The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Please note, this discussion does not start until January 1. I’m listing the chapter titles for clarity.

Monkshaven
Home from Greenland
Buying a New Cloak
Philip Hepburn
Story of the Press-gang
The Sailor’s Funeral
Tête-à-tête - The Will

My apologies. This last week life has thrown me several curve balls, and did so again today 🤦‍♀️. Discussion material will be posted tomorrow. Once again, my apologies

We are in Monkshaven, a port town where smuggling is a common every day practice. As typical with Gaskell, we have a strong sense of the town, it’s people, and the area. There, like most towns, is a social strata of several levels determined by wealth and position in the community.

The whaling ship is arriving into port, with loved ones anxiously waiting reconciliation with the sailors. An air of celebration abounds but is shattered by the arrival of the press gang. As details become clear, several deaths occur from this melee.

Questions to get us started are below. As always any opinions and comments about the book (so far), the author, etc. are welcomed.

What do you think of the characters so far?

What stood out to you in these chapters?

Why does Philip support the press gangs? Should he?

What do you notice about the relationships between the characters?

One thing I like about Gaskell is that she often focuses on characters who are either poor, or not poor but not rich either. It's a nice break from novels that focus on aristocrats.

One thing I kind of dislike is her overuse of "dialect." It gets distracting and makes the book difficult to read. There were times, especially when Sylvia's father was telling stories, that I couldn't understand everything. There's also quite a lot of info-dumping, which makes it easy to forget details later.

Sylvia initially struck me as someone who would really get on my nerves in real life, and then I remembered she was only 17 and felt bad about thinking that. I do have a feeling she will undergo a lot of character development over the book. All of the characters are well-written. I think we can all "see" them, and we know people like them, right?

I can see that Charley Kinraid is going to play a large part, probably as a romantic interest of one or more women (along with maybe more adventures with the press-gangs and/or the law), and I wonder if Hester's mother's lodger (I've forgotten his name) is right about his history with women, or if it was a misunderstanding.

The first word that came to mind regarding Philip is "prig." He's not a bad person, but he see things as black and white and lacks the imagination to see others' perspectives. He's also rather dull, and I can see why someone as lively as Sylvia wouldn't want him as a suitor (and why her less lively mother would).

And, by the way, it may be a little thing, but I'm glad she chose the red cloth!

I'm looking forward to the rest of the book!

The red cloth really symbolized an independent streak in Syria, which given the time period and what we know of her society, would be not an easy choice.

Yes dialect is difficult, and always slows the story down for me. Sometimes if I try to say it out loud, slowly, it ends up making more sense.

Last year (2020) almost all the Victorian novels I read featured passages with dialect. It seems hard to avoid!

I am trying to look for words that are similar in Danish (in what they say in Monkshaven). (I am Danish.) Someone once told me that fishermen met in the North Sea between England and Denmark and had some language in common. :) Have already found a couple.

Lori wrote: "One thing I like about Gaskell is that she often focuses on characters who are either poor, or not poor but not rich either. It's a nice break from novels that focus on aristocrats.

One thing I k..."

I also felt that way about the dialect-while I appreciate it might be used as a marker for class or standing in a town, given that the characters we meet so far are mostly of the same class, I'd have preferred a more natural speech-they don't hear each other with an accent and I find it colours my understanding of the characters.

Good point about Charlie-it's unusual to have "heroes" who are not good overall, so I hope it has been a misunderstanding. Also, I have a lot of sympathy with characters of this time changing their mind about someone they are courting-so often there doesn't seem to be a chance to back out gracefully for all involved if you realize that the person you initially found attractive isn't someone who will suit you after all.

I am only partway through but was delighted to feel on familiar territory. This is the time of the Poldark series in Cornwall, where smuggling was also a regular activity and there was concern that the French Revolution would spread to other countries. It's also around the team of the Aubrey/Maturin seafaring stories, although this is before the Napoleonic wars. I have learned and retained so much more history from fiction than from any history class!

I enjoyed Gaskell's portrayals of kindness in her minor characters. There are the Quaker brothers (Ch 3) who ran the shop and who wouldn't close the shop for religious reasons on Christmas day, but who served in the shop themselves so their employees could have the day off. They served cake and wine to their customers on New Years day, and ran a little side business in no interest banking for the town.

