The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Discussion starts on January 16

A Difficult Question
The Engagement
Rejected Warnings
Eddy in Love’s Court
An Important Mission
Loved and Lost
A Rejected Suitor

Bell tells Sylvia basically a parable warning her about Kinraid. We learn that Kinraid has previously courted other women, only to discard them and is blamed by some for the suicide of one woman. Kinraid proposes to Sylvia who accepts, and her father agrees. He is ambushed by the press gang even though he is legally protected from them. Philip witnesses this. Kinraid sends a message to Sylvia via Philip only to have Philip to decide not to tell her. This, along with the discovery of his hat, leads everyone to believe he is dead.

1. What does Sylvia gain from hearing the parable?

2. How does the impact of isolation affect the sailors? Their families and loved ones?

3. What motifs are you seeing in this book?

As always, any discussion on the book or author is welcome

I was lagging in the book and was a couple chapters behind but now I am engaged. The chapter with the attack was so dramatic and Philip’s moral dilemma is very interesting. He prides himself on his Christian virtues (hmm, that seems like an oxymoron) but now he chooses to withhold the truth. I was a little surprised that everyone assumed Charley drowned (although most sailors couldn’t swim). Why would he have been in the water anyway? This isn’t the best outcome for Philip, as Charley is preserved in Sylvia’s memory as the perfect love. It would have been better for Philip if Charley disappeared and people could tell Sylvia he forgot her.

I thought the rough talk of the press gang was a good touch, contrasting with the romantic view of Sylvia that both Philip and Charley have. It’s as if the world of the village and farms is isolated from the cruelty of the outside world, but sometimes the outside intrudes.

I thought since the terrain was rough and slippery that the towns people thought he’d accidentally fallen in and drown.

I had a hard time picturing the terrain and was also wondering why people would assume Charley drowned so easily.

Philip feels himself justified, especially by Alice Rose's story, in keeping Charley's whereabouts a secret, but this is going to eat away at him. Even if Sylvia were to marry Philip in the future (which I doubt), part of their relationship would be built on a lie, and that's not going to sit well with him, whatever he tells himself now.

I might be completely wrong here, but given Sylvia's age and inexperience, and her rocky relationship with Philip, do you think that Philip should have communicated what he'd heard about Kinraid (both before and after the press gang got him) to Sylvia's father rather than to Sylvia herself? Daniel would have known what was "sailor talk" and what might be true, might have been able to get to the truth since people who know Kinraid would have more in common with Daniel than with Philip, and, if there is indeed a problem, would be better at convincing Sylvia that Kinraid's not the man for her.

Lori, I agree that that would have been a better approach-at this point everything is hearsay and I wonder if there's been a mix-up of names or a misunderstanding about Kinraid's treatment of previous women, but at least Sylvia's father could have done some asking around.

I also think that Philip is putting himself at risk of being found out about knowing the truth-not only might Kinraid return, but there are the 4 men who press-ganged Kinraid who heard what he said to Philip. If the town ever learns that Philip withheld this information, he will not be forgiven-both because of Sylvia and also for Kinraid's family and friends left thinking he was dead. Also, if anyone had known what had happened it sounds like his Captain or his family could have complained to the Navy and potentially won him back, as he had protection from press-ganging.

I don't think the press gang is likely to come into town and talk about Philip, he was a nonentity to them. But for sure Kinraid will speak. I also wonder if Kinraid's family will just accept the story of drowning.

Yes, this is not going to end well for Philip. Something like that might even cause Hester to lose respect for him (after all, Hester wouldn't even exist if Alice Rose had not married the man Philip is unfavorably comparing to Kinraid).

On a side note that might not end up mattering anymore, we now know that Kinraid would have left Sylvia with her parents when he went to sea, so that would have made her happy (though still worried, I suppose) if they'd married. I wonder if that was normal for sailors with young wives.

