The History Book Club discussion

This is the discussion thread for the book - James Madison - A Biography by Ralph Ketchum.

by Ralph Louis Ketcham (no photo)

This is a non spoiler thread.

James Madison - A Biography

by Ralph Louis Ketcham (no photo)

Synopsis:

The best one volume biography of Madison's life, Ketcham's biography not only traces Madison's career, it gives readers a sense of the man. As Madison said of his early years in Virginia under the study of Donald Robertson, who introduced him to thinkers like Montaigne and Montesquieu, "all that I have been in life I owe largely to that man." It also captures a side of Madison that is less rarely on display (including a portrait of the beautiful Dolley Madison).

About the Author:



Ralph Ketcham (1927-2017) was Maxwell Professor Emeritus of Citizenship and Public Affairs at Syracuse University. He authored numerous books, including The Idea of Democracy in the Modern Era; Individualism and Public Life; James Madison: A Biography; Presidents Above Party: The First American Presidency, 1789-1829; and Public-Spirited Citizenship: Leadership and Good Government in the United States.

all by Ralph Louis Ketcham (no photo)

Reviews:

"Madison's personality comes alive in these pages, his strengths and weaknesses of mind and character clearly outlined. His great services in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 are graphically portrayed. The analysis of his political theory, and of the way in which he sought to apply it to the establishment of of government under the Constitution, is excellent. The depiction of Jeffersonian and Madisonian foreign policy up to the outbreak of the War of 1812 is clear and succinct. This is an excellent biography. - American Historical Review

Utilizing the vast amount of source material made available in the last 30 years, Ketcham has captured the essential man in his times and in doing so has made him understandable for us in our own day. - Los Angeles Times

This single volume has provided a penetrating and highly readable biography which merits distinction as the best one-volume life of Madison yet written. - Virginia Magazine of History and Biography

Ketcham's long-standing familiarity with Madison's life and times is evident in this accessible work...Ketcham has written an enjoyable and scholarly narrative that will no doubt be considered of great value to Montpelier's more serious visitors, as well as students, scholars, and general readers with an interest in the founding couple. - Kellie Strickland, North Carolina State University North Carolina Historical Review

Awards:

National Book Award Finalist Winners - 1972

Review of book:

https://bestpresidentialbios.com/2013...

Table of Contents

Illustrations - following page 370
Preface to the Paperback Edition vii
Preface x
Abbreviations and Short Titles xiii

Chapter

I A Virginia Family Background 1
II Boyhood and Early Education 8
III The College of New Jersey at Princeton 25
IV The Search for a Vocation 51
V Virginia Revolutionist 68
VI In the Continental Army
VII Emergence as a National Leader 112
VIII Virginia Legislator and Traveler 144
IX Toward the Constitution 174
X The Federal Convention 190
XI Ratification 231
XII Establishing the New Government 270
XIII Party Leader 304
XIV A New Nation Faces World War 337
XV Montpelier and Dolley Madison 369
XVI Triumph over Federalism 391
XVIISecretary of State 408
XVIII Confrontation with Great Britain 441
XIX War Looms 474
XX Wartime President 534
XXI Defeat, Victory, and Peace 573
XXII Retirement 613

Selected Bibliography 673
Source Notes 679
Index 729

Syllabus:

Week One: - November 16th - November 22nd (pages vii - page 1)

Illustrations - following page 370
Preface to the Paperback Edition vii
Preface x
Abbreviations and Short Titles xiii

Chapter

Week Two: November 23rd - November 29th (pages 1 - 51)

I A Virginia Family Background 1
II Boyhood and Early Education 8
III The College of New Jersey at Princeton 25

Week Three: November 30th - December 6th (pages 51 - 88)
IV The Search for a Vocation 51
V Virginia Revolutionist 68

Week Four: December 7th - December 13th (pages 88 - 144)

VI In the Continental Army 88
VII Emergence as a National Leader 112

Week Five: December 14th - December 20th (pages 144 - 174)

VIII Virginia Legislator and Traveler 144

Week Six: December 21st - December 27th (pages 174 - 190)

IX Toward the Constitution 174

Week Seven: December 28th - January 3rd (pages 190 - 231)

X The Federal Convention 190

Week Eight: January 4th - January 10th (pages 231 - 270)

XI Ratification 231

Week Nine: January 11th - January 17th (pages 270 - 304)

XII Establishing the New Government 270

Week Ten:: January 18th - January 24th (pages 304 - 337)

XIII Party Leader 304

Week Eleven: January 25th - January 31st (pages 337 - 369)

XIV A New Nation Faces World War 337

Week Twelve: February 1st - February 7th (pages 369 - 391)

