All About Books discussion

Discuss our winner here...

I am in for this read.

Her very best!!!!
Can't miss it

I agree with Laura - her best! I look forward to rereading it with you all.

I liked her North and South very much and thought that was the best. Gaskell died suddenly without completing the final chapter in 1855. I think this fact takes away the crown from this work.

You may be right Nidhi; still I think it was pretty clear what she intended for a final of the book.
We'll see it together!

Personally I felt that North and South ‘s ending was abrupt. I was looking forward to get a glimpse of main characters’s domestic life after their marriage also some solution for reunion of Brother and sister.
Can’t wait to start this one.

I'm looking forward to reading this.

Thank you for the recommendation. I was looking for a new book. I'm sure I will enjoy this. Will let you know once I've read it. Best wishes to all fellow readers

I have acquired (really can't say "purchased" because it was free) the e-book from Amazon and will be joining in.

I’m looking forward to starting this, I also got the kindle book for free.

I'll be joining in on this one. I loved North and South, but haven't read this before. I also have a kindle edition and I've borrowed an audio to listen to as well.

Yes, I love Elizabeth Gaskell. I will join you for this.

I really enjoyed this one, look forward to the discussion.

I was introduced to Gaskell with Mary Barton, which was definitely a social problem novel. I really enjoyed North and South, which is more balanced and am looking forward to Wives and Daughters as a rather gentler story.

Suzanne wrote: "I was introduced to Gaskell with Mary Barton, which was definitely a social problem novel. I really enjoyed North and South, which is more balanced and am looking forward to Wives and Daughters as ..."

I will need to read that as well.

My favourite by her. But I'm starting not before the end of this month!!! I'll catch up though

LauraT wrote: "My favourite by her. But I'm starting not before the end of this month!!! I'll catch up though"

LOL - I just came to this thread to say the exact same thing!

Leslie wrote: "LauraT wrote: "My favourite by her. But I'm starting not before the end of this month!!! I'll catch up though"

LOL - I just came to this thread to say the exact same thing!"

We're real kindred spirits!!!!

One author I had wanted to read for years.

Jade wrote: "One author I had wanted to read for years."

I definitely recommend her Jade.

I started this yesterday and found it interesting just like North and South, theme and character of the main protagonist is different from the usual Victorian or Austen’s novels .

Jade wrote: "One author I had wanted to read for years."

Then jpyin us: this is really one of her best - my favourite as already said!
I hope to start before I had planned; in a week or so

I really enjoyed this one. An absorbing escape from Covid worries. See my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...-

I managed to get a copy of this book on audiobook, I’m looking forward to starting this one.

Jade wrote: "I managed to get a copy of this book on audiobook, I’m looking forward to starting this one."

I'll be listening to it as well; starting in 2/3 days I hope

I also may start in a few days. I had planned to start later in the month but I am feeling the need to read something that will absorb me to take my mind off of current events. I know this book can do that!

I started this yesterday and though it has been 7-8 years since I last read it, I immediately felt antipathy to 'Clare' (as Mrs. Kilpatrick is called in the early parts of the book). How old would you say Molly was in that early section (Chapter 2?) when she goes to the manor house? I couldn't tell but am thinking 6 or 7 years old...

Leslie wrote: "I started this yesterday and though it has been 7-8 years since I last read it, I immediately felt antipathy to 'Clare' (as Mrs. Kilpatrick is called in the early parts of the book). How old would ..."

Started this morning, just the first chapter from Librivox! Abour Clare I'll tell tomorrow!

I'm late to the party but I'll join as well, had this book on my TBR since forever

I am going to try, as well.
(This December, I had 'Rebecca' as a Group Read allll over the site; and it has made me accomplish a *fantastic reading goal* over the holidays and so 'Wives & Daughters' now looks...appealing rather than daunting, you know?) --Jen from Quebec :0)

Leslie wrote: "...How old would you say Molly was in that early section (Chapter 2?) when she goes to the manor house? I couldn't tell but am thinking 6 or 7 years old..."

