The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Discussion starts on January 9. I’ve decided to start on Saturdays as that might be more convenient.

Attraction and Repulsion
The Specksioneer
A Refractory Pupil
Visions of the Future
New Year’s Fete
Perplexities
Partnership

Sylvia is more and more infatuated with Kinraid. Philip more and more with Sylvia. Philip endeavors to capture her heart by becoming her teacher. Molly gets married. Bell asks Philip to watch over Sylvia, and later becomes very ill. Phillip becomes a partner of the shop.

Any and all discussion of the book and author is welcomed.

1. Sylvia at age 17 starts to be taught some general subjects. What do these chapters say about the education of females? About their place in society?

2. How are Sylvia and Molly different?

3. Which suitor would be the better choice for Sylvia? Why?

Is Sylvia's lack of education due to her being female or to her family situation? I mean, Philip and Bell are somewhat educated, but is Sylvia's father, Molly's father, or Charley Kinraid? I was a bit surprised she wasn't able to read well, but I don't know much about the education system at that time, and how much schooling kids got, if any. But yes, it's pretty clear that women are expected to marry and know how to do things around the home, although they do take farm produce to market and Hester works at the shop.

Molly's marriage has made her a bit full of herself. Her manners are also a bit coarse; I suppose Sylvia's manners are better due to her mother's influence.

I'm not sure which suitor would be better. I don't think either of them are ideal, but I suppose the book will expect her to choose one of them, even though she's young enough to wait a bit. We still don't know if what Coulson said about Kinraid was accurate (especially since Coulson was not at the shop when Kinraid visited - that might have been interesting!). Being married or betrothed to a sailor would be stressful, since it's so dangerous, but that's obviously normal for Monkshaven families.
I like Philip more now than I did in the first section, but I'd rather see him marry Hester. I still think he's too "boring" for Sylvia.

At their best, the dialect passages strike one as most wonderfully poetic. This seems especially vivid.

'As for sausages, I ha' niver had a chance this year, else I stand again any one for t' making of 'em. Yorkshire hams 's a vast thought on, and I'll niver let another county woman say as she can make better sausages nor me. But, as I'm saying, I'd niver a chance; for our pig, as I were sa fond on, and fed mysel', and as would ha' been fourteen stone by now if he were an ounce, and as knew me as well as any Christian, and a pig, as I may say, that I just idolized, went and took a fit a week after Michaelmas Day, and died, as if it had been to spite me; and t' next is na' ready for killing, nor wunnot be this six week. So I'm much beholden to your missus, and so's Charley, I'm sure; though he's ta'en a turn to betterin' sin' he came out here to be nursed.'

In standard contemporary language, it might read something like this:

‘In the case of sausages, I’ve haven’t an opportunity to make any this year, though nobody makes better ones than I. Yorkshire ham is highly regarded, and I’d never admit any other woman in the county makes sausages better than mine. But as I said, I had no opportunity, because our pig, the one I liked best, and fed by hand, which would have weighed two hundred pounds at least now, and recognized me as well as anybody in the vicinity, a pig I really was proud of, suddenly got sick and died at the end of September, as if it wanted to annoy me, and my next one isn’t ready to go to market and won’t be for another six weeks. so I’m very grateful to your wife, and Charley is as well I’m sure, though he seems to be improving since he came here to convalesce.’

I suspect that growing up amongst folks who talked like that helped Ted Hughes become such a good poet.

Yes, perhaps neither Kinraid or Philip are ideal for Sylvia.

Kinraid goes on dancing for four hours and can be entertained with the next prettiest girl that evening. He is probably more a lonesome hero, more independent and well off being alone.

Philip seems possesive although he does everything he can to suppres it. The two of them just do not have good chemistry. Philip doesn’t sense that.

What do you think, Deborah, which one is the better choice?

I looked up blubber. Imagine whale blubber being so attractive...

