Support for Indie Authors discussion

Someone recently asked me where I got my ideas for the novels I’ve written. I had to think about it. I’ve never come up with an entire plot in a single sitting. What I do is collect tiny snippets of thoughts over the course of many months (years even), and when I’m ready to start a new book, I sort through all of them until a rough story line (or more) emerges. Then, when I’m outlining the narrative, I add to it until it becomes a complete story.

I’m curious as to how other authors do it.

First comes a generic idea, something that fits into a sentence. Over the course of a few days, I think about it and try to develop it to decide whether it works as a novel. The next step is the actual planning. I first work on the characters to get a sense of who they are, why they are this way, and what they want, then write down the main plot points. This usually takes 2-3 days. Then, I go to scene level, usually one-two sentences for each scene, though I am very flexible when I write the first draft.

Mine usually start with a general concept for the story or world, coupled with a visualization of the first scene. I usually won't start writing them unless I've also got at least some idea of how the story ends. But not always. Sometimes I just start writing from first concept.

I've tried outlining but in the end I always end up spending too much time adjusting my outline to fit what I actually write, so I have decided there's no point in outlining for me. I have at certain points had to sit down and write a "What's Really Going On" document in which I define the true players their motives, and how to tie up all the loose ends I've created while flying by the seat of my pants. Usually that comes when the book is about 2/3rds done.

I like the vagueness of not knowing it all ahead of time. That allows happy accidents to happen, unanticipated twists that come to me while writing. While making art, music, writing ... the best results always seem to come while I balance on the knife's edge with control on one side and random chaos on the other.

I start with a premise that hasn't been used (or rarely used before). Then I outline a treatment and major characters. Then I write, using the treatment as a guide, and modify as I go. I always write in chronological order. No matter how much I want to get to the climax, I always write in order to better get a feel for the characters.

I like the Stephen King model. Put your protagonist in a difficult position in the first chapter and then use the story to get them out. But not before things get worse, much worse. Martha Wells has mastered this model. Each book of MurderBot is the same formula. But you love the characters so much, you don't care. You just want to keep going on the journey with them over and over again.

I don't write an outline. Like Micah, I always end up adjusting the outline to the story. No point. But I do have to go back in edits and change some of the story to make sure the the logic and motivations of my characters and plot in the end match the beginning. I find this the most fun part of writing. Going back and bringing the beginning towards the end. I am always surprised by how accurate some of the plot lines were at foreshadowing the end I didn't even know back then.

Most important for me is to not get hung up on making it all work in first draft. Just let the story come out and keep writing. Then go back and stitch it all together.

Daniel wrote: "Most important for me is to not get hung up on making it all work in first draft. Just let the story come out and keep writing. Then go back and stitch it all together."

I agree with this.

For me, I generally get a basic idea for a story, spend a few days thinking about some of the details of how it will work as a book, making notes and getting important facts down about characters and plot, then I just start writing. Yes, I have to go back and fix problems later, but I find I'm usually best just writing that first draft and getting it all down while it's in my head. Continuity errors, plot holes, etc. can always be dealt with afterwards. I also usually find that I hit the markers I was aiming for, even if the characters do develop their own minds to the point of wandering off on tangents occasionally!

Elle wrote: "First comes a generic idea, something that fits into a sentence. Over the course of a few days, I think about it and try to develop it to decide whether it works as a novel. The next step is the ac..."

Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for sharing, Elle.

Micah wrote: "Mine usually start with a general concept for the story or world, coupled with a visualization of the first scene. I usually won't start writing them unless I've also got at least some idea of how ..."

Thanks for sharing, Micah. I prepare an outline and tweak it if the story goes into another direction, but I know other authors who (like you) find it easier to forgo the outline.

Phillip wrote: "I start with a premise that hasn't been used (or rarely used before). Then I outline a treatment and major characters. Then I write, using the treatment as a guide, and modify as I go. I always wri..."

