The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Kester starts visiting Sylvia fairly regularly and tells her Kinraid has left town. Hester receives a letter from Philip indicating he will never return and asking her to watch over Sylvia, Sylvia seeks advice from Jeremiah. The Fosters decide Hester, her mother, Sylvia, and the baby should live together. Kinraid is shot in battle yet saved by Philip who is serving under an assumed name. Molly visits Sylvia. Both find they have drifted apart. Molly tells Sylvia Kinraid is married. Kinraid’s wife visits Sylvia and informs her of Philip saving Kinraid. Philip is seriously injured and has permanent damage to his face caused by an explosion. He then takes shelter and becomes introspective. After reading a parable, Philip decides to go home only to be sorely disappointed that Sylvia seems well and happy.

Has your opinion of Kinraid and Philip changed? What do you see in their characters?

How have assumptions affected the lives of the characters!

Why are parents in these books always considered elderly? Alice Rose is, what, 50, tops? And Bell was probably the same age, but both were called "old" and "elderly." So was Daniel, who I'm guessing wasn't much more than 60, if that.

I'm not surprised that Philip saved Kinraid. He was always a good person with one glaring flaw. And I suppose he's more than redeemed himself, so I wish him the best from here on out. I am, however, surprised Philip could actually carry Kinraid; I guess he must have put on quite a bit of muscle.

My opinion of Kinraid hasn't changed. I've always thought of him as an easy-going person who likes women. I believe he loved Sylvia and would have stayed true to her, but he's not the type to mourn for long if he can't have the woman he wants. He's not going to pursue a married woman who has told him she won't see him again, and I don't really blame him for marrying so quickly. Sylvia now sees him for what he's always been.

When I finished this section, my hypothesis was that maybe at some point Kester would see Philip in Monkshaven and work to bring him and Sylvia back together. By the way, I always appreciated how the Robsons treated Kester as part of the family. (Edited to change "Charley" to "Philip")

This book was "longer" than I'd expected. I mean, I saw the page numbers and chapters, but I hadn't expected the book to cover such a large portion of the characters' lives, if you know what I mean. I guess I'm used to Trollope, where the book usually ends when the main characters get married (though most of his books were physically longer, the time period was usually shorter).

Gaskell always covers large segments of the lives of her characters.

The average life span in England in the 1700s was 35. So 60 would be elderly

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&r...

Deborah wrote: "Has your opinion of Kinraid and Philip changed? What do you see in their characters?

I can see why you asked the question because Philip's good traits are being highlighted in this section as is Charley's 'adaptability' in turning around and getting married fairly soon after being dispatched by Sylvia. However, this shouldn't change the reader's overall evaluation, as it's more of an emphasis on traits that have been there.
I'm in full agreement with Lori's assessment and opinion on both. Philip is always been a good person who did a horrible and indefensible thing because of an unreasonable and obsessive desire for Sylvia, Charley is a good-time Charley who would have been true to Sylvia but knows he has to move on to enjoy life. So he moves on. If Philip had a bit of Charlie's adaptability then everyone would have been a lot happier, maybe Hester too, but then we wouldn't have this good story.

Lori wrote: "Why are parents in these books always considered elderly? Alice Rose is, what, 50, tops?.."

As Deborah points out, with life spans were so much shorter. So with life spans much shorter, middle and old age would start sooner. That's the math.
But some of the low life span is probably because of so many children dying. For those who did survive into adulthood, with health care so poor at the time and work and life physically harder, their bodies fell apart from wear and tear a lot sooner. So a 50 year old then was probably physically similar to a 70 year old today. You could say that today's 70 is the new 50.

The place where Philip stays for a few months reminded so much of The Warden by Trollope. They were gracious taking him in but not when he wanted to leave. He had been accorded a favor to let him move in based on his connections. I suppose there were others eager to have a place.

His damaged face is a precursor to the many WWI soldiers who had their faces destroyed and wore tin masks. I wonder if people would recognize him.

