Support for Indie Authors discussion

I'm wondering what everyone else's thoughts are regarding chapter length. I've read a few books where the chapters are all exactly the same length and for some reason it makes the pace of the story drag (and slowly eats away at my soul) even if the story is good overall.

Something about the uniformity makes the pace seem unnatural, I guess. When the chapter length varies it can help alter the pace. Shorter chapters can make the pace seem faster or can complement faster-paced sections of the book better while longer chapters might be more suited if someone is trying to investigate something, for example, allowing for more depth and a slower progress towards understanding that.

And then it comes down to - how do you decide when to start and end chapters? I usually design chapters around an event, topic or theme. For example, a big/key event in a character's life might warrant its own chapter. Another chapter might be focused on various characters struggling with similar things (say, they're all struggling with friendships or something). This way I break the chapters up more by topics and ideas and don't really look at work count at all. And when I re-read my book recently I noticed that the chapter lengths varied quite a bit.

So what are your thoughts on chapter length?
How do you decide when to start and end a chapter?
Do you monitor word count when writing chapters?
If you do keep your word counts consistent across chapters is there a reason for it or a benefit that you get?
If you do keep word count consistent for all your chapters do you vary scene lengths to make up for it or to affect the pace?

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts, responses, and discussion! :)

My debut novel had very long chapters. "You write how you read" goes the saying, and my primary reading consists of old-fashioned fiction or non-fiction, which generally contain long chapters. I gradually skinnied them up as the series wound on, and I started a new series that's less dramatic and more action-oriented, so I'm keeping the chapters short and sweet.

So I guess it would depend on the genre as far as length. I kinda do what you do, make each chapter almost like its own micro-story. I do try to keep the word counts consistent because, to me, it helps me keep pace as a reader. If I know each chapter is X pages, then I know when I'm close to a stopping point, for instance. If the chapters vary wildly, it might be jarring to go from a 4 page chapter to one that runs 10-15 pages.

As a reader, I don't really care that much, but some level of consistency is good when I read on the move. If a chapter is, let's say, about 15 minutes long, and I have to get off the train in 10, I'll put the book aside for that moment. I may use a similar method when reading before sleeping, to some degree.

As a writer, this probably gets a bit more complex, but with a relatively simple outcome. I'll answer that point by point.

So what are your thoughts on chapter length?
Having consistent chapter length (within some unforced range) helps me find scenes when editing. This is further aided by chapter names. My chapters are somewhere around 3k, the actual range is probably between 2k and 5k. The only case where I could've made a chapter much longer is a major battle (3 chapters for the final battle in book one, 3 chapters for the final battle in the current draft of book two, 3 chapters for the major half-way battle in the current draft of book three, and 5 chapters in final battle in the current draft of book three)

How do you decide when to start and end a chapter?
Pretty much a major scene break.

Do you monitor word count when writing chapters?
Indirectly, by keeping an eye on page count.

If you do keep your word counts consistent across chapters is there a reason for it or a benefit that you get?
Answered above - it helps me to find specific scenes when editing.

If you do keep word count consistent for all your chapters do you vary scene lengths to make up for it or to affect the pace?
Scenes are "as long as the story wants them to be". I don't manipulate the length of those. There are chapter-long scenes, and scenes that are just a few paragraphs.

Short chapters averaging 5-7 pages with an overall range of 3-10 and an occasional longer one. I think and write in terms of scenes and that determines start and finish. As for deciding what to read, if I see a book with really long chapters I'll probably not read it: the thought is that the writer goes on interminably and doesn't know how to pace, break things up.

In general, a chapter end is a lot like a commercial break. It can’t be just anywhere, and it can’t interrupt, mid-action without the reader screaming, “What? Give me a break!”

So, a scene change is a good spot, as is a change of direction in the story, a great realization by the protagonist, or, a change in scene’s viewpoint character. That, “Oh my god…what do we do now?” moment is perfect.

The thing to remember is to never place a break at a point where the reader will put the book aside and say, “Okay, let’s break here for…” Do that and they have no pressing reason to come back. You want them saying, “Well…maybe I’ll read just one more chapter today,” and repeating that right into the middle of the night.

As for length: In general, it takes a reader about 250 words to “get into,” a new situation/setting/etc. So that’s the low end. And too many short chapters give a “choppy” feel. At the high end, if you have rising action for much more than about 3500 words you’re in danger of slipping over into melodrama. And if you have that much prose without rising action, or, a pivot-point, you’re in danger of boring the reader.

Hope this helps

My view is a chapter should make one point. How long it takes to do it defines the chapter length. I disagree with the idea you do not want to end a chapter with a natural break. If it is in the middle of a scene it is merely an irritant. I prefer to have chapters end where the reader can say, yes, that was done. Now what?