There was Sylvia and Kester conspiring to get the tailor up to keep her father company.

Even the vicar Dr Wilson, who couldn't bring himself to preach against the press gangs, but who would send broth and vegetables to old Ralph Thompson, a rabid independent, who had been given to abusing the Church and the vicar, from a Dissenting pulpit, as long as ever he could mount the stairs.

Finally, there was a small bit of foreshadowing when we read of Sylvia's parents concern and love for their only child, and how her mother or father would watch for her whenever she was late. Once on her return, when her mother has seen her and then pretended she hadn't been watching... But Sylvia had noted the watching not three minutes before, and many a time in her after life, when no one cared much for her out-goings and in-comings, the straight upright figure of her mother, fronting the setting sun, but searching through its blinding rays for a sight of her child, rose up like a sudden-seen picture, the remembrance of which smote Sylvia to the heart with a sense of a lost blessing, not duly valued while possessed.

Frances wrote: "I enjoyed Gaskell's portrayals of kindness in her minor characters. There are the Quaker brothers (Ch 3) who ran the shop and who wouldn't close the shop for religious reasons on Christmas day, but..."

Right, that's another departure from much of the literature from this period - both of Sylvia's parents are still alive, as are Molly's. But unfortunately, you may be right about the foreshadowing. I didn't note it when reading.

In the early Middle Ages Yorkshire was ruled by the Danes and many Yorkshire dialect words come from Old Norse. T’ for The is a common feature of Yorkshire dialect. Personally I like it. Would anyone prefer Huckleberry Finn in ‘correct’ English? You can find a Yorkshire translator on Google.

I don't know if there is an audio version of this book, but I find that often helps with dialect. It was wonderful for Precious Bane and Their Eyes Were Watching God. Both are out of our time period but they are written with a lot of dialect that is challenging on the page but sounds natural when well pronounced.

Robin P wrote: "I am only partway through but was delighted to feel on familiar territory. This is the time of the Poldark series in Cornwall, where smuggling was also a regular activity and there was concern that..."

Do to the timeframe, I too was using Poldark as my base for visualizing things just transferring the smuggling from the far southwest corner to the northeast corner of England. This one may have a less rural setting.

I can see the storyline developing and, while I normally find Gaskell easy to read, the dialect makes this one tough going at times. Yes, there is such dialect in many Victorian novels and some 21st century books like Precious Bane, a book set in the slightly later Napoleonic war period which I read in 2020. I find the dialect here more difficult. The dialect is why I did not enjoy Their Eyes Were Watching God and may be why this is one of Gaskell's least read novels.
I expect difficult dialect with Scottish novels like Kidnapped and Catriona but did not with Yorkshire. However, I appreciate Bill's explanation of the dialect here as I'm currently watching a fictionalized version of what he is talking about. Yesterday, I watched the first episode of the second season of the NETFLIX series "The Last Kingdom" which takes place in late 9th Century England. In the episode, the hero, after helping King Alfred fight the Danes off in Wessex in season one. has travelled to the city now known as York which is ruled by the Danes. The hero is born a Northumberland Saxon but raised by Danes.

Just a note. We can slow down the pace a bit if we are finding the dialect to be time consuming. As mention by others, many books have dialect. The one that comes to my mine is Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Deborah wrote: "Just a note. We can slow down the pace a bit if we are finding the dialect to be time consuming. As mention by others, many books have dialect. The one that comes to my mine is [book:Tess of the D'..."

Please don't make the pace any slower. The dialect may affect my understanding but not the number of pages I read that much. l'll have continuity problems if the pace gets any slower than 80 pages a week as I'll have to go days between reading sessions,
I have little problem with Thomas Hardy's dialect, even in Under the Greenwood Tree. He is my favorite author.

The pace is fine for me too.

'Weel may the keel row, the keel row, the keel row, Weel may the keel row that my laddie's in!'

There’s a wonderful version of ‘The Keel Row’ sung by the great English contralto Kathleen Ferrier on YouTube. Apparently it’s a Newcastle song. The tune is used as a quick-march in the British army.

I kept hearing in my head a song Pete Seeger sings called, "Well may the world go, the world go, the world go". I'll have to check if it's the same tune.