From Wikipedia:

Uses[edit]

Uqhuq,[9] or uqsuq,[10] ("blubber" in the Inuktitut language) is an important part of the traditional diets of the Inuit and of other northern peoples, because of its high energy value and availability. Whale blubber, which tastes like arrowroot biscuits, has similar properties.[11]

Whaling largely targeted the collection of blubber: whalers rendered it into oil in try pots, or later, in vats on factory ships. The oil could serve in the manufacture of soap, leather, and cosmetics.[12] Whale oil was used in candles as wax, and in oil lamps as fuel. A single blue whale can yield a blubber harvest of up to 50 tons.[13]


Health[edit]

Blubber from whales and seals contains omega-3 fatty acids and vitamin D.[14] Without the vitamin D, for example, the Inuit and other natives of the Arctic would likely suffer from rickets. There is evidence blubber and other fats in the arctic diet also provide the calories needed to replace the lack of carbohydrates which are found in the diets of cultures in the rest of the world.[15]

Charlotte wrote: "Yes, perhaps neither Kinraid or Philip are ideal for Sylvia.

Kinraid goes on dancing for four hours and can be entertained with the next prettiest girl that evening. He is probably more a lonesom..."

I haven’t decided yet which would be better. I think Sylvia needs to mature a bit before I can decide.

Charlotte wrote: "I looked up blubber. Imagine whale blubber being so attractive...

From Wikipedia:

Uses[edit]

Uqhuq,[9] or uqsuq,[10] ("blubber" in the Inuktitut language) is an important part of the traditional..."

Blubber was eaten and rendered for oil. I grew up in Connecticut which has the historical Mystic Seaport which was a whaling town. You can tour a whaling boat (not sure if replica or actual) and see the equipment. I have to say, at least when I was a kid, it still had a nasty odor from the rendering of blubber.

Yes, Deborah, Sylvia is certainly immature. We don’t know much about her thoughts, only an angry comment here and a blush there.

Deborah wrote: You can tour a whaling boat (not sure if replica or actual) and see the equipment.
The Charles W. Morgan is indeed the real thing, built in 1841. After being aboard her, I never thought of Moby Dick the same way again. The ship seemed an incredibly confined space for a three year voyage. Of course the arctic whale fishery differed from the South Seas whale fishery depicted in Melville.

Bill wrote: "Deborah wrote: You can tour a whaling boat (not sure if replica or actual) and see the equipment.
The Charles W. Morgan is indeed the real thing, built in 1841. After being aboard her, I never thou..."

Thank you for clarifying this. It was forever ago that I went there. And yes very close quarters. Much smaller than one would think

It would be interesting to compare the education (or lack of it) of Sylvia and that of Philip and Charley. As the child of a north country hill farmer it wouldn’t matter whether Sylvia was a boy or a girl because education would be bottom of the list of priorities for their upbringing. Their immediate future would be to learn to help on the farm, and for that, even basic education was deemed unnecessary. Well into the twentieth century, when education was compulsory, the children of farmers in the north of England spent up to half of the year working on the farm and not at school. There is no doubt that Sylvia has intelligence but her lack of education severely restricts her ability to act confidently away from the farm.

Philip might have been born a boy but his poverty and orphan status meant that he couldn’t access any education. One of his greatest achievements has been to teach himself a variety of educational disciplines, to such an extent that he has a sound rudimentary knowledge as if he had been at school for a number of years. Not only does this give him the confidence to give lessons to Sylvia but also puts him in a position to become a partner in the business.

We haven’t been told if Charley can read and write etc, but as someone as advanced as he has become on a whaling ship I expect he can. Charley’s biggest assets are his experience of life and his ability to talk, even if much of what he says is either exaggerated or possibly just untrue.

It seems like most of the eligible young men of Monkshaven would like to marry Sylvia or at least look at her. She seems to rouse interest wherever she goes and her father is not slow to take advantage of that, sometimes to his detriment. However, her popularity does not seem universal,

’In fact, her peculiarity seemed to be this—that every one who knew her talked about her either in praise or blame; in church, or in market, she unconsciously attracted attention; they could not forget her presence, as they could that of other girls perhaps more personally attractive.’

Both Philip and Charley have now declared their intentions to marry Sylvia. For both of them she is the one, no other woman will suffice. Philip thinks he is hopelessly in love, in fact it is bordering on infatuation.

