Into the Forest discussion

Dear Mods,

Are there any plans in the works for the 2021 Challenge?

I really liked our 2020 themed challenge centering magical beings/ creatures. So, if anyone else is game, that'd be my nomination for 2021.

(Here's the brainstorming thread for last year's challenge in case anyone wants to check it out: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...)

yes please!!

Leah wrote: "Dear Mods,

Are there any plans in the works for the 2021 Challenge?

I really liked our 2020 themed challenge centering magical beings/ creatures. So, if anyone else is game, that'd be my nominati..."

Thank you for starting this thread Leah!
I know asked about ideas somewhere else, but I forget where.

For one I really like having corresponding group reads. It makes it easier for us mods because we can skip the step of nominating themes and just put up the challenge themes in the poll.

I had the idea of maybe selecting motifs from various myths, folk and fairy tales for example:
searching for a missing spouse
the youngest sibling
A magical helper
Etc

However I totally don't mind repeating the 2020 magical creatures one!

As long as it's an overarching theme, I'm all for it.

(I also liked having the group reads based on the challenge.)

Magical creatures/beings would be fun again.

I also like your popular motifs idea. I was kinda thinking along those same lines... I'd like to hear more possibilities for the motifs. Besides, the 3 you listed, did you have others in mind?

I think we still have plenty of material out there to read if we repeat the themes. I thought it was great. I’m also good with mixing it up so...

Leah wrote: "I also like your popular motifs idea. I was kinda thinking along those same lines... I'd like to hear more possibilities for the motifs. Besides, the 3 you listed, did you have others in mind? .."

No, not off the bat. I was hoping some of the other members could suggest some.
If not, I am happy with magical beings/creatures

Jalilah wrote: "I had the idea of maybe selecting motifs from various myths, folk and fairy tales"

I really like this one.

Me too

We could also do a mixture: part beings/creatures, part motifs.

Since my creativity reserve is running low, I found various lists online. Jalilah's previous suggestions are among them.

From http://www.surfturk.com/mythology/fai..., I like:

- Triumph of the poor
- Human weakness explored (curiosity, gluttony, pride, laziness, etc.)
- Human strengths glorified (kindness, generosity, patience, etc.)
- Guardians (fairy godmothers, mentors, magical helpers, guides, etc.)
- Monsters (dragons, ogres, evil creatures, etc.)
- Impossible tasks (fantastic effort needed to complete, etc.)
- Youngest vs. Oldest (sons, daughters, sibling rivalry)
- Quests (searching for a missing spouse could fit here)
- Keys, passes (opening new doors)

Thoughts? New ideas?

I love all of these categories. My main interest is in reading myths/folklore from different cultures, so these will work well.

Another suggestion might be character archetypes (here I list Jungian archetypes, but there are others, eg. Propp):

- Hero: Represents the self (ego) in search of identity and wholeness.
- Mentor: Wise (wo)man. Represents the Self.
- Threshold Guardian: encountered by the Hero at the gateway to each new world. The Hero must learn their nature to determine how to handle them and pass over the threshold.
- Herald: Challenges the Hero and announces the coming of significant change.
- Shapeshifter: Changes appearance or mood. Confuses the Hero.
- Shadow: Represents the energy of the dark side, the unexpressed.
- Ally: Companion, sparring partner, conscience, or comic relief.
- Trickster: Represents the desire for change and the energies of mischief.

Amanda wrote: "My main interest is in reading myths/folklore from different cultures, so these will work well..."

Me too. I think between the beings/creatures, popular motifs, and archetypes, we definitely have a large enough selection to pull 12 challenge items. Maybe could even do a mixture of all 3 -- 4 "topics" from each theme?

Hopefully other members will join in the discussion too.

Mods, are you thinking that, like last year, you'll create a poll for us all to vote on to get down to the top 12? If I remember correctly, Margaret created that poll in an external app.

Amanda wrote: " My main interest is in reading myths/folklore from different cultures, so these will work well...."

Me three!

Leah wrote: "Mods, are you thinking that, like last year, you'll create a poll for us all to vote on to get down to the top 12? If I remember correctly, Margaret created that poll in an external app. ..."

I don't know how to do the app but hopefully Margaret or Christine will be able to do it.


I love the ideas mentioned! How about we get started?
I'll add:
Quest for a missing spouse
Magical helper or mentor
I think these are motifs that can be found in many cultures

Please add your suggestions and we can start compiling a list!

I just joined so anything would work for me.

I apologize for just seeing this! I've had an intense few weeks.

I can definitely set up an external quiz again, and have us vote, top twelve win the vote.

