The Sword and Laser discussion

So... I've enjoyed what I've read of Octavia Butler before (the novel Kindred, and the short story Blood Child) but I'm really struggling with Parable of the Sower. I'm about a sixth of the way through and it all just seems... dreary and depressing, with a lot of exposition and not a lot of action (and what action does happen is... depressing stuff like (view spoiler)[ a child of rape and incest being neglected by her family and then randomly murdered (hide spoiler)]) and frankly I don't know if I can take this. So far, there isn't any real speculative element beyond a projection into the (depressing) future, so there isn't even any alien-robot-spaceship stuff to keep me interested.
I want to like this book because it's an author I admire, but... I feel like I need something with a bit more hope and humour to it to read in the dreary December of this dreary year.
Is anyone else struggling? Or has anyone reached the end and found that it improves as it goes?

I'm skipping this one as a re-read (I read it long ago) because the entire series is tough. It's ultimately 'hopeful' in some sense but a) it's the first book and b) Not in 2020.

Butler is one of my fave, most respected SF authors. Wild Seed and the Xenogenesis books are amazing. But the Parable stuff is tough and I dislike post-apoc settings anyway.

I have read the entire book. It continues on as you describe and gets worse. There is so little in the way of SFnal elements that I have a hard time thinking of this book as SFF.

There's interesting reflections on religion and the nature of god. Certainly a lot of action in the form of death murder kill. There is little uplifting in the slow apocalypse.

I knew I was in for "SF Literature" the moment I opened the book. That's fine, and even as a slog there can be good elements. CS Lewis' space trilogy comes to mind, a grind from the getgo but with worthwhile commentary on life and religion. On the apocalyptic front this book reminds me of Heinlein's "Revolt in 2100" but without the actual futuristic stuff or optimistic plotline.

This is my introduction to Octavia Butler. I found it overwhelmingly dreary and am not at all motivated to read the second book as it seems like more of the first. I was curious if she'd written anything I would like, so thanks for mentioning Kindred.

It's hard going, the first of Butler's books that I've struggled with for precisely the points made. It is so bleak; it actually reminds me of Random Acts of Senseless Violence by Jack Womack, which shows an America spiralling into increasing chaos (also published in the mid-09s, what was in the water?)


I'm about three quarters through and am sticking with it - for those struggling early on, it does get a bit less horrific once they're on the road. However, I've been advised that Parable of the Talents is just as bleak so I'm not sure if I'm up to reading that as well.

John (Taloni) wrote: "CS Lewis' space trilogy comes to mind, a grind from the getgo but with worthwhile commentary on life and religion. "

I really like the first two parts of that but hate, hate, hate, hate, hate That Hideous Strength. I found the same loss of story replaced by obvious allegory that ruins the Narnia books mid way through. But perhaps that's just me :)

Paul wrote: "It's hard going, the first of Butler's books that I've struggled with for precisely the points made. It is so bleak; it actually reminds me of Random Acts of Senseless Violence by [a..."

This was hard for me to get through and accidentally finding out what happens in Talents does not encourage me to continue.

It does get better once Lauren gets on the road.

I often disagree with the particular books chosen to represent an author (the Czerneda Tom picked a few months ago is not what I'd have chosen) and I would not pick this book to represent Butler. I think it's an almost cruel choice to pick such a bleak book in the middle of 2020.

For those for whom this is the first Butler they've read - this is by far her bleakest work (Parable of the Talents is more of the same). Kindred, Wild Seed, Dawn are all better choices.

NOTE: None of her books are light funny adventures. They make you think and can be thought provoking, even disturbing in some sense... but they're not as unremittingly bleak as these.

I should have been more strident in waving people off this one in the announcement thread.

Based on the overall negative reaction to the Marlon James book, I am pretty surprised by this pick. I know it was chosen by someone else, but I think some veto power should’ve been exercised.

