Tournament of Books discussion

space to discuss Hari Kunzru's "Red Pill" (and perhaps compare it to his previous TOB favorite White Tears

I loved White Tears so much, one of the best books I've discovered through ToB.

Red Pill, well, I found zero enjoyment in it. The writing couldn't even redeem it for me and I do think he is a good writer. I still gave it four stars because it's very intellectual and I felt inadequate. My true feeling is three stars.

I don't know, am I just less able to deal with depressing sh!t in books right now or are there a few really dark reads on this shortlist?

Here is some of my original review:

Hari Kunzru writes a philosophical novel that would probably take three PhDs for me to get to the heart of, but I grasped some of what he was trying to do. I know he's been interested in the rise of fascism and it is the narrator's inability to argue his way out of it, the lack of the tools to see good triumph over evil, that will stick with me the most. I felt in particular that the ending was a strong move and put everything that happened up until that point in a different light. The narrator is not an easy person to root for, whether it's narcissism or just academic self-absorption (and really the book raises the question if there is really any difference.) His poor wife.

I did feel reluctant to return to this one. I loved White Tears but I think in that novel I was more in sync with the focus of the ideas behind the story, whereas in this one I was less so.

Kunzru explores some of the dank dark corners that I'm not happy to know about, and now that I do I can never unlearn them. He forces the reader to join him and I'm not sure I consent to it, but it's too late.

I feel like all my posts about the shortlisted books so far have been downers but would we find anything to talk about in a happy novel? If only we had a Normal People....and that isn't even happy just maybe more mundane than some of the really dark ones.

I just finished this one, and I’m trying to figure out what to make of it - this may take a while! I’m looking forward to the TOB discussion and any discussions in this thread.

Jenny, thanks for sharing your review. Glad to see I’m not the only one who struggled.

A little OT, but this is Kunzru on Twitter. This is hilarious. https://twitter.com/harikunzru/status...

"Mike Pence you repressed joyless would-be witchfinder, every time you spoke you always looked like you were straining to expel an enormous bolus of your own hypocrisy from your clenched sphincter.

“Betsy DeVos you blandly foolish soulless entitled child-stealing witch, rotting like a corpse inside your Chanel suit.

“Kayleigh McEnenay, you evacuated husk of a mean-girl cheerleader, the cavity where your heart once was pumped full of spite and moronic lies.

“Bill Barr you vast pompous pus-filled bladder of casuistry, you are an enemy of justice, bloated with resentment and cruelty, wobbling like a jelly at the feet of the oligarchs.

“Jared Kushner you vacuous dainty preening overpromoted nub of mediocrity, squeezed like an entitled smear of toothpaste into a silk suit bought with tear-stained dollars wrung out of the suffering tenants of your slum apartments.

“Ivanka Trump you monstrous slug of vanity, you infantile ninny so marinaded in self-regard that in your pea brain you believe we ought to love you for your crimes.

“Mike Pompeo, you bubble, you booby, you flatulent zero, that roiling in your ample guts that you mistake for world shaking significance is just the acid reflux of irrelevancy.

“Don Junior, you scabrous single-nostriled unloved elephant-murdering human wreckage, vibrating with bitterness and impotent rage at all the opportunities you’ve squandered.

“Interlude: all you staffers and interns, so eager to crunch your way in your shiny new work shoes over the bodies of the poor and powerless, I smite you and cast you out one by one.

“Eric Trump, you pallid clammy suppurating nocturnal semi-human grub, your absence of charisma is your only notable trait and the act of flushing you from memory will so be smooth and painless that in a month people will find it hard to picture your moon face.

“Rudy Giuliani, you capering cartoonish skull-faced bag of graft and corruption, too stupid even to ask who’s pulling your strings just so long as you can cake your crusty face in tv make-up and clack your jaw at a camera.

“And of course Stephen Miller, you weeping pustule upon the social body, you dreg, you homunculus, you noxious slime felched from the gaping cavity of Jim Crow, one day may you find yourself walking barefoot across hot sand, desperate for water, crying for your missing child.