XV Montpelier and Dolley Madison 369

Week Thirteen: February 8th - February 14th (pages 391 - 441)

XVI Triumph over Federalism 391
XVIISecretary of State 408

Week Fourteen: February 15th - February 21st (pages 441 - 474)

XVIII Confrontation with Great Britain 441

Week Fifteen: February 22nd - February 28th (pages 474 - 534)

XIX War Looms 474

Week Sixteen: - March 1st - March 7th (pages 534 - 583)

XX Wartime President 534

Week Seventeen: March 8th - March 14th (pages 573 - 613)

XXI Defeat, Victory, and Peace 573

Week Eighteen: March 15th - March 21st (pages 613 - 672)

XXII Retirement 613

Selected Bibliography 673
Source Notes 679
Index 729

Week Nineteen - Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - March 22nd - March 28th

Sign up here if you plan to participate. I will be not be sending out an event notification nor a broadcast.

In the future, I will get back to that practice but right now I am concentrating on getting the discussions begun. It takes a lot of time and effort.

This is a single thread discussion and on a Presidential Read since it is even more free flowing than our BOTM reads - where you can only discuss the chapters that are assigned on the non spoiler thread - here we insist that you use the spoiler html in order not to ruin the book for anybody else coming along later - so be careful if you go ahead. If you do not go ahead and you are only talking about the pages in the weekly assignment then you do not have to use spoiler html - otherwise you do.

You can copy and paste below to get your spoiler right:

(view spoiler)[Put Text Here (hide spoiler)]

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Folks, please let us know if you will be joining in this buddy read. This will be a Presidential read begins Monday and you can go at your own pace. Bentley will be leading the discussion. Everyone is welcome. I do not have the book yet to place a table of contents and syllabus.

Kickoff for discussion is Monday - November 16th

You can post here in the meantime.

Spoiler html is just like bolding or underlining - the only difference is that instead of a b or a u - you use the word spoiler.

If you go ahead of the assigned reading - then this is how the spoiler html would look.

For example:

Introduction
(view spoiler)[This is where your comments go (hide spoiler)]

Remember the following:

Everyone is welcome but make sure to use the goodreads spoiler function if you get ahead of the assigned weekly pages.

If you come to the discussion after folks have finished reading it, please feel free to post your comments as we will always come back to the thread to discuss the book.

The rules

You must follow the rules of the History Book Club and also:

First rule of Book of the Month discussions:
Respect other people's opinions, no matter how controversial you think they may be.

Second rule of Book of the Month discussions:
Always, always Chapter/page mark and spoiler alert your posts if you are discussing parts of the book that are ahead of the pages assigned or if you have become expansive it your topics.

To do these spoilers, follows these easy steps:

Step 1. enclose the word spoiler in forward and back arrows; < >

Step 2. write your spoiler comments in

Step 3. enclose the word /spoiler in arrows as above, BUT NOTE the forward slash in front of the word. You must put that forward slash in.

Your spoiler should appear like this:
(view spoiler)

And please mark your spoiler clearly like this:

State a Chapter and page if you can.
EG: Chapter 24, page 154

Or say Up to Chapter *___ (*insert chapter number) if your comment is more broad and not from a single chapter.

Chapter 1, p. 23
(view spoiler)[I know everything now about chapter one and I am going to post it here - oops I better place this in a spoiler alert so I do not ruin the book for others (hide spoiler)]

If you are raising a question/issue for the group about the book, you don't need to put that in a spoiler, but if you are citing something specific, it might be good to use a spoiler.

By using spoilers, you don't ruin the experience of someone who is reading slower or started later or is not reading the assigned pages.

Thanks.

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

You can copy and paste below to get your spoiler right:

(view spoiler)[Put Text Here (hide spoiler)]

This is a long one but we will read and discuss a few chapters a week or a long chapter for the week which should allow everyone to keep up and yet be also able to read other books as they see fit.

We try to make it easy for everyone to be able to finish any of these books.

The Table of Contents and Syllabus are posted above.

You can read a hardback, a paperback, read it on Kindle. It is up to you and every medium is fine for this discussion. However, I do not believe that this book is available on Audible. However, since this is a great biography of Madison and is considered very complete - it is well worthwhile.

If you read ahead - you can always use the spoiler html and read at your own pace. We just try to make it doable.

Post and introduce yourself and let us know where you are reading from - city (approximate), state or city, town, village (approximate) and in which country. And tell us what interested you about the book and your reason for wanting to read it. Are you a Presidential enthusiast like I am; or are you someone who wonders what was the hub bub about Madison or the Federalist Papers or the impact that he had on the Constitution and this great country?