On top of COVID, 2020 has been brutal and the stress is literally killing people (3 of my childhood neighbors died this year, one from heart attack and two from murder; my friend also killed himself a day after retiring from the post office), so I was puzzled by this choice.

If ever there were a “read the room” moment that was obvious to everyone, 2020 is it.

The "EARTHSEED: THE BOOKS OF THE LIVING" quotes are interesting. Does the main character offer some solutions for her society toward the end? I saw an interview with Octavia and Charlie Rose where she said that the two books should be taken together. Compared to the Marlon James book, the prose is certainly easy to understand.

Trike wrote: "I should have been more strident in waving people off this one in the announcement thread.

Based on the overall negative reaction to the Marlon James book, I am pretty surprised by this pick. I kn..."

Yeah, I wish Tom and Veronica participated here more. Maybe they read posts here a lot but it feels like we're our own little thing and they make choices... somehow.

As amazing as some of Butler's stuff is, this was a poor choice for the end of a long, brutally hard year.

Tamahome wrote: "The "EARTHSEED: THE BOOKS OF THE LIVING" quotes are interesting. Does the main character offer some solutions for her society toward the end? I saw an interview with Octavia and Charlie Rose where ..."

Solutions? Kind of. Look, as literature this is a very good book. I'd read other Butler right now (see above) if you're interested in her work (and you should be!). But if you want an "...and then it all came together and things were sunshine and puppies" ending.. nope.

Very nope.

Everyone reacts to things different ways. I think it was great to have the charming balm of Howl for a month, but there may be people who want to lean in on the darkness a little bit too. I do think it's a good year for 'content warnings' however, so I appreciate that when I pick this read up, I'll know a little about what I'm getting into.

Seth - I think that's true but to Trike's read the room point, this is particularly tough, stressful year and we can't even say "F it, I'm grabbing a beer with people" without risking serious illness and death.

Choices like this are more than a little tone deaf given 2020 and if people want to 'lean into the darkness' they can do that themselves, on other reads.

Trike wrote: "If ever there were a “read the room” moment that was obvious to everyone, 2020 is it."

Brea did explain her reasons pretty well in today's podcast. She was in the same head space as the rest of you earlier in the year and is now ready for something darker. Not everyone is there yet and may not be for a while.

Hopefully 2021 will be better for you guys.

An alternate read of Finding Baba Yaga: A Short Novel in Verse by Jane Yolen was suggested for those who choose to miss PotS

I’d also recommend Year Zero, which is a nice lightweight and fun book. It’s not laugh out loud hilarious, but it is amusing.

The basic concept that a galactic court has ruled the entire galaxy owes Earth back royalties for all the human music they’ve listened to resulting in Earth effectively owning the galaxy is in itself funny. The fact the alien representatives choose a rookie lawyer to work on the case because he coincidentally has the same name as a member of an 80s boy band just amps up the silliness.

I thought it was an excellent choice. Very prescient. Full disclosure: I had started reading this book by chance before it was the December pick since I was done with Howl's very early on (which I also enjoyed). I consider Butler, and--in particular--this book as capital-I Important.

I finished this one super early, and am filling a few days full of quick reads, but starting this weekend I intend to start Talents. I wish I had started reading Butler much, much sooner. She's an exceptional writer.

Update: I’ve now listened to the latest podcast episode and I feel like I understand a lot better the reasons behind this pick, and also the hosts seemed very understanding that it wouldn’t be for everyone. I’ve decided to Lem this book and I’m reading The House in the Cerulean Sea instead, which was mentioned elsewhere as a “rainbows and puppies” read - which is what I want right now!
I look forward to seeing some of the conversation about this book in other threads.

Ruth wrote: "Update: I’ve now listened to the latest podcast episode and I feel like I understand a lot better the reasons behind this pick, and also the hosts seemed very understanding that it wouldn’t be for ..."