’Give me Sylvia, or else, I die?' No other vision had ever crossed his masculine fancy for a moment; his was a rare and constant love that deserved a better fate than it met with.’

But as the author has told us, all his hopes that Sylvia will love him seem ‘futile.’

’'Well, and here ye are at home again! and Philip has been, Sylvie, to give thee thy ciphering lesson; and he stayed awhile, thinking thou'd be coming back.' 'I'm very sorry,' said Sylvia, more out of deference to her mother's tone of annoyance, than because she herself cared either for her lesson or her cousin's disappointment.’

Charley’s experience with women, reinforced by his clever ambush of Sylvia in the parlour at the New Year party, leads him to believe that Sylvia is his wife for the taking and he has decided with a ‘prompt decision’ that is what he wants. Sylvia is certainly in awe of Charley and at this moment is probably the man of her dreams. However, she knows very little about Charley, who seems much more interested in her beauty than how much education she might have received.

I don’t think Sylvia is ready to marry either of them at the moment. She doesn’t have enough respect for Philip (and perhaps may never have) to value his good qualities. As for Charley, she doesn’t know enough about him and that pedestal she has put him on needs to be removed.

The whaling stories reminded me of Moby Dick.

I think Sylvia's hesitance to declare herself is natural. She really doesn't care for Philip, and certainly not in a romantic way. But she can't really get rid of him, especially with her mother favoring him. And she has grown up trained to be nice to people. It makes sense to me that she would be fascinated by someone with exciting, glamorous stories of adventure.

Robin P wrote: "The whaling stories reminded me of Moby Dick.


Me as well. Charley's account of his antarctic whaling voyage aboard 'an American' captained by a madman made me think that Captain Ahab may have been pretty much normal for the time. There are still remains of a whaling station on South Georgia Island.

Robin P wrote: "The whaling stories reminded me of Moby Dick.

I think Sylvia's hesitance to declare herself is natural. She really doesn't care for Philip, and certainly not in a romantic way. But she can't real..."

It seems to help that Charley is so new. Sylvia hasn't grown up alongside him, which already gives him an advantage over just about every other young man in town. I wonder if her mother favoring Phillip doesn't also have something to do with Sylvia preferring someone else? It kind of reminds me of the cloaks - she favors the one her mother most disapproves of, although she feels some guilt over that defiance once she gets the material.

Women had so little control over their lives. I think the cloak was one way Sylvia could show her independence even though she may not be aware of it.

Really good point, Alissa, about Charley being new in town. It reminds me of The Return of the Native where a newcomer has an exotic and romantic allure for a girl who has seen little of the world.

While the dialect is pleasingly poetic to many here, it still bogs down my reading. Additionally, Gaskell's depictions have not endeared the characters to me so far. To address Deborah's discussion topics:

1. Sylvia at age 17 starts to be taught some general subjects. What do these chapters say about the education of females? About their place in society?
I agree with Lori that this lack of education has much to do with Sylvia and her family. As Sylvia seems disinterested and inept at learning. part of her lack of education may be her own fault, so making a broader societal assessment is difficult.

2. How are Sylvia and Molly different?
Sylvia is way more demure than Molly, whose boorishness is properly distasteful to Sylvia at present. Friendships drift apart when situations change.

3. Which suitor would be the better choice for Sylvia? Why?
I agree with the consensus, which is that neither suitor is a good choice, based on all their personalities. However, since the question is which is the "better" choice, not if either is a good choice, I would have to choose Philip by a slim margin because, while he is unappealing to Sylvia, she would at least be safe and secure unlike life with Charlie, who looks like he'd still like to shop around even after he'd made a purchase. The appropriateness of the suitor will depend on how Gaskell further develops the characters.
Using Trollope analogies, while Philip may possibly become "Sylvia's Angel," this love triangle more reminds me of the Lily Dale/Crosbie/Johnny Eames situation, where neither suitor is the right one for the young maiden. I hope for some new entry to the mix.