Sailing and singing go together, both for work songs and entertainment. There is much mention of music in the Patrick O'Brian series I mentioned above and the young people's equivalent by L.A. Meyer. In the latter, a girl dresses as a boy and runs away to sea because it is her best option. She ends up traveling the world and observing most of the Napoleonic Wars. You have to suspend disbelief but it's especially wonderful on audio, where there is always some singing.

I think the pace is fine, even if the reading is a little slower going than some other books.

I like the portrayal of Sylvia. I think it is realistic that a teenage girl could be carried away with the emotion and drama of the funeral and the wounded man, even though she really was an outsider. We find that Sylvia can't really read much and local gossip takes the place of literature, and of the modern internet for her.

Robin P wrote: "...Sailing and singing go together, both forwork songs and entertainment. There is much mention of music in the Patrick O'Brian series I mentioned above and the young people's equivalent by L.A. Meyer..."

One of Meyer's books is titled My Bonny Light Horseman, which is the title of a song from that era lamenting the death of a girl's lover killed in the wars. Its alternative title is 'Broken Hearted I Will Ramble'. Other similar songs are 'Lowlands of Holland', 'The Banks of the Nile' and 'The Recruited Collier'. Look for Kate Rusby's versions on YouTube. She speaks authentic Yorkshire dialect, by the way

'A cloak takes nine yards, at least,' said Philip, decisively.


This was my guess for the origin of the phrase ‘the whole nine yards’; cloth measure.

I was surprised that Sylvia and her mother didn't sew the cloak themselves. But maybe the fabric was too heavy for home sewing.

Bill wrote: "'A cloak takes nine yards, at least,' said Philip, decisively.
This was my guess for the origin of the phrase ‘the whole nine yards’; cloth measure."

This is what Wikipedia says about the phrase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_who...

Bill's guess is the first listed in the "Origin" section of the article.

Bill wrote: "'A cloak takes nine yards, at least,' said Philip, decisively.


This was my guess for the origin of the phrase ‘the whole nine yards’; cloth measure."

You made me curious so I looked it up. There seems to be various origins.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&r...

In the 18th century perfectly respectable folk bought smuggled goods if they could. They no more thought it a crime than most of us do to ignore paying sales tax on internet purchases. The smugglers were well organised and even had their own private navy to fight the revenue cutters. There’s a wonderful poem by Kipling called ‘The Smuggler’s Song’.

If you wake at midnight, and hear a horse's feet,
Don't go drawing back the blind, or looking in the street;
Them that ask no questions isn't told a lie.
Watch the wall, my darling, while the Gentlemen go by!

Five and twenty ponies,
Trotting through the dark —
Brandy for the Parson,
Baccy for the Clerk;
Laces for a lady, letters for a spy,
And watch the wall, my darling,
While the Gentlemen go by!

Many such old people set out betimes, on the Sunday afternoon to which Sylvia had been so looking forward, to scale the long flights of stone steps—worn by the feet of many generations—which led up to the parish church, placed on a height above the town, on a great green area at the summit of the cliff, which was the angle where the river and the sea met, and so overlooking both the busy crowded little town, the port, the shipping, and the bar on the one hand, and the wide illimitable tranquil sea on the other—types of life and eternity. It was a good situation for that church. Homeward-bound sailors caught sight of the tower of St Nicholas, the first land object of all.

I have been up and down the ‘Church Stairs,’ (traversed by Sylvia and her friend to the funeral) many times. Here is a bit more information about them.
https://www.thewhitbyguide.co.uk/whit...
The Church at the top is St Mary’s rather than St Nicholas’ but nevertheless the author’s description of it accurately portrays it as it looks today.

Sylvia’s motives for going to the funeral, which are revealed to us, reveal her character.
Sylvia had leisure in her heart to think 'how good Hester is for sitting with the poor bed-ridden sister of Darley!' without having a pang of self-depreciation in the comparison of her own conduct with that she was capable of so fully appreciating. She had gone to church for the ends of vanity, and remained to the funeral for curiosity and the pleasure of the excitement. In this way a modern young lady would have condemned herself, and therefore lost the simple, purifying pleasure of admiration of another.

Having been brought up by loving parents she wants to justify their pride in her. Unfortunately, her intelligence and yearning for excitement lead her to more rebellious thoughts and actions away from the humdrum life of the farm. Her red cloak has already become a symbol of her forthright and independent nature.