“With that I'll rest a while, and go to find a street corner to dance on."
Hari Kunzru

Elizabeth wrote: "A little OT, but this is Kunzru on Twitter. This is hilarious. https://twitter.com/harikunzru/status...

"Mike Pence you repressed joyless would-be witchfinder, every time ..."

Gee whiz Mr. Kunzru. Don't hold back; tell us what you really think.

I just finished Red Pill, and for me it was incredibly powerful. My GR review is here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

It was striking to me how different the tone felt at the beginning & end from the increasingly claustrophobic & sinking feel of the big middle. Likewise, I found the likability/unlikability of the narrator to be dramatically different in those sections. Kudos to the author for the ability to create that.

Elizabeth wrote: "A little OT, but this is Kunzru on Twitter. This is hilarious. https://twitter.com/harikunzru/status...

"Mike Pence you repressed joyless would-be witchfinder, every time ..."

Thanks for posting this - it made my day!

Juliana wrote: "Another Twitter thread of his that might interest folks is this one, where he talks about Wannsee, where Red Pill is set, and some of his inspirations.

That's fascinating, thank you! (That picture of the engaged couple...So haunting.)

I wish I could have dinner with him.

An unsettling book. The ending captures completely the unmoored feeling of horror I felt when Trump won in 2016. Even though things seem to be looking a bit better right now (one day before Biden's inauguration), the creeping fascism and authoritarianism of our time is terrifying.

Kunzru, with this book and White Tears, manages to write horror novels about real things that can't be dismissed.

Eric wrote: "Kunzru, with this book and White Tears, manages to write horror novels about real things that can't be dismissed."

Gosh that's such a good way of putting it!

I struggled with this book, and maybe categorizing it as a "horror novel about real things" would explain my struggle. It was uncomfortable, and I often didn't understand what was happening or what Kunzru was trying to do with the book. I respect what I did but I'm not sure this was the book for me right now.

I finished this the day before Biden was sworn it. Seems fitting.
I don't think "like" is the right word for how I feel about this book. I do think it was well written and there is a lot to talk about.

Audra, exact same! Same on the timing, and same on the feelings.

Melanie wrote: "Audra, exact same! Same on the timing, and same on the feelings."

This book would have made me so much more anxious had I read it before November 2020. I wonder how well it will accordingly hold up in the future since it is a little bit tied to this exact moment we live in now.

Ruthiella wrote: "Melanie wrote: "Audra, exact same! Same on the timing, and same on the feelings."

This book would have made me so much more anxious had I read it before November 2020. I wonder how well it will ac..."

I had a similar thought, but I also know the issues, and those types of people, aren't going to go away anytime soon (if ever.) It'll probably be just as relevant years from now.

I did read it before the election, and had to put it down several times. I was completely haunted and miserable while reading it, but at the same time it was easily one of my favorites...I just thought it was so brilliantly done, reflecting this period of time so perfectly. It helped me think through everything we've been through, in a way I guess I needed (without realizing I needed it.)

I'm struggling with this one, I'm 100 pages in and I find the narrator so irritating that I'm not very interested in continuing. I'm trying to stick it out because I know from brief summaries that more will happen but I just do not care about this guy. Is it worth it? It sounds like from the above reviews it gets pretty dark, I already find myself skimming over the violent descriptions of television--I assume the author is laying that groundwork for a reason but I don't feel the need to subject myself to it right now.

Mandy wrote: "I'm struggling with this one, I'm 100 pages in and I find the narrator so irritating that I'm not very interested in continuing. I'm trying to stick it out because I know from brief summaries that ..."
If it's hurting you, Mandy, you should stop -- you can always read it at a different time in life. It does get darker and darker for quite a while, though it lifts at the end.

Mandy, for what it's worth, I think the novel was very good, but it never gets less unsettling and if you're struggling with it, you should set it aside and read something else.