Well, even though Philip may be the better choice, it would be a terrible idea. Sylvia would become Mme Bovary, tempted by passing sailors and resenting her life. She would like the perks of a carriage and merchandise that Philip could offer her, but Molly would still be able to one-up her on that score. It seems that Molly isn't a romantic. She was fine with marrying an older man who could provide for her. But Sylvia thinks she wants romance and adventure. In truth, we have no idea what kind of man Charley is. Sylvia seems like the typical teenage girl who falls for the gangster or "bad boy" and ends up being badly treated. If nothing else, Charley would be gone most of the time. And we know he is hotheaded and maybe a liar in his fabulous tales.

Robin P wrote: "Well, even though Philip may be the better choice, it would be a terrible idea. Sylvia would become Mme Bovary, tempted by passing sailors and resenting her life. She would like the perks of a carr..."

The fact is that Sylvia is just not ready for marriage, both in terms of her emotional maturity and the practicalities that marriage would require. She hasn’t acquired any of the practical skills to manage a household. Like a child and unlike her mother she probably believed all the stories Charley told her. If he asked her to marry him now she would probably say yes. Her father might agree to it but I doubt her mother would. In another five years she would be better prepared to make a choice and, echoing Brian’s thoughts, she might have met other men who suit her better.
I have just finished reading The Old Wives' Tale by Arnold Bennett an account of the lives of two sisters. (Spoiler alert if you have not read the book) (view spoiler)[ The younger one becomes infatuated with a newcomer in her humdrum life, a travelling salesman, and elopes with him. The result is that she ruins her life despite the various adventures that befall her. Her sister’s life is much less adventurous but vastly more fulfilling. After years apart they meet again and it is the younger sister, full of regrets, who feels a need to cling to the reliability and emotional comfort that her older sister brings. (hide spoiler)] Sylivia could end up like either of those sisters, who had very different life experiences, depending upon the choices she makes.

If the press gang doesn’t get Charley, a whale probably will. A Victorian reader might expect a resolution of the love triangle like that in Vanity Fair.

Why did Philip persist in making Syvia copy 'Abednego' repeatedly? Probably not out of a fixation on the book of Daniel, but to practise the flourishes of copperplate handwriting. Perhaps he hoped his future wife might become a village schoolmistress.

Also, it's impressive how quickly the characters can do sums in l/s/d in their heads. I still recall being a shipping clerk in London in the early '60s. Per cents were tricky.

Bill wrote: "Also, it's impressive how quickly the characters can do sums in l/s/d in their heads. .."

That really caught my attention too - enough that I thought about checking it myself and, being American, decided not to tax my brain.

Bill wrote: "Why did Philip persist in making Syvia copy 'Abednego' repeatedly? Probably not out of a fixation on the book of Daniel, but to practise the flourishes of copperplate handwriting. Perhaps he hoped ..."

I assumed it was something in the book designed for children. That is probably the first word/name in alphabetical order but she never got beyond it. It does seem like Philip has no understanding of what would motivate Sylvia. She might be motivated to read if she found out she could read about voyages and whaling.

Bill wrote: "Why did Philip persist in making Syvia copy 'Abednego' repeatedly? Probably not out of a fixation on the book of Daniel, but to practise the flourishes of copperplate handwriting. Perhaps he hoped ..."

I have still got some old ha’pennies, threepenny bits and half crowns in an old box to remind me of my school pounds, shillings and pence lessons. They come in handy when reading older British novels.

I am fascinated to know how Philip managed to teach himself everything he knows, having been brought up in a poor, austere household with perhaps only the Bible and few other books to hand. It brings to mind another character in one of Elizabeth Gaskell’s other novels. In ‘Mary Barton’ the factory workers as well as Mary and her friends all rely on the knowledge and wisdom of Job Legh who although very poor was self taught and an expert naturalist. However, he would have had access to things Philip might not have had, like a Mechanics Institute or something similar.

For those interested in the relative values of amounts in 1796 compared to today, for example Philip’s savings of £50, there is a website called ‘Measuring Worth’ (I think I have mentioned it before) which uses the Retail Price Index to estimate amounts.

https://www.measuringworth.com/index.php

‘So yo' will have to pay us, John and Jeremiah Foster, brothers, six hundred and twelve pound ten out of the profits of the first year, leaving, at the present rate of profits, about five hundred and eighty-nine pound ten, for the share to be divided between yo'.'