So it sounds like we're thinking about 2 main themes: motifs and archetypes. I think there are a lot of similarities between these themes which make them great to pair together. For instance, Jalilah mentions "Magical helper or mentor" as a motif, but this is also a character archetype. I think these two topics fit well together!

I also love creature fairytales and see no reason why creatures can't be included in motifs and archetypes.

To add to the list:
Crone/witch (archetype)
7 sisters/brothers (motif)
Beneficent/meddling fairy (archetype)
Stepmother (archetype)
Rags to riches (motif)
Conquering the mythic creature (motif)

Sorry if I listed some that have already been listed. How about we give this another week, and then I can compile all the thoughts together and make a quiz?

Michele wrote: "I just joined so anything would work for me."

Welcome Michele!

Margaret wrote: "I apologize for just seeing this! I've had an intense few weeks.

I can definitely set up an external quiz again, and have us vote, top twelve win the vote.

So it sounds like we're thinking about ..."

This is great!

Jalilah wrote: "I love the ideas mentioned! How about we get started?
I'll add:
Quest for a missing spouse
Magical helper or mentor
I think these are motifs that can be found in many cultures..."

+1 Magical helper or mentor

Could we go a bit more general with quests? Instead of only quests for a missing spouse, could it instead be

Quest for a missing loved one (spouse, partner, sibling, child, etc.)

I'm going to nominate the following:

- Monsters as heroes (motif)
- Impossible tasks (motif)
- Youngest vs. Oldest (motif)
- Tricksters (archetype)
- Djinn (beings/creatures)
- Witches (beings/creatures)

I like quest for a missing loved one.

I loved the 2020 challenge, and have been reading along with the group nominees this year, wanting very much to join the comment boards. But a host of obligations derailed me from joining the conversations.

But I would like to suggest another archetype, if it would interest anybody to find stories and myths featuring

The orphan (or the person with an unknown past/origin)

Margaret wrote: "I like quest for a missing loved one."

I think most of the myths legends and fairy tales are missing spouses but I am totally okay with changing it to Quest for a missing loved one. I can imagine some of the retelling have a missing loved one rather than "spouse" and it would possibly give us more options to choose from.

I love The Orphan. Actually all the nominations are good!

Margaret wrote: " To add to the list:
The wicked crone/witch (archetype).."

I'm wondering why it has to be a "wicked" crone. It seems to me this reinforces a stereotype about older women. Fairy tales frequently pit older women against younger ones as if to suggest older women are evil and cannot be trusted. But crones/older women don't have to be wicked. Maybe we can just say "crone" and leave it open for the possibility that older women can also be guides and mentors.

Leah wrote: "Dear Mods,

Are there any plans in the works for the 2021 Challenge?

I really liked our 2020 themed challenge centering magical beings/ creatures. So, if anyone else is game, that'd be my nominati..."

Leah wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "I love the ideas mentioned! How about we get started?
I'll add:
Quest for a missing spouse
Magical helper or mentor
I think these are motifs that can be found in many cultures..."


Hi,

I like the ideas, with the exception of the missing spouse, as I just wrote a short story on this subject, but I really am interested in the magic mirror.

Tamara wrote: "I'm wondering why it has to be a "wicked" crone. It seems to me this reinforces a stereotype about older women. Fairy tales frequently pit older women against younger ones as if to suggest older women are evil and cannot be trusted. But crones/older women don't have to be wicked. Maybe we can just say "crone" and leave it open for the possibility that older women can also be guides and mentors. "

Absolutely. I'll change it.

hi,
I would agree with Tamara, I can think of the kindly old Fairy in Cinderella, as an example but I am sure if I thought about it long enough, I would be able to add more.

Carole Lane

We can just leave it as Crones
I believe Crones was on the Polls last year but did not make it to the final 12

Carole wrote: "hi,
I would agree with Tamara, I can think of the kindly old Fairy in Cinderella, as an example but I am sure if I thought about it long enough, I would be able to add more.

There's also Spider Grandmother in American Indian mythology.

Tamara wrote: "Carole wrote: "hi,
I would agree with Tamara, I can think of the kindly old Fairy in Cinderella, as an example but I am sure if I thought about it long enough, I would be able to add more.

There'..."

And helpful magical old women of European fairy tales. They also often test the heroes, though.

Tamara wrote: "I'm wondering why it has to be a "wicked" crone. It seems to me this reinforces a stereotype about older women..."

Thank you for saying this, Tamara. I was thinking the same thing, which is why I nominated "Witches," because I wasn't jiving with the "wicked" portion of that archetype. But the edited "Crone/Witch" I will definitely vote for.

I'm really loving all the nominations. Looks like, same as last year, it's going to be hard to pick when voting time comes.

