Classics and the Western Canon discussion

We decided to do something different this time. Instead of pulling a new batch of books at random, here is a list of recent runners up that refuse to go away - which seems to be a trend these days. As always, feel free to promote your favorites here.

Past Runner's Up
1) Demons by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

2) The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin by Benjamin Franklin

3) The Return of the Native by Thomas Hardy

4) Brave New World by Aldous Huxley

5) Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

6) Pensées by Blaise Pascal

7) Emma by Jane Austen

8) John Stuart Mill combo: On Liberty, Utilitarianism, and The Subjection of Women

Here is the upcoming schedule:

Nov 25 - Dec 1	Week 9 Library...	Next read member discussion
Dec 2 - Dec 8	Week 10 Library...	Next read Poll
Dec 9 - Dec 15	Week 111 Library...	Next read run-off if needed
Dec 16 - Dec 22	Interim Read 1	Acquire 2021 Book
Dec 23 - Dec 29	Interim Read 2	Acquire 2021 Book
Dec 30 - Jan 5	2021 1st. Read Discussion Begins.

David wrote: "We decided to do something different this time. Instead of pulling a new batch of books at random, here is a list of recent runners up that refuse to go away. It seems we started a trend. As always..."

And we've got a good list. I am to join reading any of these books except Demons (I have a 'personal' issue with Dostoyevsky).

Alexey, if Demons wins the poll, I sincerely hope you will reconsider and join the discussion because I really value the insights you have given us in the past on some of the novels we've read.

Thank you, Tamara. I always try to join reading and discussion, even if I do not feel like that, it does not always work, of course.

I love this idea and there are some great choices. My first choice would be Demons, since I’ve gotten excited to reread it a couple times now. Like Tamara, I hope Alexey would reconsider.

I’m just finishing up a deep read of The Aeneid, and since it’s on my soon-to-read list, Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations would be second choice followed by JSM. I think the only one I wouldn’t join in on would be Emma because I recently read the first 20% of it and realized that I just couldn’t take Austen’s “cuteness” anymore.

Aiden wrote: "I’m just finishing up a deep read of The Aeneid. . ."

Be sure and see our 2012 discussion of Virgil's The Aeneid here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Aiden wrote: "I’m just finishing up a deep read of The Aeneid, and since it’s on my soon-to-read list, Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations would be second choice followed by JSM. I think the only one I wouldn’t join in on would be Emma because I recently read the first 20% of it and realized that I just couldn’t take Austen’s “cuteness” anymore."

I have read Meditation and On Liberty, both don't tempt me to re-read, but I believe the discussion will worth it. As for Emma, I am quite suspicious: so far, of all Austen's book I've read, only P&P was unquestionably enjoyable, and Nabokov's lectures on Mansfield Park was much more interesting than the novel itself.

Alexey wrote: "Aiden wrote: "I’m just finishing up a deep read of The Aeneid, and since it’s on my soon-to-read list, Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations would be second choice followed by JSM. I think the only one I wo..."

We’ll have to agree to disagree over Jane Austen, Alexey. While Pride and Prejudice is her best known and probably best loved novel, Emma (and Mansfield Park) seem to me her most complex novels with good possibilities for discussion.

It’s been awhile since I read Nabokov’s lectures on literature, but I believe contemporary criticism takes a different tack on Mansfield Park, focusing on (among other things) issues that are implicit in the text like the slavery on their West Indies plantation that supports the Bertram family’s English lifestyle.

Great list of possibilities! It’s going to be hard for me to pick just one to vote for ;)

I'm always ready to read Jane Austen again. I love her wit and sarcasm. I find the more I read her, the more it comes to the forefront.

Kerstin wrote: "I'm always ready to read Jane Austen again. I love her wit and sarcasm. I find the more I read her, the more it comes to the forefront."

Agreed. She is so much fun to read. I'm doing a reread of all her novels on another social media platform and people have had so much fun with it.

Just browsing the Wikipedia page of Mansfield Park by Jane Austen has piqued my interest by convincing me that there must be a considerable amount of things going on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansfie...

Then again, maybe this is what somebody meant by the discussions about the book are more interesting than the book itself. Even if that were true, this group thrives on good discussions. . .

Mansfield Park is the greatest novel of the greatest novelist.
And JA's only mention of America.