In the 18th century a modest middle-class family could get by easily on £300 a year. This is a generous offer though we surely think Hester should get a share too.

Bill wrote: "‘So yo' will have to pay us, John and Jeremiah Foster, brothers, six hundred and twelve pound ten out of the profits of the first year, leaving, at the present rate of profits, about five hundred a..."

Using the ‘Measuring Worth’ calculations, the £589 10s. would translate to an income of £58,390 in 2019. Of course the relative values of goods and services change over time, but it is still a tidy sum.
Yes, Hester should get a share.

I wonder if the brothers assumed Hester would marry one of the two young men.

Brian wrote: "Bill wrote: "Also, it's impressive how quickly the characters can do sums in l/s/d in their heads. .."

That really caught my attention too - enough that I thought about checking it myself and, bei..."

We slowly come to appreciate Philip's abilities and what he has accomplished, and what possibilities lie ahead of him. While he is clearly hoping his prospects will be enough to win Sylvia, I can't help but think, as others have mentioned, that Hester would be the better wife for him and would appreciate the qualities he has, and could help him in his business. This is an unfortunate scenario where we have several people who will end up unhappy and not with the one they love at present.

Robin P wrote: "I wonder if the brothers assumed Hester would marry one of the two young men."

That was my understanding, and unfortunately she loves on of them and the other one loves her.

Robin P wrote: "Well, even though Philip may be the better choice, it would be a terrible idea. Sylvia would become Mme Bovary, tempted by passing sailors and resenting her life. She would like the perks of a carr..."

I also agree that at this point Charley seems the better prospect for Sylvia, both because she finds him attractive and because he has a good (though clearly dangerous) job. She lives in a sailing community so marrying a sailor would place her in good company, and I assume that a successful whaler would make a good income.

It does seem as if Sylvia's mother "married beneath herself" but she doesn't appear to have made any effort to raise Sylvia with the education she had (I think having Philip teach her to read is more of a ruse to bring them together than a belated wish that she be educated).

One note, though-Philip is considering changing tack in his approach and I agree that backing off might well work in his favour, particularly if Charlie is leaving for a while. He is presumably an attractive man if both Hester and the wee lass in the shop wish to marry him, so perhaps if Sylvia had a bit more time and less pressure she might come to appreciate him more.

Frances wrote: "Robin P wrote: "Well, even though Philip may be the better choice, it would be a terrible idea. Sylvia would become Mme Bovary, tempted by passing sailors and resenting her life. She would like the..."

How would Sylvia react to Charley being away on a whaler for six months of each year? Charley seems an independent man and it would be likely that he would take her back to his home in Newcastle rather than leave her in Monkshaven. She would know Molly but I am not sure that would do her any good.

She doesn’t seem to be the ‘homely’ type who would be happy to sit at home doing embroidery and the household chores. She could have a baby or two to look after so that would take up a lot of the time. It would be the summer months just when she would want to be out and about, but that would have to wait until Charley came home.

I have just watched an old movie, ‘Tiger Bay’ starring John Mills and Hayley Mills. Young Hayley witnesses a terrible crime after a merchant seamen returns home after a long stint at sea to find the woman he loves and supports has left their home and taken up with another man. She tells him that she is fed up of him being away all the time.

Sylvia might be more faithful but would the reality of Charley’s long absences give her the happiness she desires.

Spoiler from next setion(view spoiler)[Am I misremembering or did Charley say something about her staying with her parents or in their neighbourhood, at least initially? I seem to recall him being somewhat sensitive to this issue. (hide spoiler)]

Trev wrote: How would Sylvia react to Charley being away on a whaler for six months of each year? Sh..."

It isn’t impossible to have a marriage like that. In the case of Sylvia, she must have seen many people live in that way - even her parents, right? I think when you see many people do something, it becomes normal and doesn’t cause the kind of suffering that we would think. Nowadays there are still people working at sea etc. and also married couples living separately - and cope with it in their way.

Frances wrote: "Am I misremembering or did Charley say something about her staying with her parents or in their neighbourhood, at least initially? I seem to recall him being somewhat sensitive to this issue."