Afterings OED

3. Scottish and English regional. The last milk that may be drawn from a cow.

1688 R. Holme Acad. Armory ii. ix. 173/1 Afterings, the Stroakings, or last that is Milkt from a Cow.
1777 Farmer's Mag. Jan. 376 The vessel appointed to receive the collection of afterings and skimmed cream for the next churning.
1796 Glasse's Art of Cookery (new ed.) xxii. 354 Put one large spoonful of steep to five quarts of afterings.
1811 W. Aiton Gen. View Agric. Ayr 443 Older ones [sc. calves] are fed on that which is last drawn, termed afterings.
1863 E. C. Gaskell Sylvia's Lovers II. i. 7 It were only yesterday as she aimed her leg right at t' pail wi' t' afterings in.
1882 Notes & Queries 15 July 54/2 The first milk drawn from the cow is the poorest..the latest drawn milk, called the ‘afterings’, is the richest.
1908 H. Ingle Elem. Agric. Chem. x. 192 The ‘fore-milk’, too, contains very small globules of fat, while the ‘strippings’ or ‘afterings’ contain large globules.
1979 P.-G. Boucé in T. Smollett Roderick Random 463 Known as ‘afterings’ locally, the last milk drawn from a cow, thought to be the richest.

Fremd (OED)

a. Strange, unknown, unfamiliar. Also elliptical or absol. quasi-n. the fremd: strangers. Of an incident: Remarkable, surprising.

c950 Lindisf. Gosp. John x. 5 Forðon ne cuðon stefn ðara fremðe.
a1250 (▸?a1200) Ancrene Riwle (Nero) (1952) 46 His deore deciples..bileueden him alle one ase ureomede.
a1300 Cursor Mundi 28292 Priuetis o fremyd and frende I haue discouerd.
c1385 G. Chaucer Legend Good Women Dido. 1046 That nevere yit was so fremde a cas.
14.. in Pol. Rel. & L. Poems (1866) 249 Euery man, boþe fremyd & kouth, Xul comyn with-outyn ly.
1535 in J. Raine Depositions Courts Durham (1845) 52 Let her take 2 fremde menne, or frendes, and I other 2.
1568 in J. Small Poems W. Dunbar (1893) II. 307 The fremmit thairof thair baggis can fill.
a1586 Sir P. Sidney Arcadia (1593) i. sig. H4 Cowards..With sight of feare from frends to fremb'd do flie.
1863 E. C. Gaskell Sylvia's Lovers (1874) 184 ‘There's a fremd man i' t' house, I heerd his voice!’

Thanks Bill.

Very interesting-I actually knew this from breastfeeding info we give mums to make sure they drain the breast before switching as that's where the higher fat/calorie milk is (for humans it's foremilk and hind milk)

Robin P wrote: "I was lagging in the book and was a couple chapters behind but now I am engaged. The chapter with the attack was so dramatic and Philip’s moral dilemma is very interesting."

I agree. The book has finally developed an interesting plot and, the situation where readers have premonitions of possible adverse future events based on current happenings - always a good thing
While Philip thinks he has a moral dilemma, there really is no dilemma - no amount of alleged 'protecting' of Sylvia from knowledge of Charlie's fate would ever counterbalance Charlie's family, friends and Employer from knowing the truth. If the Employer knew the truth, there may be slim chance they could assert certain rights to get their employee back from the illegal pressing. Philip has made a wrong decision to keep quite and may have to pay the price of that choice. Of course, the bad choice makes for a more interesting plot that making a good choice.
The book is reminding me more now of a Thomas Hardy novel, which is a good thing.

Bill wrote: "Fremd (OED)

a. Strange, unknown, unfamiliar. Also elliptical or absol. quasi-n. the fremd: strangers. Of an incident: Remarkable, surprising.

c950 Lindisf. Gosp. John x. 5 Forðon ne cuðon stefn ..."

I think this is basically a German word with the same meaning, one of our German-speaking members could confirm this.

Bill wrote: "Fremd (OED)

a. Strange, unknown, unfamiliar. Also elliptical or absol. quasi-n. the fremd: strangers.

..."