These are all great choices although I must admit I've never read Pascal. I hated Hardy in college but I'm willing to give him another chance. Huxley seems extremely timely and I'm always up to re-read Austen! To be honest, I'm happy with whatever the group chooses! It's more fun when people participate in the discussions!

Maybe it is finally time to give the devil Demons its due?

The poll has been posted and may be found here at the top of the page: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...

Or here for comments: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

You may need to wait a little bit to vote:

Voting STARTS: Dec 03, 2020 12:00AM PST
Voting ENDS: Dec 09, 2020 12:00PM PST

The poll for our next read is open.

Be sure to vote on the book you want to read and discuss next. The poll will close Dec 09, 2020 11:59PM PST

Per the final weighted results of our poll we will be reading Demons by Fyodor Dostoyevsky next. The discussion will begin December 30th.

R	W	W%	Book
11	20	41%	Demons
4	9	18%	The Return of the Native
4	8	16%	Emma
2	4	8%	Brave New World
2	4	8%	John Stewart Mill Combo
3	3	6%	Meditations
1	1	2%	AutoBio. Of Ben Franklin

David wrote: "...we will be reading Demons by Fyodor Dostoyevsky next. The discussion will begin December 30th...."

Raise another glass of champagne to toast the New Year!

So third time is the charm? (Unless I've lost count) Looking forward to reading Demons and will be looking for tips on translations. I believe there will also be a group reading Demons on Twitter in January

When searching for a copy of Demons by Fyodor Dostoyevsky, please keep in mind the book is sometimes also entitled The Possessed or The Devils

If one is not anti-Garnett, here is the kindle store's (fre)e-book of The Possessed:

https://www.amazon.com/Possessed-Devi...

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Join us in supporting Roger as a guest-moderator for Demons.

Roger has been a member of this group since July of 2009 and has consistently contributed over 1500 discussion comments making him a solid choice to help us out with this one. So join me in wishing Roger good luck and extending our thanks to him for leading our discussions and taking this on.

David wrote: "SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Join us in supporting Roger as a guest-moderator for Demons.

Roger has been a member of this group since July of 2009 and has consistently contributed over 1500 discussion co..."

How wonderful! I'm looking forward to it, Roger. My copy is in the mail.

David wrote: "SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Join us in supporting Roger as a guest-moderator for Demons.

Roger has been a member of this group since July of 2009 and has consistently contributed over 1500 discussion co..."

Welcome aboard, Roger! I'm delighted you agreed to be our guest moderator.
I've not read Demons before, so I'm really looking forward to this.

Thank you for this, I downloaded it today!

Bryan--Pumpkin Connoisseur wrote: "If one is not anti-Garnett, here is the kindle store's (fre)e-book of The Possessed:

https://www.amazon.com/Possessed-Devi......"

Although the team Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky have tended to be the "go to" translators of Russian classics these days, I believe I saw favorable reviews for the recent translation of the Demons by Robert A. Maguire (2008) -- beyond the Goodreads clip at the link below. If you are interested in a current translation, you may want to find out a bit more before investing. (Some will say Garnett matches the language of the Victorian era of the writing, others will fault her or her peers for sometimes prudish editing.)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

(P&V's translation appears to have been published, at least in paperback, in 1995.)

Sorry for the long post. Wikipedia says: This is a list of the unabridged English translations of the novel:

Constance Garnett (1914, as The Possessed)
David Magarshack (1953, as The Devils)
Andrew R. MacAndrew (1962, as The Possessed)
Michael R. Katz (1992, as Devils)
Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky (1994)
Robert A. Maguire (2008)
Roger Cockrell (2018, as Devils)

I never read it and therefore have no recommendations.

I have the Kindle edtion translated by Maguire which says this:

ROBERT A. MAGUIRE (1930–2005) held the position of Boris Bakhmeteff Professor Emeritus of Russian Studies at Columbia University. He taught at Yale, Princeton and Harvard, and was a Visiting Fellow at St Antony’s College, Oxford. His two main areas of specialization, on which he wrote widely, were the Soviet period and the early nineteenth century. Among his books are Red Virgin Soil: Soviet Literature in the 1920s (1968; 3rd edition, 2000), Gogol from the Twentieth Century (1974) and Exploring Gogol (1994). His translations include Andrei Bely’s Symbolist novel Petersburg (with John Malmstad, 1978) and Nikolay Gogol’s Dead Souls (Penguin, 2004), as well as the works of several contemporary Polish poets, notably Tadeusz Roz˙ewicz and the Nobel laureate Wisława Szymborska.