The idea of good versus evil is a common theme in many myths and fairy tales. This can be a theme in itself.
I am also against an evil witch or crone.
But is a witch the same as a crone? For me a witch is someone who practices magic where as a crone is more like a wise women or am I mistaken?

I was actually thinking about separating them out, witch and crone. A witch can be young or old, too, while a crone is older.

Ha, check out this definition of crone from Wikipedia: "In folklore, a crone is an old woman who may be disagreeable, malicious, or sinister in manner, often with magical or supernatural associations that can make her either helpful or obstructing. The Crone is also an archetypal figure, a Wise Woman."

When I have a chance, I'm going to collect all of our nominations so far and list them here, so we can work on wording and add more before the poll goes up.

So, wise woman and malicious. Got it. :) It reminds me of some of the discussions from From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairy Tales and Their Tellers.

I like the motifs/archetype idea too. Trying to think about my favourites, I would say The impossible task, The talking animal/object, Journey to another world (sort of like Jack and the magical bean), Quest for a loved one/People turning into animals (The six swans for example), The captive maiden, Guardians, Monsters.

I would also like something on the more mythical side, as for example Stories on the origin of the world, Indian myths and sagas... Maybe I'll propose this sort of things again in 2022

Marta wrote: "I like the motifs/archetype idea too. Trying to think about my favourites, I would say The impossible task, The talking animal/object, Journey to another world (sort of like Jack and the magical be..."


Yes! An impossible task! I'd forgotten that often used motif!

We had a round the world challenge a few years ago. It would be great to do it again some time!

I think we can include mythic motifs this round--like origin stories.

Okay, I'm going to round up all these ideas here and see what we have. Such great options! Feel free to make more theme suggestions or to change the wording. I have questions at the end of the list for things I’m unsure about. I'll aim for getting the quiz up next week.

—Quest for a missing loved one
—Rags to riches
—Impossible tasks
—Conquering the mythic creature
—Monsters as heroes
—Human weakness explored (curiosity, gluttony, pride, laziness, etc.)
—Human strengths glorified (kindness, generosity, patience, etc.)
—A magical helper, mentor, or guardian
—Crone
—Beneficent/meddling fairy
—Herald: Challenges the Hero and announces the coming of significant change.
—Shapeshifter
—Shadow: Represents the energy of the dark side, the unexpressed.
—Ally: Companion, sparring partner, conscience, or comic relief.
—Family Troubles: Stepmothers, Siblings, Orphans, and other pesky relatives.
—Trickster
—Djinn
—Witch
—The talking animal/object
—Journey to another world
—Keys, passes (opening new doors)
—People turning into animals
—The captive maiden
—Origin stories
—The Huntress

Changes I made

We had 3 nominations on the theme of youngest/oldest of various wording. I eliminated “youngest sibling” and added sibling at the end of youngest vs. oldest. So we end up with Youngest vs. oldest siblings, which seems clearer. Let me know if changes should be made there!

I eliminated “Triumph of the poor” and went with the phrasing “Rags to riches” which was also nominated. Again, I can change it either way!

Help me with these questions

Amanda, I eliminated Threshold Guardian and combined it in the definition of “Guardians.” I hope that’s okay.

And I’m a little unsure what to do with these:
—Herald: Challenges the Hero and announces the coming of significant change.
—Shadow: Represents the energy of the dark side, the unexpressed.
—Ally: Companion, sparring partner, conscience, or comic relief.

First, will we be able to find enough books that focus on the herald and the ally? And what exactly does shadow mean? Book examples?

I think “Quests” might be too general. I think almost all fairytale novels have quests? Or not? Some are more obvious than others. What do y’all think? Cut it or keep it? Similar issue with hero. Too general? Cut or Keep?

We have 3 monsters themes: monsters, conquering the mythic creature, and monsters as heroes. Do you think we could eliminate one of these, and if so, which one? (We don’t have to.)

Also, are these 3 too similar?
—Guardians (fairy godmothers, mentors, magical helpers, guides, threshold guardian, etc.)
—A magical helper
—Mentor

Margaret wrote: "Okay, I'm going to round up all these ideas here and see what we have. Such great options! Feel free to make more theme suggestions or to change the wording. I have questions at the end of the list..."

Happy with Threshold Guardian becoming Guardian. The crone figure often (but not exclusively - so keep separate) maps on to this archetype.

The Herald usually appears at the start of the story (change is a-coming), but can appear throughout, eg. Effie Trinket in The Hunger Games. The motif keys (and golden tickets) might map on to this archetype. Personally, I'm not rooting for this archetype, nor The Ally, as we will no doubt come across them in most Quest stories.