Leslie, I wondered that too and couldn't find it in the text. However I read in a friend's review and elsewhere online that Molly was 12. From the description and her reactions I also thought she might be younger. Perhaps we can attribute that to an age in which childhood was viewed differently and children were protected from society in general retaining their innocence and naiveté longer? Just a thought.

Katherine wrote: "Leslie wrote: "...How old would you say Molly was in that early section (Chapter 2?) when she goes to the manor house? I couldn't tell but am thinking 6 or 7 years old..."

Leslie, I wondered that ..."

Perhaps, though I think that protection was variable depending upon the class/monetary situation of the family. Molly wasn't of the upper class (nor of the moneyed "cits", as wealthy merchants were called in that time) but she wasn't of the lower class (peasant or worker class) so it is unclear to me what level of protection she had.

Clearly, though, now that I am about halfway through when Molly is 17 or so, she has an innocence that would be remarkable today. I guess that I believe that some of that is the different time and some to Molly's character & upbringing. For example, I don't think Cynthia is anywhere near as innocent as Molly!

And that brings up a question - do you readers think that Molly is "too good to be true" - somewhat of a caricature - or is her outlook believable to you?

Leslie wrote: "Perhaps, though I think that protection was variable depending upon the class/monetary situation of the family. Molly wasn't of the upper class (nor of the moneyed "cits", as wealthy merchants were called in that time) but she wasn't of the lower class (peasant or worker class) so it is unclear to me what level of protection she had"

I'd say rather high, if consider also how her father shelters her from his pupils!!! I think that 12 is more probable. at 6 years I don't think that the Miss Brownings wuold have left her alone to meander in the garden - let alone left and gone away without her.
And yes, Clare is really insufferable: to forget a child like that! Right from the start one understands how things are going to go

Leslie wrote: "Katherine wrote: "Leslie wrote: "...How old would you say Molly was in that early section (Chapter 2?) when she goes to the manor house? I couldn't tell but am thinking 6 or 7 years old..."

Leslie..."
I really do think Molly is too good to be true. While her innocence of her father's apprentice's amorous intentions is understandable, her lack of acknowledgement, one might even say repression, of her own feelings for Roger, and her generosity to her step-sister, even when she knows that she doesn't feel strongly for Roger and will hurt him with her callousness, are difficult to accept.

I too thought Molly was 6 or 7 when she accidentally slept in gathering but she was 16 actually. Everybody was treating her like a child, even a 14 years old girl can eat by herself and she had a governess also at home.

So I finished today - although it is disappointing not to have (view spoiler)[Gaskell's own ending, the afterword (as I guess it should be called?) by Frederick Greenwood, Gaskell's editor, answers all the readers' questions. (hide spoiler)]

@Suzanne - I can understand that feeling that Molly is "too good to be true". In some ways she comes across as a caricature of what a "good" daughter should be. However, while there may have been some work on Gaskell's part to make her that stereotype, I think that sort of meekness by women was not uncommon in the 1800s (in the U.S. as well as the U.K. & I am sure other countries as well). It was viewed as the appropriate way for women to behave - one reason that the suffragette movement was such an affront to men just a few decades later.

I think it is hard for us to understand the innocence, ignorance and naivety of teenage girls in Molly’s “class “ in the 1830s. Girls grow up so quickly now and are exposed to so much blatant sexuality. Molly has grown up not going to school but taught at home sheltered from the world by her nurse and governess. The contact with her fathers’s apprentices was formal and very limited. It’s also known that puberty in early C19 often started much later for many young women, I don’t remember the reason for this but recall reading it somewhere . “Courting” as we see even from Dr Gibson’s sudden decision to ask Mrs Kirkpatrick to marry him was often a very minimal business among the emerging middle classes. This is what makes Molly and Roger’s burgeoning friendship so powerful but fragile. Neither are consciously thinking of “love” but so far they have been under the radar of the anxious adults.

