Sci-Fi, fantasy and speculative Indie Authors Review discussion

I had a conversation with one of my friends recently about this, and I was just wondering what other folks thought about:

a) where Epic fantasy is currently

b) where it should go in the future

I feel like this topic would be relevant to indie writers in particular since we have that freedom to kind of go where ever we want in the story, so I guess I was just curious if anyone had any ideas on this topic or book recommendations to illustrate what changes to the genre you would like.

(On a side note, I guess I'm asking this because I noticed when I was searching for agents that a lot of them didn't like epic fantasy, and I was wondering if that could be changed somehow.)


[Also, I apologize if this is in the wrong folder. I don't really know where it should go.]

Hi CE, I see that no one actually commented on this topic & it's super-interesting (I wish I'd seen it sooner).

Epic fantasy has always had a strong YA/coming-of-age vibe, with adult variations trending towards more macho action/adventure style dramas.

Urban fantasy has fallen into a "feisty" underdog heroine / arrogant, powerful hero trope within romantic, mystery, or thriller plotlines. It's hard to find "epic" urban fantasies -- though Ilona Andrews has taken a stab in the Kate Daniels series (which I admit, I couldn't get into. But since I loved the Iron Covenant, I'm planning to give it a read).

I love "big books" that are character-focused & less action-adventure, but those aren't very commercial.

So if you were writing for my taste, I'd love to see reimagined settings where women aren't subordinate and there was more to the politics than a black/white, good vs. evil struggle. I'd love to see something other than war or quest to define the clash of civilizations.

A non-misogynist society in epic fantasy is hard to find. It's not clear to me why every epic fantasy needs to create worlds where men are dominant to women, even when most authors today cast a few women in positions of power (priestesses/rulers/sorcerers, etc.).

I do love Lois Bujold McMaster's Chalion series -- NOT coming-of-age fantasy focused on a war/quest, but women are still subordinated.

It's as if the only way authors can imagine worlds where women aren't on the bottom is if they write sci-fi. Be nice if someone just flipped every character's gender in their first-draft medeivel-esque fantasy and tried to publish that. Except I don't think it would sell because most epic fantasy readers are male.

What kind of epic fantasies do you want to read?

Best,
Laura

Thank you for that well thought out response.

I think I'd agree on most of your parts. Although, I, myself, am guilty of writing a male-dominated world, but I did it deliberately as the world was supposed to be a dystopian fantasy. (My thoughts at the time were that I was getting a bit annoyed at the over romanticisation of the past, and I didn't want to portray it in a good light.) Although, I did get bothered by some aspects of my own book a bit later and wrote a prequel with mostly female characters.

That ramble being said, I do agree. I would love to see a fantasy where women aren't subordinate or don't equal just romance or if the all-female societies aren't just some weird fantasy. However, I think most people (myself included) tend to be a bit unfairly selective in what is "historical" and what is "fantastical" so that the world feels fantasy. I guess what I mean by that is that misogyny is a bit of a feature of the "time period" but I don't think that it should be necessarily-- it is a fantastical world, after all. Not that I think things such as racism or misogyny should not be portrayed, but I agree it is too prevalent.

As for what I'd like to see, I'd say my biggest annoyance is the youth-focused literature. I don't mind some coming-of-age, but I think the stuff has glutted the market. And there is a bit of an implication in that, that your life is over after your teenage years, which is absolutely not true. I'd love to see more middle aged or elderly protagonists that have a story of their own that isn't, in any way, about trying to regain their youth. Adding on that, I'd love to see protagonists who have real flaws (physical/mental/cultural) that they have to overcome or live with, such as a handicap or non-romanticised mental illness.

Other things I would like to see more are myths from different cultures as the backbone (I think I've seen some, but I haven't got around to reading them yet), less focus on action (as you've mentioned), and a change in the way some people are described (I'm talking about the way certain races are described and the connotations of certain words, i.e. fair (good), dark eyes (evil), exotic
. . . etc.)

So, I suppose, my ideal fantasy would be something long with poetic language, a deep past-not overly explained, more mystery-than action, strong characters, good friendships (especially between male and female), humorous, but dark, some action (but can be mental/physical) and a true journey, in the sense that something inside the characters have changed along the way.

(On a side note, I really wish the "simple sentences are the best" thing would die. I hate reading stuff written like that.)

So that's my take on it.
C. E.

(Side-side note, an epic modern fantasy sounds interesting -- might check out that book series you mentioned.)

C.E. wrote: my biggest annoyance is the youth-focused literature"
We're two peas in a pod! I mean how many 'girl discovers she has magic, goes to magic school', and 'errant princeling must suddenly grow up and restore his kingdom' books do we need? I think you'd like the Chalion series & maybe the Priest of Bones for adult characters.

In terms of poetic language ... it's necromancers in space, but it's more fantasy than sci-fi, imo -- Gideon the Ninth was something new, though again, the characters are 25-year-olds.

I'd like to see other ways of describing people, too! Like a world where the standards of beauty are really different from our own (and not just the paranormal women's fiction trope of the "curvy" heroine). Sherwood Smith does it a little bit in her Indra/Banner of the Dammed books, but she writes YA.

I also hate simple sentences! But then, I loved Dostoyevsky & Henry James. I think the trend is for short because it sells better. A big, complex book is not for everyone & I suspect that the readers who want that kind of story are somewhat snobby (present company excluded of course ;), so those kinds of books have to be more "perfect." It's a lot easier to sell an action-adventure fantasy than a complex story with difficult language. I mean, consider erotica -- no one really demands a great plotline/characterization for that.