This is week 2 thread. What you are remembering is in week 3 reading 😀

Robin P wrote: "Bill wrote: "Why did Philip persist in making Syvia copy 'Abednego' repeatedly? Probably not out of a fixation on the book of Daniel, but to practise the flourishes of copperplate handwriting. Perhaps he hoped..."

I assumed it was something in the book designed for children. That is probably the first word/name in alphabetical order but she never got beyond it. It does seem like Philip has no understanding of what would motivate Sylvia. She might be motivated to read if she found out she could read about voyages and whaling

I know! It is one thing to have a sixth-grade education. It is another thing to be actually illiterate. From the tutoring sessions I was led to believe Sylvia could not read or write; didn't know the world is a globe. I kept wishing her parents had thought of this earlier (7) rather than wait til she is 17.

Frances wrote: "Robin P wrote: "I wonder if the brothers assumed Hester would marry one of the two young men."

That was my understanding, and unfortunately she loves on of them and the other one loves her."

William loves Hester, who loves Philip, who loves Sylvia, who loves Charley. If Charley were to fall for Hester they would all be in quite a pickle. Oh no wait, we need another female (in that time and place anyway; I am fine with harpooner Charley discovering his rough manly feelings for shopkeeper William) to complete the Unrequited Circle of Pain.

Bonnie wrote: "Frances wrote: "Robin P wrote: "I wonder if the brothers assumed Hester would marry one of the two young men."

That was my understanding, and unfortunately she loves on of them and the other one l..."

Hahaha! :-)

Frances wrote: "He is presumably a handsome man...

Here is Philip's description from earlier chapter:

He was a serious-looking young man, tall, but with a slight stoop in his shoulders, brought on by his occupation. He had thick hair standing off from his forehead in a peculiar but not unpleasing manner; a long face, with a slightly aquiline nose, dark eyes, and a long upper lip, which gave a disagreeable aspect to a face that might otherwise have been good-looking.

Yes it is good he has changed tactics. I very disliked how he treated Sylvia so condescendingly and... peremptorily. Starting the day she bought the cloth for the cloak.

If she liked him but didn't love him, if she felt any cousinly or friendly regard for him! But she doesn’t. She often actively dislikes him and Retracts from his touch.

So on to Charley, who (until that whale gets him, Haha) will be away over half the year. Is there any way they could get married and live on the farm? Build a little cottage on the property, so they woukd have some privacy in the winter? I don't think the Robsons own the farm though, they lease it. It would decrease her chances of becoming Madame Bovary! and she could help her parents with the farm. It would be rough living in a city with a bunch of babies, not being able to read or write, sitting around while the money runs out waiting for the ship to come back in.

A couple more thoughts.
1. Does anyone, like characters in the book, the author, or real people at that time, ever think about the poor whales? GEEZ. I can't wait to harpoon this magnificent creature through its fin. Or how if more and more and more people become whalers and kill even more of those intelligent fabulous beings, that there won't be any more whales?
2. I definitely don't like this writing as much as Jane Austen's writing. I got a little bored during the chapter of the New Year's Eve party, and was thinking, now if Jane Austen wrote these scenes it would be DRAMATIC. Holiday food, crufty dad, hiding in corners, dodging suitors, wild party games, refilling the punch bowl, wondering what's happened to your old friend, playful verbal jousting... However Gaskell writes just does not bring it to life in the same way, for me.

Bonnie wrote: "A couple more thoughts.
1. Does anyone, like characters in the book, the author, or real people at that time, ever think about the poor whales? GEEZ. I can't wait to harpoon this magnificent creat..."

They wouldn’t have thought much about killing the whale. They were a source of many things

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&r...

Gaskell spends a lot of time getting her readers to know the characters and the town.

Deborah wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "A couple more thoughts.
1. Does anyone, like characters in the book, the author, or real people at that time, ever think about the poor whales? GEEZ. I can't wait to harpoon this ma..."

Whales probably seemed inexhaustible. It was the energy source of the day. And they were seen as dangerous (rightly so!) No different to many people than any other sort of hunting. I am pretty sure that future generations will be disturbed at the amount of meat eating and random driving with gasoline that shows up in books of the 20th-21st century.