I'm like you, Philip, and have to write in chronological order. Thanks for sharing your approach.

Daniel wrote: "I like the Stephen King model. Put your protagonist in a difficult position in the first chapter and then use the story to get them out. But not before things get worse, much worse. Martha Wells ha..."

I love your last paragraph, Daniel. Very good advice!

Valerie wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Most important for me is to not get hung up on making it all work in first draft. Just let the story come out and keep writing. Then go back and stitch it all together."

I agree wit..."

I also find it interesting when the story seems to take on a life of its own. When that happens, I go with it. There have been times I've reversed it and gone back to my original premise, but not very often. Thanks for sharing.

The idea for my next novel always comes about halfway through my current one. I develop the new one -- in my mind and in notes -- while finishing off the old one. If I'm in the middle of a trilogy, then the source of the idea is fairly obvious. Less so if the next novel is the start of a new story.

Thanks, Jim. I don't know about you, but when this happens to me, I must write it down, or it gets lost somewhere in my head.

Florence wrote: "Thanks, Jim. I don't know about you, but when this happens to me, I must write it down, or it gets lost somewhere in my head."

I'm the opposite. I don't write new ideas down. If a fresh idea doesn't stick with me, I take that as a sign it wasn't a good idea to begin with. I'm never lacking for ideas for a story or novel, as it is. Plus, especially for the short stories, my writing is generally a reflection of whatever I'm going through at the time.

When it comes to how I go about writing, when I have an idea that's pestering me long enough and I've turned it around in my brain long enough to see if there's really a story there, I start by writing sketchy scenes, the ones that I see most clearly. Early on I don't worry too much about how it will start or end or who will be in it or whatever, as that stuff changes so much in the process. When I've sketched out everything that needs sketching, I go back to the start and begin retooling the scraps and building on them. Eventually I look for ways to connect them, move things around to where the work best in the story, build the characters that feel they need to be there, eliminate the duds, tweak around with names and other garbage. It's all chaotic experimenting, like a mad scientist dinking around with a lot of chemicals just to see what happens. If it does nothing, I dump it. If it makes a pretty mess, I keep it.

Dwayne wrote: "Florence wrote: "Thanks, Jim. I don't know about you, but when this happens to me, I must write it down, or it gets lost somewhere in my head."

I'm the opposite. I don't write new ideas down. If a..."

Interesting. I wish I had that kind of memory. :-)

Dwayne wrote: "When it comes to how I go about writing, when I have an idea that's pestering me long enough and I've turned it around in my brain long enough to see if there's really a story there, I start by wri..."

Dwayne wrote: "When it comes to how I go about writing, when I have an idea that's pestering me long enough and I've turned it around in my brain long enough to see if there's really a story there, I start by wri..."

Wow. Goes to show you how different we authors are. I could never write like that, Dwayne, but admire you and others who can. Sounds like a lot more fun than the way I do it (I'm a planner in writing and pretty much in life). Thanks for sharing.

Florence wrote: "I'm a planner in writing..."

I have tried it and it bores me. Writing has to remain fun or I won't do it. A question that gets asked here from time to time is, "Do you treat your writing more as a business or a hobby?" For me it's a bit of both, but mostly it's therapy. So, I have to play it fast and loose or I'll lose interest and probably will become mad (thought not a scientist).

I do things a little differently. I have the beginning and end in mind when I start. To me, writing is the fun in imagining and creating what comes in the middle that connects the beginning to the end. That process is what keeps me going on a project.

Dwayne wrote: "Florence wrote: "I'm a planner in writing..."

I have tried it and it bores me. Writing has to remain fun or I won't do it. A question that gets asked here from time to time is, "Do you treat your ..."

I hear ya, Dwayne. I love what I'm doing as well. And I also treat it like a business. But I hope to be able to hire someone some day to do all the promoting and marketing stuff, which I don't love.