I like slow-burn, character-focused stories. Sharon Shinn's Elemental Blessings & Mystic & Rider series trend YA & are heavy on the clean/wholesome romance, but I love the characters. The Goblin Emperor is also a deep book -- but again, YA! The glut of16-25 year-old MCs is why I started writing in the first place. I just couldn't find the story I wanted to read.

Anyway, I see your book Inna is on KU & I'm going to check it out :)

LMK if you have some recommendations for me -- I could use a new book.

Best,
Laura

Hmm. That's a lot of new books to add to my "want-to-read" list. :) Thank you.

I'll try to think of some books to recommend, but I'm just kind of blanking right now. (I suppose it's because I've mostly been reading free books.)

One novella that I just thought of has beautiful language, but is only 30 pages long was Whispers to a Crow by Trisan Gray. Island Girl by Aino Lahteva has a strong female protagonist and interesting philosophies. I recently discovered Anasi Boys by Neil Gaimen and loved it. I recall enjoying Sabriel by Garth Nix as a child, but that's probably YA. The earth sea books, I enjoyed as well. That's about all I can think of right now. I think I need to do more reading!

Thank you for checking my book out! By the way, Inna might not be the best book, if you wanted no oppressive society, because it is still set in that dystopian world and country. I am working on a book in that's set in a different country, but it's a long ways away.

C. E.

I also saw that your book had an older protagonist set in an interesting world. I might give it a look as well. :)

Laura wrote: "C.E. wrote: my biggest annoyance is the youth-focused literature"
We're two peas in a pod! I mean how many 'girl discovers she has magic, goes to magic school', and 'errant princeling must suddenly..."

I wholly agree with you about youth focussed. I have a problem with this in my Wolves of Vimar series (which, incidentally is not a male dominated society).
Looking at my sales in Germany, France, Spain and India, I found it coming up in Children's categories. It certainly is NOT a children's series. I think some people think that because it has magic, elves and other creatures it must be for children.
I am an adult. I enjoy fantasy, but not where all characters are youngsters 'coming of age'. That's been done to death.
I have written a duo of YA books, but I hope it's not a cliche like many others.

C.E. wrote: "Thank you for that well thought out response.

I think I'd agree on most of your parts. Although, I, myself, am guilty of writing a male-dominated world, but I did it deliberately as the world was..."

Long words and sentences, yes, I agree. If you run your work through Grammarly, it will say 'sentence difficult to understand' if it has more than 5 or 6 words. Most times it's perfectly clear.
There is a dumbing down of writing, I'm afraid to say. We are told not to use a long word if there's a shorter one, not to use long paragraphs because readers like a lot of white space, not to go into a lot of detail in description etc. etc.
Dickens is famed for his descriptions. Jane Austin is a well-loved writer who writes long sentences ( I counted one with well over 100 words).
We are also told not to use passive voice, which Austin does quite a lot, and not to 'tell', which many of the writers we admire do.
It's all a part of the regression to the mean. We are encouraging readers not to have to think. We need action, not thoughts in our writing, we are told.
Sadly, though, if we are to sell, and/or get published we need to obey at least some of these 'rules'.

V.M. wrote: "Long words and sentences, yes, I agree."

These days, I see more creative use of language, poetic speech & storylines in Sci-Fi than fantasy (epic & urban). Maybe that's due to the sheer oversaturation of the fantasy market.

What if we had a new sub-genre for literary/poetic/ADULT epic fantasy that sets it apart from all the coming of age, sword & sorceress, D&D/gaming tie-in, action/adventure? I would have thought "mystical fantasy" might be a good bet, but if you look through the "mystical" top 100 on Amazon, that's not the case.

If you were creating a new sub-genre for "literary/poetic/ADULT" fantasy, what would you call it?

V.M. wrote: There is a dumbing down of writing, I'm afraid to say.

My personal conjecture on this is that people have been trying to mimic the film experience in written form. (Quick scene changes = short chapters, emphasis on dialogue = movie script/play) Also most of the time, if someone really likes a book, they'll say something along the lines of "That should be made into a movie!" as if the original work was not enough. I, myself, find this thought joggling around inside my mind as well, and it's no wonder, we are visual creatures, but I think it's best to let certain art forms do what they do best. Film can have the short, flashy cut scenes, but writing is made with words, so those words should be played with - not abandoned. Not that short sentences should always be avoided at all costs, but again, this is a matter of something being overdone.

As for Laura's question, I'd probably just combine all those criteria into some monster of a name such as Litpoad or something. (Haha)

Great discussions here, though! Loving the thoughts

V.M. wrote: "Looking at my sales in Germany, France, Spain and India, I found it coming up in Children's categories...."

That's messed-up. Did you know there's a way you can get Amazon to remove/add categories? The help folk have a special template for that (something I only learned a few months ago). The annoying thing is that you have to give them categories for each marketplace and paperback/ebook separately. So it's a bit of a slog to map out.

V.M. wrote: There is a dumbing down of writing, I'm afraid to say. ... Sadly, though, if we are to sell, and/or get published we need to obey at least some of these 'rules'.

I fear I may need to obey more of those rules. I write “metaphysical sci-fi” in what I think of as a techno-poetic style. I include enough physics and mathematics to make the story reasonable before stepping over the edge into the metaphysical, fiction, fantasy parts. Some friends who have read my works think the true parts are too difficult. I reply that those sections should be read as poetry. There is no test at the end. But my titles should give a clue as to the content: Schroedinger’s Cheshire Cats, Peturbations of the Reality Field, Time Travelers Are Schizophrenic.

As far as the types of characters, I am currently writing about a female spider, a hermaphrodite lemur, and an old crow. Yes, they are alien creatures in a strange universe, where different species won the evolutionary and cultural race on different planets.