This was the book I was going to suggest! I can't think of a better anti-read to PotS. Found family, strange classmates, maybe a love story....

Rick wrote: "I often disagree with the particular books chosen to represent an author (the Czerneda Tom picked a few months ago is not what I'd have chosen) and I would not pick this book to represent Butler. I..."

I don’t know that this pick was specifically to represent Butler. We previously did another of her books (Dawn, I think?).

I haven’t started reading this one because I’ve been reading Rhythm of War in my free time. I do plan to try but it may be a little later.

Tassie Dave wrote: "She was in the same head space as the rest of you earlier in the year and is now ready for something darker. ..."

Well... that's kind of not reading the room. The criticism isn't about her or even whether it's a good book, but she's picking a book for a lot of people to read, not just for herself. The 'didn't read the room' criticism is that, as a group, it might be a tough read for many of us at this time.

The same could have been said about Black Leopard, Red Wolf. That was way more controversial and darker than PotS

Brea acknowledged that a lot of people aren't ready for this and both her and Tom expect some people will choose not to read it.

But we shouldn't not pick books that people don't want to read, yet. Put it aside and read it when life returns to normal.

We have had a few lighter books in the recent picks. So something a little darker is appropriate. Personally, I'm up for as dark as the hosts want to go, but that's me.

Ruth wrote: "I’ve decided to Lem this book and I’m reading The House in the Cerulean Sea instead, which was mentioned elsewhere as a “rainbows and puppies” read - which is what I want right now!"

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "This was the book I was going to suggest! I can't think of a better anti-read to PotS. Found family, strange classmates, maybe a love story...."

Actually, you did recommend it, with a hearty second from me. 😁

Tassie Dave wrote: "The same could have been said about Black Leopard, Red Wolf. That was way more controversial and darker than PotS"

True. This was one from this year I DNF, though I plan to come back when the ebook price comes down. Though my issue was less about how dark/depressing it was (though it is a factor), but that the audiobook (which is how I consume most of my books these days) wasn't working for me.

Tassie Dave wrote: "We have had a few lighter books in the recent picks. So something a little darker is appropriate. Personally, I'm up for as dark as the hosts want to go, but that's me."

Yeah, but you’re darkness personified and you live on an island surrounded by ice sharks and inhabited by actual devils. Your standards are different from humans.

And he watches Baby Yoda in the dead of night.

Tassie Dave wrote: "But we shouldn't not pick books that people don't want to read ..."

The chain of negatives in there made my brain cross... :)

I am wondering if there is a SoCa road map companion to the PotS.

Rick wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "But we shouldn't not pick books that people don't want to read ..."

The chain of negatives in there made my brain cross... :)"

I had to re-read that several times to make sure I had it right. I'm still not 100% sure 😉

Trike wrote: "Yeah, but you’re darkness personified and you live on an island surrounded by ice sharks and inhabited by actual devils. Your standards are different from humans."

I've never been more glad than this year, that I live in a remote mountain town, on a small-ish island, in a country surrounded by vast oceans.

Devils are actually cute, but they scare the bejesus out of you when you hear their screams in the middle of the night, if you camp near them.

We're not gonna take it
Oh no, we ain't gonna take it
We're not gonna take it anymore

Jan wrote: "We're not gonna take it
Oh no, we ain't gonna take it
We're not gonna take it anymore"

Um....

The title just triggered that ear worm for me ;-)

The singer of that song Dee Snider is checking out the book now with his friend Frank Zappa.

More cowbell!

I was interested in Brea's take in the podcast, about the saving grace of PotS (although she didn't put it like that) being that is is about rebuilding - or, rather, building something better than what has been destroyed.



That got me thinking about other post-apocalyptic scifi that has the same kind of approach - The wonderful Station Eleven, Meg Elison's Road to Nowhere trilogy.



Any others?

Paul wrote: "being that is is about rebuilding - or, rather, building something better than what has been destroyed.