What about the romantic notion Philip takes on that his life will be like a tale where he can live anonymously and have a dramatic reconciliation at the end of his life? Instead he finds Sylvia, who is of course very young still, looking happy. I suppose no one else tried to propose to Sylvia because they had to wait the 7 years to declare him dead. Which reminds me, Molly certainly manages to offend in every way possible, by bringing up Charley and encouraging Sylvia to get through the 7 years to get back on the marriage market! Actually Sylvia would be a catch if she still has a share in the business. When Jeremiah took to Bella so well, I had a fear that he was going to try to adopt her and Sylvia would sacrifice herself and go back to farm work!

Robin P wrote: "The place where Philip stays for a few months reminded so much of The Warden by Trollope. .."

I had the same feeling. It was a good feeling, like I knew what was going on there. Being a bedesman doesn't sound too bad, but I do have bad knees.
While I normally think of Trollope as writing in the era just after Gaskell, their careers did overlap and, in this case, the Warden was published earlier, in 1855 compared to Sylvia's Lovers 1863 date.

Such a tragedy. No one (but Jeremiah) knows what Sylvia has been trough and what Philip has done. Charley does not know either that Sylvia was actually true to him.

Charley moved on. Philip’s love for Sylvia was a deeper love than Charley’s - a love that she could never appreciate.

If Philip had not been by the ocean and not been a figure in the story of Charley and Sylvia, the two might have married, Charley might also have been taken by the press gang and he would have been killed in Accre. Sylvia would not have had any more enjoyment of Charley than what she had in our story. She would have been widowed, perhaps with a child, anyway.

Poor Sylvia’s life was afflicted by two men. They formed her fate and made her miserable. She didn’t do anything, she was just a modest and beautiful woman.

We see Sylvia happy and content in a matriarchal nucleus now. (Men are useless.) Hester is the business woman, Sylvia takes care of her mother and Sylvia has a family for her child.

Robin P wrote: "The place where Philip stays for a few months reminded so much of The Warden by Trollope. They were gracious taking him in but not when he wanted to leave. He had been accorded a favo..."

It sounds like both are based on the Hospital of St Cross in Winchester

https://hospitalofstcross.co.uk/history/

which still exists today and I knew of a man who went to live there as a brother so Brian that remains an option for you! It is open to visitors as well (once Covid is over, I assume) and is well worth a visit.

My feelings for Philip haven't changed as, as Lori mentions, I always believed he was a good person who did one terrible thing, and at this point I think he has earned forgiveness and redemption, if a renewed life with Sylvia is possible.

I don't think of Kinraid as quite a "good time Charley". He did remain true to Sylvia for 3 years through everything and returned to find her as soon as he could, but once he realized she was lost to him I I don't fault him for moving on. I also think that, with his promotions and likely his starting to move in more educated circles, and having earned quite a bit of money on the spoils of war, he may have moved stations in life (was the military the only way to do this? I believe Frederick Wentworth in Persuasion did something similar). He appears to have married a much wealthier and better educated young woman than Sylvia, with whom he had enough of a relationship that he wrote her love letters while away before returning to marry her. While I had thought the book might end with Philip being killed and Charley returning to marry the widow, this is likely a more realistic ending for the time.

Them as one thinks t' most on, forgets one soonest.' (Sylvia, after finding out about Charley’s marriage.)

Two extracts relating to two desperate men on the battlefield.

Charley lying badly wounded and in grave danger of his life:-
With a great effort he brought his wandering senses back; he knew where he was now, and could weigh the chances of his life, which were but small; the unwonted tears came to his eyes as he thought of the newly-made wife in her English home, who might never know how he died thinking of her.

Philip, rescuing Charley :-
Yet the few words this man said, as he stood breathless and alone by the fainting Kinraid, fitted in well with the belief conjured up by his personal appearance. He panted out,— 'I niver thought you'd ha' kept true to her!'