In Danish: Fremmed

Robin P wrote: "Bill wrote: "Fremd (OED)

a. Strange, unknown, unfamiliar. Also elliptical or absol. quasi-n. the fremd: strangers. Of an incident: Remarkable, surprising.

c950 Lindisf. Gosp. John x. 5 Forðon ne..."

Yes, it is germanic.

Yes, now I am certainly engaged in the story, too! When we were discussing Charley and Philip in Week 2, we had no idea what was going to happen.

I thought chapter XVI, The Engagement was the most dramatic. Now I understand why Gaskell made Sylvia such an inexperienced, uneducated, blushing, innocent little lamb.

Kinraid is repeatedly asking her to answer:
“Do you think I can ever forget you again?”

He is asking HER about HIS love for her, not declaring it himself and not asking about how SHE feels. Did she even answer his proposal?

I feel he is powerfully manipulating her. She starts crying and he starts lulling her in his arms. In the end she runs up to her room and will not come out. What did you think about this?

Philip is also ready to manipulate her, only in a slow, careful, lurking way.

Now he is so lucky that he doesn’t even have to make up a story. He can remain passive.

Glad you brought up the stories about Kinraid. I was going to ask you if you believe them to be true.

Charlotte wrote: "Glad you brought up the stories about Kinraid. I was going to ask you if you believe them to be true."

I believe that Kinraid does have some history of womanizing (including Coulson's sister), but that the "sailor talk" Philip heard at the inn may have exaggerated it (just because women liked him, it doesn't mean Kinraid actually took advantage of them all). I also believe Kinraid was sincere in his intentions to Sylvia, and that he'd chosen a woman and decided to settle down.

This section has proved to be worth the setup from the earlier ones, which were a bit tedious to read, with trying to get used to the dialect. Now that I can read along faster with it, and with the dramatic plot developments, I am more interested. Philip seems like a very decent and ethical young man in general, but his feelings for Sylvia have provoked his decision to keep silent about Kinraid's capture, and must bode ill for him later. It's such a shame that the love interests have ended up one-sided so far with William loving Hester, who loves Philip, who loves Sylvia.

Theresa wrote: "This section has proved to be worth the setup from the earlier ones, which were a bit tedious to read, with trying to get used to the dialect. Now that I can read along faster with it, and with the.dramatic plot developments, I am more interested..."

Exactly how I felt and it had me wondering whether I did "get used to the dialect" or whether there were just less instances of the dialect during this week's section. Probably a bit of both.
There was more exposition than difficult dialect during the "dramatic plot developments" but I also thought the very last conversation in the section between Philip and "mother" Alice was not difficult to understand, It may be that the dialect is more garbelled when it's the older males like Robson and Simpson. Whatever the reason, I'm just glad the book got more interesting

‘Hepburn's baulked hope was the Mordecai sitting in Haman's gate;’

Esther 5:9

Theresa wrote: "This section has proved to be worth the setup from the earlier ones, which were a bit tedious to read, with trying to get used to the dialect. Now that I can read along faster with it, and with the..."

I think that Gaskell really likes letting her readers understand the society prior to moving the plot forward.

I noticed that the British press gang used standard English, vulgar as it might have been.

Philip’s ‘love’ for Sylvia has now become a dangerous obsession, so much so that the virtuous character he has striven long and hard to develop seems about to be blown apart by his cruel deceit. His decision to withhold the information about Charley shows he wants the selfish possession of Sylvia at almost any cost, rather than make her happier with news that Charley is still alive. The author describes his downfall:-
’He was like too many of us, he did not place his future life in the hands of God, and only ask for grace to do His will in whatever circumstances might arise; but he yearned in that terrible way after a blessing which, when granted under such circumstances, too often turns out to be equivalent to a curse.’
Philip convinces himself that keeping quiet is best for Sylvia but no one else would agree with him. He might get lucky but it seems such an extreme risk to take because the audacious Charley seems quite capable of finding a way of escaping the press and returning to Monkshaven.

