Appointment With Agatha discussion

Since I have recently reread the February side read (The Nine Tailors - which is a terrific read), I'm not going to be doing a full reread. A few people have indicated an interest in reading Fallen into the Pit by Ellis Peters with me.

This is the first entry in her *other* (i.e., non-Brother Cadfael) series, Felse Investigations, which are set in the 1950's and feature Inspector George Felse. Lucky for me, my library has two electronic copies available, so I have already downloaded and have the book checked out through 2/17.

I've just put the ecopy on hold. It should be available in about two weeks, at the most.
I read the series in the 90s, so it will be like reading the book for the first time.

I have a paperback version I picked up at one of the book barns a few years ago, so I'm ready to go once the rest of the group is!

I think that I will plan to read this one next weekend!

I've wanted to read this one for a while - I have a physical copy that I can not find at the moment (so frustrating but typical as I have moved around for work the last few years so.......boxes of books are a thing) however, my library has it in e-copy. I will be starting it this weekend.

I don´t know if I can squash it in this month, but it´s on my tbr list. :)

I will read it as well!

Btw The Nine Tailors will be in March, so will you read this in February or in March?

Michaela wrote: "Btw The Nine Tailors will be in March, so will you read this in February or in March?"

Oh - good question. I got myself all confused. Let me mull it over!

LOL on the confusion - me too!

OK - I'm reworking my plans & holding onto this one for March, since I won't be trying to work in The Nine Tailors!

I'm still waiting for my library copy. Once it arrives I have three weeks to read it, so I'm in no hurry.

March sounds good.

I will probably start in a week or two, so March would work out well for a discussion.

My library hold came in, so I plan to read this one soon!

I've started this one and after a slow start it has really picked up.

I just started this one!

I am having very uncharitable feelings directed at the putative murder victim and will not have a sad when he gets what's coming to him.

Oh, man, Helmut deserved what he got. What a terrible character. The biggest surprise is that he lived as long as he did. Impossible to tell whodunit at this point, because the number of people with motives is endless.

I hope it was Gerd, and I hope she gets away with it.

Helmut certainly made a lot of enemies!

Starting this tonight!

Christine PNW wrote: "Oh, man, Helmut deserved what he got. What a terrible character. The biggest surprise is that he lived as long as he did. Impossible to tell whodunit at this point, because the number of people wit..."

I need to finally start this!

What's with all the German names?

I am at the end of chapter 1 and, unsurprisingly, relishing the thought that the despicable Helmut is to be murdered. Fallen
Into the Pit is my first Ellis Peters— I’m entranced with her imagery.
Back to the book!

Rather appropriately, “Schaufler” — with one L — translates to “digger” or “shoveler”. Clue? Or a nod to coal mining?
I’m only in chapter 4, so time will tell. :)

Marie wrote: "Into the Pit is my first Ellis Peters."

If you've never read her Brother Cadfael books, I highly recommend them. They should be easily available at your local library, and if you are a kindle reader, they occasionally go on sale as the Kindle Daily Deal for $2.99 a book. I bought the whole set last time they were on sale.

They are medieval mysteries, set during The Anarchy, 1135 to 1155, set in Shrewsbury, Western England. She's not as accomplished a mystery plotter as our dear Agatha, but her tone, setting and characters are wonderful, and Cadfael himself is an amalgam of scientist/herbalist and badass warrior, with a romantic streak a mile wide (sort of like Papa Poirot there). I've read the first 14, and am slowly parceling out the remaining 7 because I will be so sad to see them end. Luckily, I'm a rereader, so I'll be able to revisit her wonderful world whenever I want!

Christine PNW wrote: "If you've never read her Brother Cadfael books, I highly recommend them. ."

Seconded, absolutely -- and I've read them all (repeatedly) ... they're high up on the list of my personal comfort reads; for the setting and atmosphere as much as for Cadfael himself.

Christine PNW wrote: "Marie wrote: "Into the Pit is my first Ellis Peters."

If you've never read her Brother Cadfael books, I highly recommend them. They should be easily available at your local library, and if you are..."

If you're interested Christine, we have an on-going buddy read of Cadfael in the Reading the Detectives group. We're just about to start The Virgin in the Ice.