At that point of great danger, the two men were thinking of two different women. Charley had quickly moved on from Sylvia, transferring his undying love to a pretty heiress from the southern counties. Sylvia had told Charley that she never wanted to see him again but she didn’t expect him to stop loving her so quickly because she thought their love was eternal. That is why it was such a shock when she heard of his marriage and then came face to face with his wife.
Sadly, I don’t think she would have been as suitable a wife for the ‘Captain,’ as his newlywed gentrified southern belle. Could you imagine Sylvia coping with entertaining the officers wives or attending naval functions, balls etc? She found it difficult enough to manage Molly. Her cutting remarks would have been nothing compared to the social snobbery of the officer’s wives.
Sylvia, that natural, impulsive, uneducated country girl, would not have thrived as the wife of Charley despite all his success. She needed a young Kester type, maybe similar to Bessie’s farmer, rather than building a castle in the air and putting Charley in it. Wouldn’t she have been much happier holding a cow’s udder rather than a champagne glass?

Philip has been condemned by his one great mistake. It seems unfair that after rescuing Charley, for Sylvia’s sake rather than his own, Philip should be blown up on a ship. He is now both physically and mentally shattered and redemption doesn’t seem possible. Sylvia’s savage words are continually in his mind and are like a cancer in his soul. Sylvia might be starting to think she has acted too rashly in condemning Philip so strongly, but the damage has been done. The combined punishment meted out to him both by Sylvia and fate now seems far too excessive. The most heartbreaking part is the loss of the love of his child.
Philip no longer has the will to seek the comfort his broken mind and body requires, which contrasts greatly with Charley who has profited tremendously from Philip’s actions, not least having his life saved. Yes, Charley was wronged when Philip failed to deliver the message, but he has brushed off the incident like he would a patch of dirt on his Captain’s uniform. Charley must be quietly congratulating himself that he didn’t get tied up with Sylvia after all.

Charlotte wrote: "Such a tragedy. No one (but Jeremiah) knows what Sylvia has been trough and what Philip has done. Charley does not know either that Sylvia was actually true to him.

Charley moved on. Philip’s lov..."

I am amused by your conclusion - men are useless! It's true that at the beginning, Sylvia and her mother did most of the work at home. At least through Philip, Sylvia has her connection to the shop - and good news that Hester finally got brought in too. You would think someone would want to marry Hester but maybe she kept turning people down.

Robin P wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "Such a tragedy. No one (but Jeremiah) knows what Sylvia has been trough and what Philip has done. Charley does not know either that Sylvia was actually true to him.

Charley move..."

Continuing on with the theme of Sylvia’s life being afflicted by two men, and she has found happiness alone. What does that say about women in this time period?

I’m not sure Charlie easily brushed off his love for Sylvia. Do we really know how long it was before he married? We only get Sylvia’s viewpoint on it, which could be a expectation that Charlie would never love again and forever mourn the loss of Sylvia.

Trev wrote: "Yes, Charley was wronged when Philip failed to deliver the message, but he has brushed off the incident like he would a patch of dirt on his Captain’s uniform. Charley must be quietly congratulating himself that he didn’t get tied up with Sylvia after all. ."

I doubt that, after waiting 3 years to return for Sylvia, that he would have moved on quickly. I haven't worked out the timeline for his finding and marrying another woman, but I can't fault anyone who finds a second love once the first one has clearly become unavailable. I am glad he was able to find love again, and with someone who, from her brief visit to try to thank Philip and her behaviour in general, seems a kind and loving young woman.

Deborah wrote: "Robin P wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "Such a tragedy. No one (but Jeremiah) knows what Sylvia has been trough and what Philip has done. Charley does not know either that Sylvia was actually true to him..."

Great minds clearly think alike!

What would the mariners/marines be-the uniform that Philip wore that won him support from passersby? Is that the same as the Navy?

Also-we do have alternate futures to contemplate-if Philip had passed on Charley's message and Charley had been rescued from the press gang and remained a whaler, he would have returned, married Sylvia, and they may have had a happy future, or he may have been killed/drowned and, after a suitable period of mourning, she may have married Philip in the end. Did Philip actually allow Charley to advance in life in the only way possible to a sailor at the time, give him a chance to use his obvious brains and bravery and good sense to make a better life for himself and for his descendants?