Philip is the man that Sylvia’s mother would like her to marry and it seems that Sylvia realises this. Her avoidance tactics and general dislike of being in his company indicate that it is the last thing that Silvia wants. The ‘hero’ Charlie Kinraid, is at the other end of the spectrum to Philip and it is he and the other young men of the whaling fleet that Sylvia is more attracted to. However we hear from William Coulson in chapter 7 that Charlie Kinraid has wronged his sister, and there are rumours that he has killed two sailors from the navy. Kinraid, even in his present weak state, has already looked past his cousin to stare at Sylvia during the funeral so Sylvia might soon be experiencing the excitement she yearns for.

Elizabeth Gaskell also included a lot of dialect in her first major novel, ‘Mary Barton,’ subtitled ‘A Tale of Manchester Life.’ The Lancashire (which included Manchester) dialect differs considerably from the Yorkshire dialect even though the two counties are only separated by a low range of hills named the ‘Pennine Chain.’ Many years ago I completed a thesis which included a study of the differences between the two dialects. Deborah pointed out in the Background research/information thread how Gaskell had researched about Whitby and the whalers. She also spent a lot of time on the Yorkshire dialect, even including words which Yorkshire folk would use but that Lancashire folk wouldn’t understand. I think that the author’s attention to detail in relation to the dialect increases both the realism and honesty of the characters.

In relation to smuggling I enjoyed Daniel’s description of the tobacco he was smoking
Why, look ye; this very baccy had a run for 't. It came ashore sewed up neatly enough i' a woman's stays, as was wife to a fishing-smack down at t' bay yonder. She were a lean thing as iver you saw, when she went for t' see her husband aboard t' vessel; but she coom back lustier by a deal, an' wi' many a thing on her, here and theere, beside baccy. An' that were i' t' face o' coast-guard and yon tender, an' a'. But she made as though she were tipsy, an' so they did nought but curse her, an' get out on her way.'

Bill wrote: "Robin P wrote: "...Sailing and singing go together, both forwork songs and entertainment. There is much mention of music in the Patrick O'Brian series I mentioned above and the young people's equiv..."

Kate Rusby has written a sea shanty of her own. ‘The Wild Goose’ Here it is :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6tVU...

For more traditional sea shanties we now have a touring band known as the ‘Fisherman’s Friends.’ They are based in Poldark country but travel far and wide singing both traditional and newly created modern versions for the fishermen today. Recently, their story was made into a feature film. Here is an example of their work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkNwh...

It is great to see these traditions continuing.

It’s interesting how music helps get the jobs done. Even today women sing songs at a particular rhythm while they work with cloth in Scotland.

Deborah wrote: "It’s interesting how music helps get the jobs done. Even today women sing songs at a particular rhythm while they work with cloth in Scotland."

I don’t indulge in social media but It seems that sea shanties are now becoming viral with the youth on Tik Tok. The one that sparked it all off came from a whaler.

https://www.vulture.com/2021/01/tikto...

There are several traditional songs easily found on YouTube specifically about the arctic whaling. 'The Greenland Whale Fishery,' 'The Cold Cold Coast of Greenland,' and my favourite, 'Farewell to Tarwathie'. The most familiar version of the last one was recorded by Judy Collins. I expect that Gaskill may have heard these and more.

A fun movie on Netflix is Fisherman's Friend. It is very loosely based on a real group from Cornwall that got famous singing traditional sea shanties. There is plenty of singing in the movie. (Just dawned on me that "shanty" must be related to French "chanter" - to sing)

Robin P wrote: "A fun movie on Netflix is Fisherman's Friend. It is very loosely based on a real group from Cornwall that got famous singing traditional sea shanties. There is plenty of singing in the movie. (Just..."

I literally JUST read WaPo's article on the sea shanty trend, and just a few seconds ago saw a recommendation for Fisherman's Friend in the comments. I guess I'll have to watch it when I finally take the free trial.

My husband has been listening to that Sea Shanty song. He said today that someone added a video of a cat bobbing its head along in time.

The dialect seems like that of Martha (the maid) and Dickon (the animal-loving boy) in The Secret Garden. That might help me.

"Tha munnot waste no time!"