Dostoyevsky, Fyodor. Demons (Penguin Classics) . Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

I am also considering the Audible version translated by Katz. A 2013 review of Katz audiobook says this:

1992 translation by Russian Studies Professor Michael R. Katz of Middlebury College. Professor Katz reinserts Dostoevsky's intentionally quirky sentence structure which was sadly washed out by earlier translators. I've read that some critics think Doestoevsky wasn't a great stylist as was Tolstoy and others. In my opinion, that's only because early translators failed to pick up his nuances. Dostoevsky was a very careful writer. Many of his supposedly awkward sentences, when carefully translated, reveal great wit and style. I compared Professor Katz's translation to others, such as the acclaimed translation by Pevear and Volokhonsky, and feel that Professor Katz's is the best going.

L. Kerr 09-06-13: https://www.audible.com/pd/Devils-Aud..., retrieved 12/14/2020

I could not find a kindle edition of the Katz translation, but the paperback published by Oxford World's Classics can be found here: https://smile.amazon.com/Devils-Oxfor...

David wrote: "SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Join us in supporting Roger as a guest-moderator for Demons.

Roger has been a member of this group since July of 2009 and has consistently contributed over 1500 discussion co..."

Thanks, Roger, in advance! Sounds like a fascinating book for discussion.

David wrote: "When searching for a copy of Demons by Fyodor Dostoyevsky, please keep in mind the book is sometimes also entitled The Possessed or The Devils"

Thank you! I kept wondering why I’d never heard of Demons before the polls here, but I knew it as The Possessed

David wrote: "Sorry for the long post. Wikipedia says:This is a list of the unabridged English translations of the novel:

Constance Garnett (1914, as The Possessed)
David Magarshack (1953, as The Devils)
And..."

Thanks for this! It’s good to have a choice

What’s in a name, indeed?

Try to write the original Russian title in Latin characters and you’ll get something like BIESY, which is plural for BIES. Google BIES and you’ll get not only translation but some ‘exciting’ pix of BIESY as well.

Now.. I would write the word in Latin letters as BES. I’d do that because the original word is a three-phoneme one-syllable word (it sounds very close to the sound of a punch in the face in movies). And if you write down 'BIES' and ask a native Russian speaker to read it outload, something very different from the Russian original will come out. Phonetically, BES is also only approximation though. And BES is already taken, if you google BES, you’ll get a different word… (hmm.. etymologically the two may be connected.)

In Russian translation of the Gospels, the demons in Luke 8, 32 – 37 are called BIESY; reading the mentioned verses can explain one of the English translations of the title – The Possessed.

If you are a Pushkin/Gogol fan, BIES is an old friend of yours. With Dostoyevsky though, biesy have gotten nice clothes and higher education; not so easily recognizable at first look.

Ashley, Tamara, and Susan: Thanks for the good wishes.

If it makes a difference to anyone, I will be using the Penguin Classics edition, titled Demons, translated by Maguire. I considered the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation, but some reviewers found it so literal as to be hard to follow in places. Maguire's translation is recent and has been widely praised.

The book is about political extremism--distressingly topical.

If I join in....can't say that I've enjoyed the Russian authors, but I' ll use whatever copy the library has to offer.

Did I miss what the interim read is to be?

Those still struggling with decisions on what translation to use might find it interesting to read the comments of L Kerr on the Audible edition of Devils featuring George Guidall as the narrator and using the text as translated by Katz. I don't know how authoritative they may be, but they did suggest to me things to consider. (The comments were too long to consider excerpting them here and I didn't find an easy link either. Sorry.)

Chris wrote: "Did I miss what the interim read is to be?"

It has just been posted. We're sticking with the Devil theme because 2020 isn't over just yet.

I took a Russian Lit. class many years ago and one of the most enlightening moments was comparing different translations of the text. I think it will prove beneficial if we have different translations represented in this group. I already own the P&V translation so that is the one I will be using.