So I've lived in Germany for a stretch and while it was in a different part of the country, Munich certainly carries its history and can feel overwhelming sometimes. And I've spent time in Berlin. So a lot of what the narrator was feeling, I could relate to although he certainly leaned into his feelings in an unhealthy way. Germany also has different rules and expectations than Americans are used to and it was interesting to watch someone react in the most entitled way possible instead of trying to figure out what was going on. Berlin in winter is gray, gray, gray.

I could not stop reading this one while at the same time I deeply disliked the narrator and was never able to shed my antipathy towards him, which made reading it easier in a way because I did not care what he did to himself.

I did like that grace note at the end. It didn't come close to balancing out everything that happened before that moment, but it was something at least.

I am 75% through with this book and I usually don't like getting spoiled but I came here to find some inspiration to finish it, or permission to not. It seems from the comments he doesn't murder his whole family at the end so I'm going to soldier on.
It reminds me a lot of the movie Parasite. Weird plot shifts for no apparent reason and gratuitous violence. But the writing is so good.

Karen wrote: "I am 75% through with this book and I usually don't like getting spoiled but I came here to find some inspiration to finish it, or permission to not. It seems from the comments he doesn't murder hi..."

I really encourage finishing the book! I think it's one where the ending impacts how you view the whole text, though I will admit to enjoying the whole reading experience. And (view spoiler)[no, he doesn't murder his family! (hide spoiler)]

Well, I finished Red Pill and I am glad I did. Strange and intriguing book. I liked what it had to say about some mental illness being generated from society - whenever I see people on social media bringing up their anxiety or depression, I always think, don't be so hard on yourself, the world is stressful and depressing and yes, your future is tenuous at best. Those are appropriate responses!
Also, liked the idea that all those tv shows glorifying narcissistic men (Breaking Bad, The Shield, Mad Men) had an effect. Strange that he never mentioned Russia, tho.

It reminded me of my response to the early days of the pandemic. I was definitely a canary in a coalmine, I had anxiety attacks in February and early March of last year, once even going to the ER, because NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING! Once they started locking things down, I still had anxiety but I was at home for a few months so it helped. Now I'm just kinda used to it. (Never got used to Trump, tho.)

Wow that book sure ended in a different place than where I thought we were going!

I finished this yesterday, and I think reading it post November 2020 was slightly easier than if I had read it before the last election. It was a lot, and felt meandering at times, but I thought the ending pulled it together pretty well.

I am listening to this audiobook now. Disclaimer: I have not read White Tears or anything else by this author. I can't figure out why people like it. I find it boring and I hate how it's all told instead of shown, even the dialogue is summarized!

I am at about 50% so the maid Monica just finished telling her story. I guess I found it a little more interesting than the guy's parts about not being able to write while at the fellowship, but not by much.

What am I missing? I guess this is something having to do with ME. I used to love literary fiction but now I'm wondering if I have read too much genre fiction that I want more action and entertainment or something. Or maybe I'm not smart enough to understand some great underpinnings to this story.

I only have 3 hours left to listen to and I don't like to DNF so I am going to push through but I just don't have much motivation to keep listening to it and am only doing it because it's a TOB book. haha

Anita wrote: "I am listening to this audiobook now. Disclaimer: I have not read White Tears or anything else by this author. I can't figure out why people like it. I find it boring and I hate how it's all told i..."

I suspect your patience as a reader might depend entirely on if you've read and liked him before. If this had been my first experience, nope.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I suspect your patience as a reader might depend entirely on if you've read and liked him before. If this had been my first experience, nope.."

I absolutely agree with Jenny. He's one of my favorite authors and for me this book was the most challenging (in a good way) but it's a book that wants to make you feel disturbed. The Newest Literary Fiction group had a discussion thread for this book earlier in the year, and it really helped me gain a deeper understanding of it. Reading the discussion might be a good enough substitute for anyone who doesn't want to read it but wants some clues about it going into the Tournament.