100% agree with your description of this series too. I always feel transported when reading one, and I think she is so successful at giving you a truly medieval feel--nothing is anachronistic. Generally that is such a weakness with most modern writers who try to write historical fiction, and one can understand why. Language has a different sound and rhythm that what must have been in the past. And of course we only have limited knowledge of how people sounded in the 12th century. But still, quite excellent.

Tara wrote: "I always feel transported when reading one, and I think she is so successful at giving you a truly medieval feel--nothing is anachronistic. Generally that is such a weakness with most modern writers who try to write historical fiction, and one can understand why. Language has a different sound and rhythm that what must have been in the past. And of course we only have limited knowledge of how people sounded in the 12th century. But still, quite excellent."

Yes, yes, and yes -- that's precisely what I love about the Cadfael books, too (aside from Cadfael himself, of course, whose character is the primary reason why I love these books in the first place) ... in fact I just said so, too, though decidedly less eloquently, in a discussion elsewhere! :)

Tara wrote: "Christine PNW wrote: "Marie wrote: "Into the Pit is my first Ellis Peters."

If you've never read her Brother Cadfael books, I highly recommend them. They should be easily available at your local l..."

Ah, thank you! I’ve just reserved my first Brother Cadfael from NYPL. It’s such a delight to be invited into everyone’s “inner library”—Appointment with Agatha keeps expanding and enriching my literary life!

Marie wrote: It’s such a delight to be invited into everyone’s “inner library”

I'm clicking on the non-existent "like" button.

It really is a pain in the pattootie (choose your own painful body part) that in order to like a comment we can't do it in the thread but have to hope that the person is a friend when we go to their Update Feed to find the post and click on the like button there. And then there are folks like me who hate the Update Feed and never comments to their feed.

Peregrina651 wrote: "Marie wrote: It’s such a delight to be invited into everyone’s “inner library”

I'm clicking on the non-existent "like" button.

It really is a pain in the pattootie (choose your own painful body p..."

I agree the like feature would be nice within a thread/comment. Compared to other social media platforms, I find that Goodreads brings out the best in people (at the least within the groups I belong to.) Such wonderful conversation and discoveries of authors I would probably never have found on my own.

Yes, you were just saying that, TA! I forgot about this side read, so I might start it after I finish my current mystery book. I've read one other Felse and thought it was pretty good.

Alright I started this and I have to say I'd forgotten just how long the chapters were in these books.

Well, I've finally started it and am about a third of the way in (view spoiler)[(the murder has just happened) (hide spoiler)]. I have to say that Ellis pretty much had me from page 1, with her description of the changes in English (rural) society brought about by the war, and the returning soldiers' rocky path back into the fold of their former homes, where nobody shared their war experience -- whereas life "back home" had, in turn, moved on without them, too. So very well done!

I also rather like George Felse ... and Chad Wedderburn (view spoiler)[(whom Peters is apparently setting up as the murder suspect, which makes me fairly confident that despite all appearances he's innocent). I really hope I'm not going to have to eat my words here. (hide spoiler)]

I finished a couple of days ago. I liked it, but I still strongly prefer her Cadfael series.

I really liked Chad Wedderburn as well - and I ended up really loving Dominick. I'm usually not a fan of the plot moppet, but there was nothing moppet-ish about Dom and I thought that Peters did a great job with his character.

Christine PNW wrote: "I really liked Chad Wedderburn as well - and I ended up really loving Dominick. I'm usually not a fan of the plot moppet, but there was nothing moppet-ish about Dom and I thought that Peters did a great job with his character."

She did. I really like Dom, too. And you know, the final Felse novels actually have him starring as the investigator -- either solo or alongside his father!

That was certainly a suspenseful ending!

Themis-Athena (Lioness at Large) wrote: "I wonder what Caroline will think of it all?"

I didn't know & I LOVE that idea!

I'm a bit shocked, but I actually guessed the murderer about halfway through (this never happens) and even figured out the ultimate/oldest secret (view spoiler)[about the wife (hide spoiler)]. Well, some of it. (view spoiler)[I had assumed he killed her for trying to run off rather than plotting the entire thing coldbloodedly. (hide spoiler)] Maybe I should blame recently watching (view spoiler)[The Stranger (hide spoiler)].