I also think that Elizabeth Gaskell in her capacity as a clergy wife and in her friendships was in a good position to glean stories from an earlier generation and to be a witness to a great variety of experience of women’s lives. I feel there is a deep authenticity to her writing... her characters are surely drawn from people she knew well or knew a lot about.

Tweedledum wrote: "I think it is hard for us to understand the innocence, ignorance and naivety of teenage girls in Molly’s “class “ in the 1830s. Girls grow up so quickly now and are exposed to so much blatant sexua..."

Yes, that was what I was trying to express but you put it much better!

I enjoyed this book immensely. Thank you Tweedledum and Leslie for your thoughts. I felt that the inner life of these characters was wonderfully well developed, and felt an intimacy with them and their community. I enjoyed North and South, but Wives and Daughters was even better for me. The story seems quite realistic, and although Molly is perhaps idealized, her feelings of being overlooked in favor of her beautiful step sister are as relevant today as when they were written. If Molly is a bit of a caricature of female virtue, do you think Roger is something of a stereotype of manliness?

Nidhi wrote: "I too thought Molly was 6 or 7 when she accidentally slept in gathering but she was 16 actually. Everybody was treating her like a child, even a 14 years old girl can eat by herself and she had a g..."

Molly was eleven at the time of gathering (hinted in a later chapter), hence a child (motherless )among strangers.

I started this last night and have really enjoyed the first few chapters. This is my first Gaskell and also, I think, my first time reading a book set in the pre-industrial northern England!

For those asking Molly's age she is definitely 12 at the beginning of the novel. A few pages in we have this line

Molly had lived twelve long years without the occurrence of any event so great as that which was now impending

Oh thanks Jess for that confirmation from the text! Glad to hear you are enjoying your first Gaskell :)

Steve wrote: "... The story seems quite realistic, and although Molly is perhaps idealized, her feelings of being overlooked in favor of her beautiful step sister are as relevant today as when they were written. If Molly is a bit of a caricature of female virtue, do you think Roger is something of a stereotype of manliness?..."

The differences between Roger and Osborne both in their attributes and the way they are treated by others (particularly their parents) I felt was a deliberate attempt to contrast what Gaskell felt was true manliness (Roger) and the type of masculinity admired by society (Osborne) which was weaker and of lesser worth. Of course, Osborne is at a little bit of a disadvantage because we (the readers & Molly) don't get to know him until he had already tumbled from the pedestal his parents had placed him on...

A long-winded way of saying "yes" to your question!

There is the same sort of contrast between Molly & Cynthia - between the 'true virtue' and the characteristics that society lauds, I mean.

As usual I'm going through this long book slowly better to appreciate it!!!
Poor Molly: I've now arrived when her father said to her she was going to re-marry!!!
It reminded me so much of traditional fairy tales - such as Snow White or Cinderella: the second marriage done in the name of the better life of the daughter!!!!!

LauraT wrote: "It reminded me so much of traditional fairy tales - such as Snow White or Cinderella: the second marriage done in the name of the better life of the daughter!!!!!..."

Yes, me too - though Hyacinth isn't such a wicked stepmother as in those stories thankfully!

not that bad, you're right. But as heartless.

LauraT wrote: "not that bad, you're right. But as heartless."

Along those lines I was thinking about both Molly and Mrs. Gibson and what a contrast they are to each other. While each has a demeanor of sweetness, Molly's is genuine and Hyacinth's is simply an act to cover her innate selfishness.

Case in point is their first encounter at the party when Molly was a child. Hyacinth pretends to be caring and benevolent toward Molly though in reality she eats the food brought for Molly to regain strength and then leads everyone to think Molly's eaten it; she puts Molly to rest in her own bed and then promptly forgets about her even though she has promised to waken her.

Mrs. Gibson isn't cruel like the stepmothers in Snow White and Cinderella however she is changeable, false, and, like you said, heartless.

Katherine wrote: "LauraT wrote: "not that bad, you're right. But as heartless."

Along those lines I was thinking about both Molly and Mrs. Gibson and what a contrast they are to each other. While each has a demeano..."

Exactly!

She's mainly selfish - consider her relationship with her daughter!