For longer works that take time for me to cultivate, I tend to keep two primary documents in flight: a) the manuscript itself, and b) what I call the story’s FAQ. Rather than embedding outstanding questions, notes on story arc, plot commentary, character backstory, and related “under development” asides in the context of the manuscript proper, it works better for me to carve them off into a sideboard document. I settled on the Q&A format for it because that’s how I think about a story as it comes together. It’s mostly a raft of questions or concerns I need to address prior to finishing (or, in some cases, deferring them to a sequel). Such questions can pop up anytime, anyplace, and it’s quite handy having a bucket on hand to dump them in until I can get around to dealing with them.

New stories for me start out something like 75% FAQ and 25% rough draft focused. By the time the first draft is done, the ratio has flipped. I’ve used outlines off and on for different works but they tend to come into play later. It’s as if I want to get the bones fairly well defined before I try making a skeleton out of it. I suppose that risks me ending up with a T-Rex when I should have been assembling an aardvark, but hey, that’s part of the joy of discovery.

Todd wrote: "For longer works that take time for me to cultivate, I tend to keep two primary documents in flight: a) the manuscript itself, and b) what I call the story’s FAQ. Rather than embedding outstanding ..."

Another interesting approach. Thanks for sharing. And who's to say there's not an attentive audience out there for a T-Rex? The aardvark can wait for another time. :-)

As for myself... I honestly don't know. The initial idea for my project was a jumble of random ideas I've eventually woven into a story and iterated on it. Ideas for future projects in the same world come and go, I note them if I can, and time will tell if there will be anything out of them.

Tomas wrote: "As for myself... I honestly don't know. The initial idea for my project was a jumble of random ideas I've eventually woven into a story and iterated on it. Ideas for future projects in the same wor..."

Great things can come from a "jumble of random ideas." Thanks for sharing.

Idea, as Neil Gaiman said, you make up unless you are writing a true story. You get your ideas from your brain, or if you are like me, you see a headline or read a news article or over hear someone telling a story or have a friend tell you their life story and use those as the basis for a story. You get your storyline from life...be it real or fantasy.

The storyline is basically how you plan to tell that idea. True stories you just follow what actually happened. In fiction, you, the author, is making it all up. Just remember that all story has the same structure that has been used since stories were first told. We are hardwired to this story pattern. If you do not follow that pattern, you run the risk of having a story no one wants to read.

I've seen the writers who say they don't have to follow that pattern. That is true you don't. But don't expect to sell that book other than as an experimental piece. Remember that to break the rules, you need to know the rules and why they are there.

With that said, if you evaluate every book that you love to read, you will find that the basic structure is the same in all of those books. So when you are thinking storyline with your conjured idea, make sure you have all the parts there to make it work. It doesn't matter if you outline or pants it or something in between.

B.A. wrote: "Idea, as Neil Gaiman said, you make up unless you are writing a true story. You get your ideas from your brain, or if you are like me, you see a headline or read a news article or over hear someone..."

I agree with you, B. A. Once you have that inkling for a story line, structuring the narrative is important or you risk losing readers. How the book is organized--how the plot is revealed to the reader--makes a difference. Thanks for sharing.

I'm a extensive planner and outliner. I really have enjoyed world-building on my first Fantasy novel-and credible, internally-consistent world-building takes a lot of planning. (and hyphens). I feel like there's this idealized reader out there who will read so closely what I write that they will catch any inconsistencies in my world, so it makes me scrupulous in detail and fact-checking.

For story outline, I actually use real index cards for each distinct scene with a simple sentence like: "Irving goes to the temple and finds a dead body". Then I can spread them out on a big table and see the movement of the plot. (I'm a visual artist by training!) I can also can see what needs to come before another event to make it all consistent.

Something fun that happens lately is I will be driving or working and I suddenly imagine a scene between two characters that is in some hypothetical future. Then the fun part is figuring out how to build a storyline around that scene. Makes for some awesome plot acrobatics.

