Hannah wrote: "Hi everyone, I've had a bereavement, a few days ago. I have just started trying to read again today but am struggling to concentrate. I still want to try and partake in this buddy read and am hopin..."

I'm very sorry to hear that Hannah. What you're going through with reading is completely understandable. I do hope the buddy read can help, even if just to occupy your mind for a little while each day, but if not, that's okay too. Would you like to reschedule?

Sending you my warmest regards.

Sorry for your loss, Hannah. Focus on caring for yourself— thie buddy read can wait if you need. Sending thoughys your way at this difficult time.

I'm so sorry for your loss, Hannah. Sending virtual hugs your way.

Thanks everyone. I don't want to rearrange I just wanted you all to know. Perhaps we can just relax the weekly goal a little?

Birajanandan Mishra wrote: "can someone tell me how buddy reads works .....This is my first time buddy reading.......I have the book with me and want to join."

Welcome Birajanandan, I'm glad you would like to join us. This is our group's first buddy read so I think it's quite new to a few of us. I just plan on reading along and sharing my thoughts and feelings about the book

That seems nice. Then I will start reading the book as well.

Hannah wrote: "Thanks everyone. I don't want to rearrange I just wanted you all to know. Perhaps we can just relax the weekly goal a little?"

Absolutely, the fun is in talking about things together not rushing to meet a goal.

I agree there should be no rush but should we implement spoiler alerts or set a date for when discussing relevant points or the ending are acceptable?

Beth, that’s a great point. I most often see spoiler tags used for the first ten days or so, then free discussion, but it depends on the participants how you want to approach.

What would you guys prefer? A schedule where we agree points to pause and discuss such as:
We discuss the first 5 chapters on/ after the 18th
Up to chapter 11 on/after the 22nd
Up to chapter 14 on/after the 26th
The whole book on/after the 30th
That roughly splits the book into quarters
Or just discuss freely but use spoiler tags?

This plan works for me Hannah.

Fine for me too.

Discussion for chapters 1-5:
I've finished chapter 5 and am really enjoying the book. I like that the style is easy to read yet the content has substance. Some things that stood out to me the most:

I could really relate to Midoriko's feelings about periods and pregnancy and feeling trapped inside her own body. And also to the alienation (I am assuming at this point) that comes from feeling as though you are so different from everyone else that there's not even any point in bothering to try and make yourself understood.

Squirming at the idea of the chemical peel and bleaching of nipples on a daily basis (or ever...) just to make them a little lighter. I can't imagine putting my body through an ordeal like that for the sake of appearances. The level of shame somebody must feel to get to that stage both saddens and infuriates me. I found Natsuko's inner thoughts about her sister wanting to change her body to be strangely conflicting as she seems to both understand: "wanting to be beautiful was reason enough", and completely reject it at the same: "what had possessed Makiko to do this?"

I was cringing at the description of the chemical peels Hannah! I was darkly chuckling at the bath house scene when Makiko's breast fixation was making it awkward for her sister because she kept breaking social courtesy by staring at everyone else.

Midoriko, to me, is a pretty good hyperbolic representation of those preteen growing pains. I can't imagine refusing to speak to my mom for over 6 months, but I can appreciate not knowing how to communicate all the everything that is going on inside. When she flat out refused to go to the bath house I was laughing because I could hear a certain teen in my life saying melodramatically that they "would rather die" than do something socially public (and normal).

I'm also enjoying the book so far, and easy to read. I read the first 5 chapters and set it aside so I wouldn't speed through it.
I was also curious as to whether Midoriko's journal misings on certain words (disgust was one) were originally of English words, or if the translator chose English words that fit the idea.

I found the staring in the bathhouse to be inappropriately funny too but then became a bit uncomfortable with the scene where the couple enter and everybody leaves. I'm not quite sure what the author was going for here. I was quite confused by the strange dream like ending to that chapter and to chapter 5.

I find Midoriko and Makiko's relationship to be believable. I never went as far as not talking to my mum for 6 months but I do remember periods of my life where I felt explosive and forever misunderstood (and still sometimes feel this way 20 years later!). I also found Makiko's 'brush it off and pretend everything's fine' attitude to be real and reminiscent!

I also like the inclusion of a female character with a natural aversion to periods and pregnancy. This is a type of female who makes a lot of people uncomfortable and is not very often represented

I have finished the first 5 chapters and I am really enjoying it so far. I empathize with all the characters and find their relationships believable. It is an interesting look at Japanese society and culture as well-- learning about the different types of restaurants in Japan and food. There is also frequent discussion of how much things cost in Japanese yen-- not just the breast augmentation surgery but also food, drinks and housing. I was surprised that Natsuko and Makiko live in large Japanese cities but only pay about $500-600 CAD in rent.
I am also really enjoying the voices of all the characters. Even though Makiko does not narrate sections as Natsuko and Midoriko do, she talks so much that her comments in conversation are almost their own narrative.
Finally, I also could not see refusing to speak to my mother for six months, but I think there is more of a reason for that than we know right now,.