Funnily enough I didn't clue in to the exact motivations behind Helmut's demise.

Loved this one! For the first time ever, I guessed the murderer, though I still found several satisfying revelations. I was captivated by the urgency and suspense of Dom’s scheme. Looking forward to reading the entire Felse series!

Helmut is quite the schemer-- preying on people's most sensitive emotions to provoke a response, and then playing the victim. Very sinister indeed.

He is a nasty character, for sure.

I do appreciate the sentiment of putting the war behind them, and to not judge someone just because they were a German solider. After all, a decent percentage of them weren't particularly political, but were either fighting for patriotic reasons, or because they were conscripted. Helmut was just not someone worthy of that assumption.

Tara wrote: "I do appreciate the sentiment of putting the war behind them, and to not judge someone just because they were a German solider. After all, a decent percentage of them weren't particularly political..."

I appreciate it, too, but it is perilous. It's an iteration of the Paradox of Tolerance:

The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance.

Not only was Helmut not worthy of the assumption, he leveraged the good will of the community in order to actively cause harm. He was the "intolerant" who seized and destroyed his community, which refused to stand up to him in the name of "tolerance."

Thanks, Christine! I’d never heard of the Paradox of Tolerance—I’m learning so much from our discussions.

I’m am happily immersed in Brother Cadfael #1. 📚❤️

Marie wrote: "Thanks, Christine! I’d never heard of the Paradox of Tolerance—I’m learning so much from our discussions.

I’m am happily immersed in Brother Cadfael #1. 📚❤️"

Oh, I hope you are enjoying it!

Marie wrote: "Thanks, Christine! I’d never heard of the Paradox of Tolerance—I’m learning so much from our discussions.

I’m am happily immersed in Brother Cadfael #1. 📚❤️"

Oooh, if only I could read it again for the very first time! :)

Other than some of the individual characters (the Felses -- all three of them --, Chad, and Pussy), I think what I appreciate most about this book is how Peters shows what the murders have done to the community, and why it is so important to have them cleared up, even if the first victim was rightly and universally despised. Agatha Christie makes a similar point in some of her novels -- that crimes must not go unresolved in order to remove the shadow of suspicion from the innocent -- but in her books, not all of those who turn out to be innocent are likeable characters; nor do they typically constitute a homogenous group. Here, on the other hand, we're dealing with a close-knit community which in and of itself is in peril of breaking up as a result of the murders, so it is not merely in order to clear the innocent that the murderer must be found but also in order to allow the community as such to heal.

And I think the second murder emphasizes the notion of the Paradox of Tolerance even further, because it is there that we understand that this murderer has not (seemingly) performed a service to the community by killing an abusive leech unworthy of the goodwill shown to him, but this is simply someone who will forcibly and terminally remove anyone coming in their way, regardless how well-liked and integral a part of the community that person may be (view spoiler)[and regardless how closely related to them.

And of course, the same point is also made by the identity of the murderer: Peters is not just making the obvious statement that nobody is above the law; she's also showing just how corrosive it is to a close-knit community if a supposed pillar of that community (of all people) takes to murder. (hide spoiler)]

I have omnibus editions of all the Felse novels; I contemplated moving right on to the next one after having finished the first book, but after sneaking a bit of a preview I found that except for the Felses the cast of characters changes in the next book (so, no Pussy anymore, sniff, nor Chad), and I think I'll want to take a bit of a break after all before I'm ready to move on with a new cast of characters.

Christine PNW wrote: "Tara wrote: "I do appreciate the sentiment of putting the war behind them, and to not judge someone just because they were a German solider. After all, a decent percentage of them weren't particula..."

Tolerance can certainly be taken advantage of if it is just applied with a broad brush rather than by consideration of the individual case. Europeans really should have known better after the failed attempts at appeasing Hitler, but I suppose there was an element where some felt it was necessary to move on emotionally from the war. After all, hatred and anger are very self-destructive emotions if not controlled and channeled.

I've finally sat down to catch up with writing reviews over Easter -- here's the one for Fallen into the Pit: https://themisathena.info/ellis-peter...