My chapters are scene-based; one could say stories within a story. So, they come in all lengths. But I prefer chapters between 1-2K words. I devised these perimeters after someone at ACX narrated my audiobook, and I had to proof-listen and approve it.

ACX's rule is that a narrator has to narrate and upload every chapter separately. It became so tedious for me to edit glitches in the long chapters that I said never again.

Ian wrote: "My view is a chapter should make one point..."

Agreed.

Q: How long should a chapter be? How long should a string be?
A: Long enough to get the job done and no more.

If you keep in mind what the chapter is supposed to do, then you'll know when it's time to start another one. But what a chapter is supposed to do can be many things. It can be one place or time during which plot actions take place by multiple characters, or it might just be an introduction to one or more characters, or it might be an entire action scene.

From the reader's point of view, they really shouldn't be conscious of what a chapter's point is, they should just be pulled along. And as long as the chapter does what it needs to do and nothing more, then the pacing should be fine, whether it's a long or short chapter.

Oooh, lots of great comments and points here, many that I had not considered or thought about too much before! :)

Peter, you make an excellent point about genre having an effect. Something like a thriller will have different chapter lengths than a Dickens novel or an epic fantasy or something. This makes me wonder if the number of POVs used in the story also has a significant effect on chapter lengths.

Tomas, I love your point about reading on the go/on the bus and knowing that the reader can fit a chapter into a certain commute. I think this also ties in really well with Wanjiru's point about audiobooks, which I had never considered, and I guess having consistent length, shorter chapters would help not just the author doing editing of those audiobooks, but also readers who want to listen to a chapter during their drive to work or something. :)

Tomas wrote: "Having consistent chapter length (within some unforced range) helps me find scenes when editing. "

I am the worst at finding a specific scene or section when editing, partly due to my terrible memory, but I had never considered that having consistent chapter lengths might help with that! Great point!

M.L. wrote: "Short chapters averaging 5-7 pages with an overall range of 3-10 and an occasional longer one. I think and write in terms of scenes and that determines start and finish. As for deciding what to read, if I see a book with really long chapters I'll probably not read it: the thought is that the writer goes on interminably and doesn't know how to pace, break things up."

I never actually considered that someone might decide not to read the book based on chapter length as a main factor, but I think looking back a lot of the books I struggled to get through and eventually DNFd have been ones with extremely long chapters that didn't seem to warrant that length.

Jay, lots of great advice and comments in your post. I particularly loved the point about the reader taking 250 words to "get into it" - my chapters tend to be above 1000 words so I never thought about what the lower limit might be too much, but this is definitely important to keep in mind - and I think even for individual scenes it can be important to make sure they're not too short! :)

I do agree with Ian that a natural break can definitely be a good place to end a chapter, because even if there's no compelling action there will often be questions about characters and what they might be thinking or doing that will still make me want to go back. So it can be a natural break and allow the reader to stop, but you then have to make sure you've left enough interesting things or enough questions or goals towards the progress of the plot that they do eventually come back.

Micah wrote: "From the reader's point of view, they really shouldn't be conscious of what a chapter's point is, they should just be pulled along. And as long as the chapter does what it needs to do and nothing more, then the pacing should be fine, whether it's a long or short chapter."

Totally agree, and the thing that spurred me to write this thread is reading a couple of books in a row where I started to question why the chapters are so long, why they're broken up the way they are, etc. This kind of indicates that the "pulling along" the author was trying to do wasn't really working and it didn't feel natural.

I'm like a lot of the others, I do scenes. Most of my chapters are from 1200 to 3200 words. I do try to keep then below 2400 words as that makes a nice ten fifteen minute read for most people.

You need to look for natural breaks where you can add a 'hook' to keep readers turning the page. (Forget that going to bed and getting up scenes. Those fit into the "it was a dark and stormy night opening.) Pacing should pull the readers through the chapter. Look at every paragraph. Do they more the story forward, or deepen your characterization? If it doesn't, you might want to consider deleting it.

From what I've been learning, every chapter, paragraph, sentence and word needs to have a purpose. If it doesn't change it so it does or delete it. Exposition/backstory should never be more than three sentences unless you are a doing a flash back.

One novel I read had every chapter almost the exact same length. The fact that I noticed the consistent lengths is odd - I don't generally even think about it. I'm not sure why, but it kind of annoyed me. Because of that experience, I really try to make sure the chapters are of varying lengths.

Eileen wrote: "One novel I read had every chapter almost the exact same length. The fact that I noticed the consistent lengths is odd - I don't generally even think about it. I'm not sure why, but it kind of anno..."

Haha, yeah, this is exactly how I felt when making this post. I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

Ian wrote: "My view is a chapter should make one point. How long it takes to do it defines the chapter length. I disagree with the idea you do not want to end a chapter with a natural break. If it is in the mi..."