I agree Kate, I think there is much more to unfold with this dynamic and I'm looking forward to finding out more.

Even though Makiko does not narrate sections as Natsuko and Midoriko do, she talks so much that her comments in conversation are almost their own narrative. I really like how Kawakami has achieved this effect. There are 3 distinct voices coming through even though most of the book is written from the same pov and Midoriko's journal entries are just little snippets. I find this to be quite refreshing and think it works really well

I’m finding this really absorbing so far. The emphasis on poverty and gender comes across very forcefully, the way Kawakami uses the family's history to demonstrate the limited choices for unskilled, low-income women and how that’s intensified by being a single parent – and that lack of opportunity and of social mobility is an issue in Japan as it is in the UK. I could see why Midoriko might have cut off communication with her mother as she’s approaching puberty, she observes her mother struggling and how she's had to use her body as a commodity to make a living, and clearly doesn't want that as a possible future, so the silence seems a response to conflicted feelings guilt/compassion and rejection. And I liked how Kawakami linked Midoriko’s growing sense of the significance of her body not purely in biological terms but culturally and socially to Natsuko’s thoughts about women’s currency and their loss in value as their bodies age.

The obsession with plastic surgery obviously makes sense in cultures where women are primarily judged for their appearance – similar to Korea, U.K. and America – and seems part of capitalism but also of societies where pornography and other forms of representations of women shape how actual women perceive themselves or how the growth of the beauty industry increases pressures to perform certain kinds of body maintenance and presentation. Matsuda addresses this too in relation to spa culture in Where the Wild Ladies Are - the images of white women in the plastic surgery brochures made me think of Matsuda talking about how white models are used in Japan to suggest an ideal femininity, contributing to, at its most extreme, internalised racism or, at its least, dissatisfaction for not living up to impossible standards, and the talk about nipple whitening really brought that out and reminded me too of the skin whitening industry in Hong Kong. But I liked how the conversation also brought out the absurdity and barbaric aspect of so-called beauty practices.

But the way Natsuko observes and comments on her sister’s body also fascinated me, on one level she seems bewildered by her sister’s decision to alter her body yet her scrutiny suggests she objectifies it too. I did wonder if we’d learn more about the motivation for the surgery, I assume partly it’s about the fantasy of perfection and beauty as a path to happiness, but also has something to do with the fact that their mother died of breast cancer, and not solely Makiko as an aging hostess trying to maintain her attractiveness to clients, I wondered how much her extreme thinness related to that too. She's achieved the 'ideal' of being very thin but nothing’s actually improved for her, so it seems the breasts are the next step, so she's caught up in this cycle where whatever she does she’ll never be or feel quite right about her body. I wondered too if in some ways spending money on the breast surgery had symbolic force a skewed means of taking control.

Hannah wrote: "I found the staring in the bathhouse to be inappropriately funny too but then became a bit uncomfortable with the scene where the couple enter and everybody leaves. I'm not quite sure what the auth..."

Hannah, I was a little uncertain about that scene too but I thought the old schoolfriend who’s broken free of conventional gender norms communicated something about gender as fluid and not fixed, something that can play out in other ways and undermines any impression that biology's automatically destiny, and suggests that things could be different. But I know very little about Japanese Tomboy culture so probably a lot I didn’t pick up on.

Alwynne wrote: "I’m finding this really absorbing so far. The emphasis on poverty and gender comes across very forcefully, the way Kawakami uses the family's history to demonstrate the limited choices for unskille..."

Alwynne, your thoughtful analysis of the book so far is spot on! You've articulated perfectly the layers of complexity to what these women ate experiencing and why I love the book. I hadn't thought of Makiko's motivations for the surgery as being related to their mother's breast cancer, that is interesting. I think you're right about it being a way of trying to force control as well. When not only your worth to society but also your means of supporting your family financially are completely dependent upon your physical appearance the idea of 'losing your looks' and therefore your ability to earn a living must be incredibly stressful

Thanks Hannah I've been enjoying reading everyone's comments too. And yes horribly stressful for Makiko. I'm liking this a lot more than I'd expected to, it's very cleverly done, all these complex questions and issues about gender and economic deprivation but presented in a really accessible, un-preachy way. Although some aspects quite painful to confront, the underage hostesses for example.