My name is Bentley and I am the founder and group leader of the HBC and I want to welcome you to this Presidential Read.

I promise you that we will get through this book with flying colors. And I am most excited about reading another book about a man that I have greatly admired for a long time but do not know a great deal about (James Madison)




Welcome to the discussion of this book and we hope you will join us.

There is no need to use spoiler html if you are posting regarding the pages that we have assigned for any given week or pages that came before. Only when you go ahead of us do you have to use the spoiler html. You do not need to use citations for this book that we are discussing or for its author. However, if you cite some ancillary book and author - then of course make sure that you cite it appropriately.

We hope you will get to know Madison better over time with us.

Just post and let us know if you are joining the discussion and post an hello. It is never too late to sign up to read the book. We are always here and the threads are open all of the time.

This is the Week One Assignment:

Week One: - November 16th - November 22nd (pages vii - page 1)

Illustrations - following page 370
Preface to the Paperback Edition vii
Preface x
Abbreviations and Short Titles xiii

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Preface to the Paperback Edition

Ralph Ketchum reflects on the first preface of the book written two decades earlier.

Preface

Ralph Ketchum reflects upon vast impact that James Madison had upon this country. Madison lived for 85 years and played a part in virtually every major public event from the Stamp Act protests to the Nullification crisis.

The above eases us into the book with the Week Two assignment actually having us dive into the book with the first three chapters.

Join in this week and and you have plenty of time to get the book and jump in by the 23rd. See you in the discussion.

Week Two: November 23rd - November 29th (pages 1 - 51)>

I A Virginia Family Background 1
II Boyhood and Early Education 8
III The College of New Jersey at Princeton 25

Hello - I plan on joining but may be a few days late! I have yet to read a Madison biography and would love to jump in with this one. Just hoping things settle down a bit and can get started this weekend.

Also, I don't believe a Kindle Edition of this book exists yet. I only add that because I was unable to locate any on Amazon.

Jonathan, there is no problem - we are here.

I checked and I do not see one; but I got a paperback copy from Amazon which came pronto. It is thick but it is a very comprehensive biography so I am looking forward to it. It is chronological so a chronological approach always works better for me when learning as much as I can about any given former president.

Where are you reading from Jonathan - we are always interested since we are a global group where folks are jumping in from.

Hi Bentley! I am reading from Savannah, Georgia. I completely agree with the chronological approach for presidential biographies.

Ditto on approach and welcome from beautiful Savannah - a fave of mine.

Bentley wrote: "Sign up here if you plan to participate. I will be not be sending out an event notification nor a broadcast.

In the future, I will get back to that practice but right now I am concentrating on ge..."

Hi Bentley. I will join you with the Ketchum book
Thanks. Vince

Glad to have you with us.

This is the Week Two Reading Assignment:

Week Two: November 23rd - November 29th (pages 1 - 51)

I A Virginia Family Background 1
II Boyhood and Early Education 8
III The College of New Jersey at Princeton 25

Hi Bentley, thank you for setting everything up. Jonathan and Vincent, I will join you in this read. Reading from just south of Denver, Colorado. I ordered a lovely paperback so I can mark it up and underline and write in the margins! I'm here for the general history and for a fuller understanding of James Madison.

I must have the same paperback. I think that Ketchum's book will give you that; whereas the other book on Madison had other topical focus areas.

You are most welcome and glad that we have the Presidential Series going again in full force.

Preface
And so we begin:


James Madison Montpelier Estate - public domain

"In the first preface to this book written nearly two decades ago, I noted that the new material available, information about Madison was "almost oppressively abundant." In the intervening years, the flow has not diminished nor has the scholarly attention to Madison at all declined."

Source: Ketchum book - Preface - vii

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. What are some of the other sources that have become available regarding Madison in the past 30 years or so? Are there some that you are readily familiar with that you would recommend to your fellow group members?

2. Were you surprised that for an allegedly frail boyhood that Madison lived to 85 years? Which public events throughout his life do you think that he is most remembered for?

Chapter Overview and Summary

Preface

The author, the late Ralph Ketchum discusses the various sources that he used in writing the book as well as the new important sources that have been published since his first publication.

I look at that photo of Madison's home and it reminds me of his Constitution--- the obvious importance of balance; the feeling of permanence.

Adele what an interesting observation - you are so right. To me it denotes strength, purpose, a solid foundation and permanence which you already mentioned.

It looks so solid and respectable too.

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

I A Virginia Family Background

This chapter discusses the genealogy and family background.