I am, however, intrigued by The Shadow, which represents the dark side of the hero's character. A prime example in literature being Mr Hyde (to Dr Jekyll). I stumbled upon www.knowyourarchetypes.com which says The Shadow can appear in a character's dreams, and might also take animal form, such as snake or dragon.

The list is already plentiful, but I'd like to throw in The Huntress, who is the personification of the independent female spirit.

Margaret wrote: "Also, are these 3 too similar?
—Guardians (fairy godmothers, mentors, magical helpers, guides, threshold guardian, etc.)
—A magical helper
—Mentor..."

No, they are distinct. The Guardian tests the hero - 'this way lies danger'. With the exception of threshold guardians, should not include the characters in parentheses.

The Mentor helps the hero get going on the quest. Could be the fairy godmother, often gifts the hero with something they will need on the journey.

Guides and helpers (magical or otherwise) tend to stick around more than The Mentor. They often equate to The Ally archetype.

I vote we cut Quest, for being too general, also Hero, for the same reason.

Could we combine the Siblings options (youngest vs. oldest, 6/7 sisters/brothers)?

Added The huntress!

That's a good idea about combining the siblings options.

Oh, I see what you mean about the shadow. If it wins the top 12, we'll have to do some brainstorming on book ideas, but I'll keep it!

I'll wait to hear from other folks before making changes to the sibling option (though I agree with Amanda) and to eliminate hero and quest.

Instead of youngest vs. oldest siblings, sisters/brothers, can we say just broaden it to say Siblings? That way you can include variations on sibling relationships, e.g. sibling rivalry between youngest and oldest or vice versa; and siblings who rescue/help each other out, e.g. Rossetti's Goblin Market.

I vote we eliminate the generalized "Quests." I'm sorry, I didn't clarify that in my nomination: I wanted to second Jalilah's "Quest for missing love one" instead of the general Quests.

I second combining whatever can be combined *if* the nominations are in fact for the same topic/subject just worded differently; i.e., Siblings.

Margaret wrote: "I think “Quests” might be too general. I think almost all fairytale novels have quests? Or not? Some are more obvious than others. What do y’all think? Cut it or keep it? Similar issue with hero. Too general? Cut or Keep?.."

I think Quests alone is too general. I prefer Quest for a Missling Loved One.
I also agree with combining themes if they are similar

Tamara wrote: "Instead of youngest vs. oldest siblings, sisters/brothers, can we say just broaden it to say Siblings? That way you can include variations on sibling relationships, e.g. sibling rivalry between you..."

I agree with This suggestion!

"Margaret wrote: "..—Guardians (fairy godmothers, mentors, magical helpers, guides, threshold guardian, etc.)."

I also like the idea of combining all these ideas into one! There will already be so much to choose from!

I like broader categories. It will make it easier to find books that fit.

Okay, I eliminated the separate siblings categories for "Siblings" alone. I'm tempted to put "Sibling trouble" because I like an interesting title. :)

I've cut "Quest" and "Hero."

I combined several categories to read: —A magical helper, mentor, or guardian

Amanda, you wanted to keep them separate, Jalilah did not. If another person agrees they should be separate, we can separate them.

Is the Ally a magical helper, too?

Amanda, I really like your categories and I think they'd make an interesting discussion point. I don't mean to single those out!

And what do you think about the three monster categories?
—Monsters
—Conquering the mythic creature
—Monsters as heroes

They're just different enough. Clearly, 2 and 3 have different objects. So I think we could either cut "Monsters," or cut the second and third options and leave "Monsters."

Or we could keep all 3. I just know this list is long!

Margaret wrote: "Okay, I eliminated the separate siblings categories for "Siblings" alone. I'm tempted to put "Sibling trouble" because I like an interesting title. :)

I've cut "Quest" and "Hero."

I combined seve..."

It's not so much I wanted to keep different magical helpers as I just wanted to keep more options open

The same goes for monsters. If we just kept that as the title we can still choose what types we want to read about

No an Ally doesn't have to be a helper although in myths and fairy tales they often are

I vote to cut the too general Monsters and keep the other two more specific options:

—Conquering the mythic creature
—Monsters as heroes

And I like the combo of

—A magical helper, mentor, or guardian

While they're different, combining them into one option gives everyone broader book selection.

Another idea would be to combine Stepmother and Siblings into one category such as

—Family trouble (Stepmothers, siblings, etc.)

Also add orphans to family trouble?

Okay, we have 1 vote for Monsters, 1 vote for Conquering the mythic creature and monsters as heroes. Anyone else want to weigh in?

I like the idea of family trouble, while also thinking of how different stepmothers, siblings, and orphans stories are. There are different tropes surrounding them, different conversations to be had. However, there's no reason why we can't have all those conversations in a single thread.