There is no doubt in my mind that Charley is a serial womaniser who has been charmed by the ‘shy innocence’ of Sylvia (something the women he usually pays attention to don’t possess) as well as being attracted more powerfully by her striking beauty. His decision to marry Sylvia is bound to be scoffed at by those who know of his past reputation and he has only himself to blame for that. There is a question mark about whether he really would settle down after his marriage but his parting words with Sylvia seemed sincere and obviously had a profound effect on her. I don’t think the secrecy of their engagement helped at all, making it even worse for Sylvia who had to bottle up all her emotions. Philip might even have confessed his knowledge of Charley at least to Daniel.
Reversing the lovers’ situations, If the tables were turned on the beach that day would Charley have kept quiet to win Sylvia?......Probably.

The ribbon in Charley’s hat seems symbolic of the catastrophic situation for the three lovers. Philip’s carefully selected ribbon, given with love to Sylvia only to be used by her as a love token to Charley, now found floating aimlessly in the sea, signalling the probable death of their relationship.
I almost agree with Alice when she said that it would have been better if the Robsons had never come to Monkshaven. It would definitely have been better for Philip and Charley.

I was touched by Sylvia’s heartfelt wish that her mother had been there when Charley came to propose. Bell’s knowledge of how much Sylvia cared for Charley would have been in his favour even though her first instincts might have been against the match. What she would have been worried about was that Charley had ‘prospects’ but no capital. He admitted that he had spent all his money (any guesses as to what it was spent on?) but he reeled off a list of promises that included a stake in a ship. That was indeed a possibility, but I think Bell might have wanted the engagement to wait until his prospects became certainties. As for Daniel, Elizabeth Gaskell describes him as a child who acts on impulse, so really Charley was dealing with two children the day he came to propose, making it easy to get what he wanted. Sylvia may dote on her father but, in hindsight, he did her no favours that day.

Once Charley disappeared Daniel turned against him, leaving Sylvia to suffer alone.
’even Daniel had turned against the specksioneer, irritated by the Corneys' loud moans over the loss of the man to whom their daughter said that she was attached. If Daniel wished for him to be alive again, it was mainly that the Corneys might be convinced that his last visit to the neighbourhood of Monkshaven was for the sake of the pale and silent Sylvia, and not for that of Bessy, who complained of Kinraid's untimely death rather as if by it she had been cheated of a husband than for any overwhelming personal love towards the deceased.’

Trev wrote: "Philip’s ‘love’ for Sylvia has now become a dangerous obsession, so much so that the virtuous character he has striven long and hard to develop seems about to be blown apart by his cruel deceit. Hi..."

But Philip is so realistic in that way. Very few of us keep our high moral principles when something extremely important to us is at stake. We find ways to justify ourselves. I really like his conflicted nature, it makes a nice change from many Victorian novels where characters are all good or all bad.

Charlotte wrote: " Did she even answer his proposal?..."

I came out of reading that section thinking Charlie and Sylvia were not officially engaged as I thought Sylvia never explicitly agreed to marry him. When Charlie talked with Sylvia's dad and the story said "he expressed in words his hearty consent to their engagement," I wondered if that had been a hold up to getting a final answer from Sylvia. But when the story started acting like they were engaged, I just assumed I either missed something through the dialect or didn't fully understand the social customs of the time. In reviewing it I think Gaskell's narration and Sylvia's indirect words and actions just implied a Sylvia acceptance.

Robin P wrote: "I noticed that the British press gang used standard English, vulgar as it might have been."

There really wasn't any such thing as 'standard English' in the 18th century (or even today, it's just that standardised spelling disgiuises our different dialects). And the crews of Royal Navy warships were by no means entirely English. Here's the break down for the crew of Nelson's HMS Victory.

'HMS Victory had a crew of 820 men at the Battle of Trafalgar.
The crew nationalities and numbers are as follows:
515 English, 80 Irish, 67 Scots, 30 Welsh, 22 Americans, 7 Dutch, 6 Maltese, 4 French, 4 Swedish, 4 West Indian, 2 Danish, 2 Swiss, 2 Indian, 2 Norwegian, 2 German, 2 Canadian, 1 Portuguese, 1 Brazillian, 1, 1 African and 1 Jamaican. There were also 48 of unknown nationality.'