II Boyhood and Early Education

This chapter discusses Madison growing up as a child and his early schooling.

III The College of New Jersey at Princeton

This chapter discusses Madison's time at Princeton.

Bentley asked, "Were you surprised that for an allegedly frail boyhood that Madison lived to 85 years?"

I had a good theory going to support a diagnosis of hypochondria: I was thinking that so many amongst his family and friends had died of illness when he was growing up that perhaps his family had become overprotective of him, perhaps often telling him to rest and care for himself if he seemed the least bit sick...because they didn't want to lose him. And I thought about the travel he had done in the outdoors and in bad weather, and I thought, "How frail could he be?"

But...Ketcham's book has so many references to Madison's being ill, and Madison DID forego making any trips to Europe, so I've come down on the side of, yes, he had health issues. Yes, he traveled about the country---but not when he was ill. If pushed, I would guess that his long life might be attributable to his being hyper-aware of when he wasn't feeling well and that he then took immediate steps to conserve his strength, or drink herbal tea, or something. :-)

Chapter 1: A Virginia Family Background

A couple of observations. The huge importance of land in maintaining and betttering one's family financially and and establishing one's family as a power player. Speculation in land can provide profits. A plantation lifestyle allowed one the opportunity to educate one's children to an elite level and allowed time to engage meaningfully in the local political organizations.

It's probably in the American psyche. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtAaB...

"Don't Fence Me In" sung by Bing Crosby.

Chapter 1: A Virginia Family Background

In Feldman's book on Madison, possible spoiler:(view spoiler)[ it was observed more than once that Madison tried very hard (ex. Monroe) to not let political differences destroy his friendships.

A couple of reasons for that occur to me:

1) The small pox epidemic came through when he was young and impressionable. He was probably left with an emotional, gut-level knowledge that people aren't permanent;

and 2) the intricate interconnectedness of the families in Virginia. So very many relationship triangles intersected with another, which in turn intersected with another... People depended on one another on a family level ("she depended heavily on her nearby relatives" p5), a civic level, a political level (prominent political families married into other prominent political families).

If one has a serious falling out on a political level, it would probably also affect one's familial life. (hide spoiler)]

by Noah Feldman

Adelle wrote: "Bentley asked, "Were you surprised that for an allegedly frail boyhood that Madison lived to 85 years?"

I had a good theory going to support a diagnosis of hypochondria: I was thinking that so man..."

Yes, that perplexed me too. I wonder what other readers thought about Madison's purported frailness. 85 was a long life back then.

Chapter Two: Boyhood and Early Education

"the woods included red, white, and Spanish oak, hickory, pine, poplar, chestnut, and dogwood...still in great virgin strands" (10)

I do love trees. I've tried to imagine how this wooded acreage might have looked. I found photos of strands of pine in Mississippi; and photos of individual native to Virginia trees. Aren't some of those magnificent specimens!

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel...

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...

Chapter Two: Boyhood and Early Education

I know I've mentioned this before, but the travel time still grabs my attention. "the big event in the week was the trip, six or seven miles long, and therefore taking about two hours each way, to the Brick Church" (13).

I grew up 6 or 7 miles south of Bismarck. It took 10 minutes to drive "up town."

Paved roads. They are so handy.

Chapter Two: Boyhood and Early Education

Memories of the smallpox experience doubtless remained with Madison for his entire life. "10 percent of a population of eight thousand died in Charlestown, South Carolina. Up to one half of those who took the disease naturally died, as did at least 1 per cent and perhaps as high as 5 per cent of those who underwent the harrowing vaccination experience" (16).

I think of today... with an infection and death rate considerably lower...and look how it is on the minds of the people.

Chapter Three: The College of New Jersey at Princeton

"News of the 'Wilkes and Liberty' riots in London gave American radicals a sense that their grievances and goals were shared by many on the other side of the Atlantic" (27)

A Pennsylvania newspaper "announced proudly that a boy in New York had recently been christened 'John Wilkes' after the famed English radical leader" (27).

"John Wilkes' impact on the development of colonial opposition to Britain cannot be understated, although it has been understudied" (from ouramericanrevolution.org)

I couldn't find any confirmation, but I wondered whether John Wilkes Booth, too, had been named after THIS John Wilkes. (I have two relatives with "Delano' as part of their names in honor of FDR. One "Montgomery" in honor of the British general. So to me it fits a pattern.)

http://ouramericanrevolution.org/inde...

It probably does.

Chapter Three: The College of New Jersey at Princeton

"When the authorities at the College of New Jersey sought advice and precedent from Great Britain they turned to ... dissenting academies... rather than to [the stagnant and rigid] Oxford or Cambridge" (29).