Frances wrote: "Trev wrote: "Yes, Charley was wronged when Philip failed to deliver the message, but he has brushed off the incident like he would a patch of dirt on his Captain’s uniform. Charley must be quietly ..."

Charley met Sylvia in the winter of 1796. He was away presumed drowned for at least a year, maybe longer. Charley married his southern heiress only months after the meeting with Sylvia and Philip in Monkshaven in the spring of 1798. Philip was saving his life not much later in May 1799 and by then he was already married. In fact she was probably the first good looking woman he met (with money) after he went back, tail between his legs, to his port in the south. Sylvia had a right to feel a bit miffed that Charley had changed his lovers allegiance in the ‘blink of an eye.’

Frances wrote: "What would the mariners/marines be-the uniform that Philip wore that won him support from passersby? Is that the same as the Navy?

The marines wore bright red, unlike the navy, which is why it was mentioned that they were easier to spot on the battlefield.

Here is an illustration of the various Royal Marines uniforms including those from the time period of the novel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform...

And this is something like the uniform Philip would have worn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform...

For more on the Royal Marines, see here:

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2016/1...

Interesting that the pay was a shilling per diem , which would make Philip’s pension half his active duty pay, which makes sense. It was also illuminating to see that RM officers were socially inferior to RN officers. That explains why Fanny Price in Mansfield Park is embarrassed by her father’s coarseness and her eagerness to secure patronage for her midshipman brother William.

As Robin and Frances mentioned,

Hospital of St Sepulchre:
probably based on the Hospital of St Cross in Winchester, founded between 1133 and 1136 by Henry de Blois, grandson of William the Conqueror. It cared for thirteen poor men and also provided food for a hundred more from the city. In 1151 it was put into the hands of the Knights Hospitallers of St John of Jerusalem. It was fully renovated in 1390 by the then Master, John de Campeden. A mid-Victorian scandal concerning the misappropriation of funds by Francis North, later Earl of Guildford, inspired Anthony Trollope's novel, The Warden (1857). Visitors to the hospital now, as when Philip arrives, are entitled to the Wayfarer's Dole, a drink of beer and some bread.

That's a footnote from the Penguin Classics edition

Bonnie wrote: "As Robin and Frances mentioned,

Hospital of St Sepulchre:
probably based on the Hospital of St Cross in Winchester, founded between 1133 and 1136 by Henry de Blois, grandson of William the Conque..."

There’s one in Oxford classics too 😀

Charley wasn't an obsessive like Philip. He was hurt by losing Sylvia, but actually he hardly knew her. Wasn't their acquaintance only a matter of days? Whereas if Sylvia died or disappeared, Philip would never marry someone else (like poor Hester). I think if Charley had married Sylvia, he would have been faithful to her. He had had time to sow wild oats and was ready to settle down.

Bill wrote: "For more on the Royal Marines, see here:

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2016/1...
..."

Thanks for that Bill. The marines have always been regarded as a crack force of tough soldiers (although maybe not so much at that time), so it’s interesting that Philip ends up with them. Even though Philip turned away from the sea when he left Monkshaven and headed inland, he eventually ended up on a ship.

Elizabeth Gaskell must have extended her research to include The Siege of Acre 1799 and Sir Sidney Smith in order to include them in her novel. Could it be the success of relieving the siege that promoted Charley to Captain? It was one of Napoleon’s few defeats and his first major one. Here are more details of the siege.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_o...

The siege started on the 20th March 1799 and lasted until the 10th May, with the Tigre anchored in the bay firing cannons at the French. Philip’s rescue of Charley was on the 7th May, so very near the end. What a shame that Philip’s heroic act was never recognised, except by Charley and his wife. It could be argued that of the most brave and foolish deeds described in the book, Philip did both of them. He definitely deserved that place at St Sepulchre.
I am thinking again about whether Philip was selfish, the answer to that question is too complex for a yes or a no.