Hi Ian, the problem with each chapter ending where the reader can say that was done is where is the impetus to keep reading? This differs by genre, of course, but with thrillers you want the chapter to end where the reader must turn the page to keep reading :)

Hi Eldon,

I said make one point, but I did not say, THE point. Taking a slightly oversimplified example in a hypothetical thriller, MC is investigating some clue in a remote spot and gets shot at. He acquires the clue and sneaks down some gully, and the shooter loses sight of him. End of chapter. Why don't you want to keep reading? [Saying that set-up is silly is not an acceptable answer :-) It is obviously for example purposes only.]

I write usually surrounding one scene—one moment,one time. However, my chapters have been slightly controlled by my publishers. Apparently different genres of books demand different length chapters. I try to keep it short and sweet. However, the last book I wrote was ya, and I was told chapter length was meant to be generally 10-15 pages long, which took some shuffling. Anyone else run into this sort of thing?

Something I have been interested in for years is film and film editing. I am starting to realize ideas of good editing in film can occasionally also apply to writing and also editing words.

I'm a very visual person when I write, as I'm sure many people here are. For example, in a fight scene choreography is so important. Readers will pick up on characters not being in the right place or doing something that would be physically impossible where they are.
In a conversation between two people, it sometimes helps to think how the scene would be shot on film and can aid you in the back and forth of the conversation, and also when the scene should end.
These moments can lend themselves to 'cuts' made in the mind's eye, for both reader and writer. Knowing how visual editors do it well can help the flow of your writing.

On Youtube, check out 'This Guy Edits' or 'Cinefix'. 'Thomas Flight' also does some great breakdowns of film.

I tend to favor the advice Dwight Swain gave, in Techniques of the Selling Writer:

Do these stories in the style Burroughs used to use; you know, take one set of characters and carry them along for a chapter, putting them at the end of the chapter in such a position that nothing can save them; then take another set of characters, rescue them from their dilemma, carry them to a hell of a problem at the end of the chapter, then switch back to the first set of characters, rescue them from their deadly peril, carry them along to the end of the chapter where, once again, they are seemingly doomed; then rescue the second set of characters . . . and so on. Don’t give the reader a chance to breathe; keep him on the edge of his goddam chair all the way through. To hell with clues and smart dialogue and characterization; don’t worry about corn. GIVE ME PACE AND BANG BANG! Make me breathless, bud!

Jay wrote: "I tend to favor the advice Dwight Swain gave, in Techniques of the Selling Writer:

Do these stories in the style Burroughs used to use..."

William or Edgar?

David wrote: "Something I have been interested in for years is film and film editing. I am starting to realize ideas of good editing in film can occasionally also apply to writing and also editing words.

I'm a..."

You have a step up in editing if you have been interested and doing any type of film editing. In fact, one of my classes was going over how film editing worked for books.

In using it, you visualize the scene, the action, the people, the surroundings. At the end of the scene, how do you get to the next scene? We as authors need to study the way to end a scene and get to the next one. Movies are a great way to visualize it and the masters on writing can show you in words.

Part of writing is reading. When reading make sure you are paying attention to how the writer makes you want to keep reading. As to the pace and bang bang theory, your reader does need time to breathe unless you are writing an action story and that is all there is to it. I'm not sure about other people, but an action story now and then is good, but I like books that have some meat to them other than action. Being female, I like to feel something other than breathless from all the action. Yes, to we do need to keep the story moving and not stalled in the packing or makeing the bed or walking the dog but I want to know that that scary house looked like (not too detailed though) with impressions along with sight. I need a general idea of what your MC looks like but make it general unless that mole on her left butt on his scar on his hip is important.

So, with that said, you keep the story moving with enough description to give us setting, enough emotions to make us feel and characters who you are able to like or hate but not ignore.

William or Edgar?

The one that didn't shoot his wife.

The one who shot his wife looks like he swallowed a bucket of lemons and never got rid of them.

The other one wrote adventuresome novels. Jane Goodall said she loved them!

Yes he was no saint, but I prefer William. Jane Goodall is a lovely person.

Length and breaks? For me it depends on the pace of the story, and I suffer the misfortune of no-two-stories-alike. But I second the suggestions of studying movies: coming from a playwriting career, I’m intensely focused on where a scene begins, ends, and what leads us forward. In the novels, my chapters tend to be about 2600 words, though the last one had some 3200, some 250—a very disjointed rhythm. I don’t doubt that the cliffhanger-to-cliffhanger formula works well, but most of my people hang on very internalized cliffs.

Conrad, I like those books with the 3000 word chapter then a 250 word chapter. I breaks things up and I use that in one book where you are getting the internalizations of the killer. I find books with the same length chapter tend to get boring really quick.