That got me thinking about other post-apocalyptic scifi that has the same kind of approach - The wonderful Station Eleven, Meg Elison's Road to Nowhere trilogy.

Any others?."

It’s not immediately after an apocalypse but rather several hundred years later, but The Pelbar Cycle (starting with The Breaking of Northwall) by Paul O. Williams is a superb example of this, where various isolated communities start reconnecting into a larger nation over the course of a generation or so. It is ultimately quite uplifting. I’ve rambled at length about the books before, so if you do a search you’ll get more info.

The second half of Lucifer's Hammer deals with rebuilding soon after a comet hits Earth. Seveneves does some of the same. Earth Abides, which I don’t really recommend, does have this element.

Alas, Babylon does some of this after a nuclear war. Similarly, A Canticle for Leibowitz does too, but (view spoiler)[ends in another apocalypse, because history is cyclical. (hide spoiler)]

The Postman by David Brin is all about that. He basically took a minor character from Lucifer’s Hammer and made him the main guy.

On my TBR are Walkaway and Bannerless, whose descriptions sound like this idea.

Trike wrote: "Paul wrote: "being that is is about rebuilding - or, rather, building something better than what has been destroyed.

That got me thinking about other post-apocalyptic scifi that has the same kind ..."


Yeah, I'd debated A Canticle for Leibowitz, but wasn't sure it qualified because of that. I'd quite forgotten the Pelbar books; I read the first three of them about twenty years ago or so!

Paul wrote: "I was interested in Brea's take in the podcast, about the saving grace of PotS (although she didn't put it like that) being that is is about rebuilding - or, rather, building something better than ..."

It's not a novel but I really liked Emergency Skin

Paul wrote: "I was interested in Brea's take in the podcast, about the saving grace of PotS (although she didn't put it like that) being that is is about rebuilding - or, rather, building something better than ..."

I read a Boy and His Dog at the End of the World which inhabits a world that is several generations removed from present day and a miniscule fraction of the population. The story is also focused through the perspective of one individual similar to PotS.

I made it to the end and while it is a hard slog at times with depressing and brutal scenes, I did love it and give it 4 Stars.

I moved straight into Parable of the Talents

I laughed when in Chapter 1 of PotT I read a quote from the extreme far-right Presidential candidate who wants his supporters to help us to to "Make America Great Again"

Octavia wrote that over 18 years before Trump made it his catchphrase.

Rick wrote: "It's not a novel but I really liked Emergency Skin"

Seconded here on this, I love that story.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I made it to the end and while it is a hard slog at times with depressing and brutal scenes, I did love it and give it 4 Stars.

I moved straight into Parable of the Talents

I laughe..."

Same here! I picked up PotT over the weekend. I liked PotS and gave it a strong review as well. Personally, I think the story (view spoiler)[ gets better once she's forced to leave her home and venture out into the world. The relationship building with the other characters and her developing philosophy / spirituality are the high points for me. I loved Butler's writing style and the fact that she didn't pull punches in creating an unforgiving dystopian world. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Here's the "food magic realism book" Brea mentioned as a "book chaser" to Parable of the Sower: Natalie Tan's Book of Luck and Fortune

I finished the tale. I found most of the violence to be offstage, more of a newspaper report than a police report with all its gory detail. I also found the tale more hopeful, as the main character goes from being afraid and untrusting to becoming more sure of herself and willing to take a chance on individuals. Plus the tale took place in my neck of the world, a path I myself have traveled many times as both lakes mentioned in the tale are fabulous for fishing.

PotS is a very good book. I, too, started PotT. I am halfway through.

Paul wrote: "It's hard going, the first of Butler's books that I've struggled with for precisely the points made. It is so bleak; it actually reminds me of Random Acts of Senseless Violence by [a..."

yep, that was the exact "other book" vibe I was getting as well

I enjoyed it very much, more than I was expecting, but I prefer grim to fluffy