"...the stated goal...care is taken to cherish a spirit of liberty, and free enquiry; and not only to presuming to dictate with an air of infallibility, or demanding an implicit assent to the decisions of the preceptor" (31).

This seems to me very important. That academically Madison was influenced in a place that exposed him to more open perspectives and thoughts.

Yes, and he welcomed the diversity and the different perspectives and thoughts and he frequently changed his mind too. Those character traits obviously had their genesis at Princeton.

Chapter Three: The College of New Jersey at Princeton

Regarding Madison's reading list. Witherspoon seemed to have quite a selection of books---both classics and modern. The students had access to them.

I found it curious that there was no mention of Rousseau. Madison enters Princeton in 1769 and is there for a couple of years. Rousseau's Discourse on the Origin of Inequality among Men came out in 1755 and apparently was something of a sensation in Enlightenment circles. His Social Contract was published in 1762.

Do you suppose it would have taken that many years for the books to begin to have some influence in the colonies? Or perhaps Ketcham didn't think those books were particularly influential on Madison and so he did not include them?

by Jean-Jacques Rousseau

by Jean-Jacques Rousseau

I think that Locke had more of an influence on Madison and Jefferson while those patriots who were a bit more involved with activism were influenced by Rousseau - among them Thomas Paine.

Link: https://iep.utm.edu/amer-enl/

Source: Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Hi Folks
So I am thoroughly enjoying this book. I find that Ketchum seems to be approaching this sort of as Madison and His Times.
The history of the disruption during the French Indian war - the pervasion of society of smallpox, the traveling realities, the family ties that Madison's family seems to illustrate, are all instrumental to understanding Madison and his times and his life/world.
I also see him as a really wealthy/sheltered young man - going off to university with your servant and your teacher - and staying on after graduation for more "reading with the headmaster, and with no plan to "earning a living" beyond being the son of a prosperous plantation owner. Maybe we needed such an environment to bring up the man who seems to have been a genius behind the Constitution.
I do think that he was sheltered, maybe in part due to his smallish stature, and maybe less strong than average. And that he lived to be 85 (Bentley's earlier question) could have been, we will see more as we go through his life, that he avoided risks, could afford a healthy life style, did not work at a "grinding down" job.???
His association at Princeton with all these notable future members of American society is certainly interesting and also, as Adelle mentions the open minds of the faculty at the College of New Jersey.
I am also agreeing with Bentley that Locke had more influence on Madison - at least format he reading of this book. Adelle seems more familiar than me with some of the other philosophers mentioned.
I am marveling at the works he studied and learned - so I guess he was extremely talented and gifted - but then too were also most or many of his schoolmates? - maybe no screen time saved them for more ambitious things to come.

Thanks Vincent - welcome to the conversation.

The link that I posted did go over some of the influences of the founding fathers. Yes, I am not sure what contributed to his long life but certainly living to the age of 85 was considered a long life back then.

He was very well educated and had the opportunity, the financial backing and the time to be able to pursue his studies and books in general.

Ketchum's book gives us a chronological view of Madison's life which is very much appreciated.

Glad to have you with us.

Bentley wrote: "I think that Locke had more of an influence on Madison and Jefferson while those patriots who were a bit more involved with activism were influenced by Rousseau - among them Thomas Paine.

Link: ht..."

Thank you, Bentley! That was good background/foreground information!

At 46 Vincent wrote: "I am marveling at the works he studied and learned - so I guess he was extremely talented and gifted - but then too were also most or many of his schoolmates? - maybe no screen time saved them for more ambitious things to come
.."

My thoughts, too, Vincent. What a curriculum. Almost stupefying impressive. But basically, Madison was home schooled with a private tutor. No screen time... No organized sports... No Book TV dangling desirable "Let me put a hold on THAT" books before our eager eyes... The novel was just coming into its own --- think of all the great authors Madison never had the opportunity to read. And I think, too, the cultural values of Madison's cohort played a part. Primarily three futures available: Pastor, lawyer, educator. Anyway, those are the three I remember Madison's friends writing about.

Adelle wrote: "Chapter 1: A Virginia Family Background

A couple of observations. The huge importance of land in maintaining and betttering one's family financially and and establishing one's family as a power pl..."


Hi Adelle

So the whole concept of land in America was, in my view, the availability to the settlers from Europe where all the land had been "spoken for" for centuries was the game changer for everyone - it is part of the reason for the success of America.
That Americans could just move west if it didn't really work out for them - think of A. Lincoln's family.
And, of course, compared to the population in Western Europe most Americans had relatives who had come across the water back only one to a few generations.