Interestingly, a majority of the crew were not pressed into service, but volunteers. Personally, given a choice between an arctic whaler and a man-of-war I'd have chosen the navy. Discipline was harsher but the food and the weather better.

The petty officer commanding the press gang may have been from Bristol and spoken West Country dialect, which to my North American ear might sound pleasant and familiar. But the dialects spoken in the 18th century or even in Gaskill's day hardly exist anymore. I like going online to hear dialects recorded from older speakers in the 1950s.

Bill wrote: There really wasn't any such thing as 'standard English' in the 18th century (or even to..."

Poldark fans might be interested to know that the infamous rogue, Lieutenant Hugh Armitage was probably leading press gangs during his time away from his beloved Demelza. Considering that the time periods of Sylvia's Lovers and The Four Swans are in close proximity, by stretching the imagination a little, it could have been the lovelorn lieutenant’s men who caught the lovestruck specksioneer off his guard and pressed him into service.
I’m not sure I would want to spend my best years on a whaler or in the navy considering the findings of an Oxford University study into the remains of some of the sailors from Nelson’s fleet.

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archive...

My husband's ancestors are from South Shields, near Newcastle (North Shields is mentioned in this book) and they spoke a dialect called Geordie, which is apparently different from Yorkshire speech. I don't know if the dialect Gaskell depicts is accurate for the exact region. Maybe some of you are more knowledgeable on English variants.

Robin P wrote: "My husband's ancestors are from South Shields, near Newcastle (North Shields is mentioned in this book) and they spoke a dialect called Geordie, which is apparently different from Yorkshire speech...."

It is documented in the John Rylands library in Manchester that Elizabeth Gaskell went to Whitby to research Sylvia's Lovers, including the dialects and day today lives of whaling families and farming communities.

With regards to Newcastle and South Shields, I have taken part in the Great North Run nine times. It is a half marathon starting close to the Tyne Bridge in Newcastle and ending on the seafront at South Shields. The Geordie dialect is still going strong and amongst some of the older generations their pronunciations are so strongly infused with the dialect that you almost need an interpreter. By the way, does your husband know what a ‘stottie’ is?
Because Whitby is in the northern most part of North Yorkshire there is a mingling of dialects between the Geordie and the Yorkshire. The County of Durham lies between North Yorkshire and Northumberland and the people there have a softer Geordie accent.
There is a British TV series called ‘Vera’ based on the detective novels of Ann Cleeves, which has been running on ITV for the last ten years. It is set in Newcastle. If you get the chance to watch it, you can hear some of the Geordie accents coming through.
Bell’s accent and dialect would have been considerably different coming from Cumberland which, although still the North of England, lies on the west coast about 100 miles away.

Incidentally, Philip’s walk to Hartlepool would be some effort. Google maps says it would take 15 hours to walk the 45 miles from Whitby to Hartlepool, but that would be via the roads. As the crow flies it is 28 miles but that would be over the sea. Even along the beaches and coast it would probably be about 30 to 35 miles.

Brian wrote: "Charlotte wrote: " Did she even answer his proposal?..."

I came out of reading that section thinking Charlie and Sylvia were not officially engaged as I thought Sylvia never explicitly agreed to m - when the story started acting like they were engaged, I just assumed I either missed something..."

Thank you, it was along those lines that I thought too. I am thinking that maybe Gaskell made it unclear on purpose, for added drama.

Brian wrote: "The book has finally developed an interesting plot and, the situation where readers have premonitions of possible adverse future events based on current happening.......The book is reminding me more now of a Thomas Hardy novel, which is a good thing. "

Same. When Philip started rationalizing on not telling about the boat scene, and then in May when he heard about the "drowning" - my mind took events down a couple of tragic, Thomas-Hardian tracks.

Motifs - how about flowers.
The hopes and innocent daisies of spring have given way to tragic briar-rose - thorns among the roses, thistle encroaching on blooms. Or, been supplanted by the prosaic: onions, potato patches and pots of kitchen herbs.

The journey of that ribbon (forfeited on New Year's Eve) is quite a touch.