I jot down plot ideas on sticky notes and put them up on a bulletin board-- then reconsider and rearrange them each time I come into the study in the morning. Eventually the rough plot takes form... enough for me to proceed.

I use Scrivener for my 'cards' since I have a microscopic place without room for a bulletin board or a table big enough to use. (I can't wait to get my office finished. It will be almost as big was the RV that I live in.) Any way, I love that I have everything in one spot and Scrivener 3 is coming out--hopefully this month--and I'm finding it much easier to use. I can keep my research all in one place and organize it into folders so it's easy to find.

I can agree that that one or two sentences on a card can show you were your plot is going. Mine is on the corkboard in Scrivener. You can write scenes and move them around. You can also do character sheets, settings, time lines, etc. I use Scapple for mind maps for my mystery books and for the more complicated ones where there are a lot of relationships that you need to keep straight.

I agree, that setting up a book can be a lot of fun and like writing, each person has their own method.

David wrote: "I'm a extensive planner and outliner. I really have enjoyed world-building on my first Fantasy novel-and credible, internally-consistent world-building takes a lot of planning. (and hyphens). I fee..."

I love the index card process. What a great visual! Thanks for sharing.

James wrote: "I jot down plot ideas on sticky notes and put them up on a bulletin board-- then reconsider and rearrange them each time I come into the study in the morning. Eventually the rough plot takes form....."

The sticky note idea (similar to David's index cards) is a great tool. Thanks for sharing.

B.A. wrote: "I use Scrivener for my 'cards' since I have a microscopic place without room for a bulletin board or a table big enough to use. (I can't wait to get my office finished. It will be almost as big was..."

I've heard a lot of authors use Scrivener. Thanks for sharing.

It varies. Ideas have come from (a) discovering the unknown past of a friend; (b) reading my daughter’s book report; (c) being commissioned; (d) making a play into a novel, with the minor characters becoming major; (e) our babysitter’s murder; (e) our own 40 years of theatrical touring, (f) skimming a book on brain trauma and asking, “Why’s this on the coffee table?” And dozens of other directions. Often stories cross-pollinate. The fact of Beth’s murder sparked nothing until (a) I saw a drunk guy screaming in a bar, demanding someone play The Rolling Stones and (b) having to fire an impossible worker in our company.

I always do an outline, but revise it upon completing each chapter, as things may veer radically in the process. In the current piece, two secondary characters started to fall in love—not foreseen—so more flowed from that than expected.

And after the first draft, I go through for details on my character outlines, adding info on background, appearance, habits, anything relevant—partly to catch inconsistencies, but also because it starts to bring up new questions and potentials.

Conrad wrote: "It varies. Ideas have come from (a) discovering the unknown past of a friend; (b) reading my daughter’s book report; (c) being commissioned; (d) making a play into a novel, with the minor character..."

Thank you for sharing, Conrad. Your approach is similar to many of ours in that a story idea can emerge from even the smallest detail. Authors are amazing in that regard. They can grow something that starts out small and insignificant into something large and engaging. I like your focus on characterization.

Florence wrote: "Someone recently asked me where I got my ideas for the novels I’ve written. I had to think about it. I’ve never come up with an entire plot in a single sitting. What I do is collect tiny snippets o..."

I do exactly what you do, Florence. Just collect little ideas and then, eventually, once they've built up enough that I can see a story in them (and usually by this point it's nagging me and won't leave me alone) I then go into the actual "planning" stage which just means taking all these ideas and sorting them into some kind of chronological order so I can see the overall storyline better.

Once the idea is developed enough in my mind and on my written notes I often make outlines with chapter titles and a brief note on what scenes/main events will happen in each chapter. I've never actually stuck to these very closely: often the best ideas, subplots, and details come when I'm in the middle of writing and I go along with these new developments and see where they'll take me.

We think alike, Noor. Thanks for sharing.