I found these articles about the tomboy/Onabe culture that's referred to in the bathhouse scene, some articles say 'Onabe' is an offensive term, others that it's not. But seems it can refer to people who identify as transmen but also to a particular style adopted by some Japanese lesbians and also to people who identify as what sounds equivalent to genderqueer or non-binary.

https://savvytokyo.com/theyre-men-bor...

https://allabout-japan.com/en/article...

The discussion is now open for up to the end of chapter 10

I am a little behind but so far I'm finding that book 2 isn't as interesting as book 1. The scene with the eggs at the end of book 1 was explosive and then ended rather abruptly. I want to get back to these interesting issues between Makiko and Midoriko and find out what happened after they left. I'm not very far into book 2 so perhaps we will get back to it...

I'm a little behind too, I know the first part was originally published as a separate novella, so I'm treating the second part more like a sequel than the same novel, if that makes any sense. I hope they cover those things too Hannah, I'm quite invested in the characters at this point!

Alwynne wrote: "I'm a little behind too, I know the first part was originally published as a separate novella, so I'm treating the second part more like a sequel than the same novel, if that makes any sense. I hop..."

Ah that makes sense as it has jumped forward in time. New interesting issues are coming up for Natsuko but there hasn't been as much from the other 2 yet

The ending of the first half worked for me, although it left some loose ends the emotional issues were dealt with well, at least I thought so. The second half feels quite muted in comparison to the first, partly because it’s not compressed in terms of time so less urgency/immediacy to the narrative, more leisurely pacing but also because it’s more firmly centred on Netsuko so more interior and less action - the shift in tone perhaps reflects Netsuko’s changed social and economic status? Although the details work, like the Internet stalking of the ex and comparing his life to hers, I’m not so convinced by the central dilemma of wanting to be a mother. If I’d read this as a standalone piece I probably wouldn’t find Netsuko’s longing to have a child odd but after the emphasis on the difficulties of single parenthood for her mother and then her sister in part one, it seems an odd decision to take, particularly as writing is a precarious profession, meeting deadlines while looking after a small child plus sustaining the networking needed to get commissions seems potentially challenging. I also miss having more than one compelling character in the foreground, the older woman editor and the ‘punky’ writer have potential but are far sketchier characters than Makiko or Midoriko were. But I’m still enjoying the writing.

I have reached the end of chapter 10 and am enjoying it still. Although I am still disappointed that we have missed Midoriko's teenage years and don't even know if Makiko went through with the breast augmentation surgery.

The conversation between Natsuko and her friends about their husbands has been haunting me a little. Whether they loved their husbands and actually wanted to be with them didn't even seem to be an issue. What mattered was that society expects them to have a husband, any husband, so that they can have a father for their children.

Natsuko's dilemma about the sperm donors is really fascinating and complex. I can really feel how the expectations put upon her by society are so strong that for a while she doesn't even really know if having a child is something that she really wants or not. She's not even sure if using a donor is something she could go through with herself because the lines between what she feels and what others would think are so blurred. I really like how Kawakami is thoroughly exploring all the complexity of these issues that women go through. You can really hear the thought processes that Natsuko is experiencing and it feels very human.

Alwynne wrote: "The ending of the first half worked for me, although it left some loose ends the emotional issues were dealt with well, at least I thought so. The second half feels quite muted in comparison to the..."

I agree that it has become more muted amd that this refelcts less urgency and Natsuko's comfort in her new life. However, I am finding Natsuko's struggle over motherhood to be real. I think that for her it's more about loneliness than anything else and that she feels that this is an option for her now that she is earning money as a writer. Even though she still seems to feel an obligation/guilt over not supporting her sister and niece it seems like her fears about growing older alone have taken a priority in her mind.

I'm right there with you all about missing Midoriko and Makiko so far. Hopefully they turn up more physically as Book 2 progresses.

I think Natsuko's interest in having a child seems a bit out of character, but when we think about it, she wasn't quite explored in the first book anyways as the focus was on their family dynamic. I also wonder if they ended up having a close relationship in all the years we missed, and maybe that somehow lent to her desire to have a child of her own. Is it just cultural expectations that make her think she needs to have one? She doesn't even think it's a good idea for her to have a child, yet she pursues avenues of sperm banks. I can understand her seeing that as an option considering her asexuality, but it doesn't seem like she's actually passionate about either having a child or being a mother.

Natsuko's dreamlike ending of Book 1 made me think how insecure she feels without family, maybe her father in the dream represents support and security. I honestly thought that at any point the sisters would have come to an agreement to all live together, like they did with their mother and aunt grandmother, Komi. I'm just enjoying reading this book and reading all of your insights and comments.