Baker Street Irregulars discussion

Always looking for something upcoming that seems interesting in Sherlock lit and I see that in the fall there is a book coming out from MX called "Sherlock In Love - The Holmes & Adler Mysteries." It looks like its 3 or 4 novellas in one book. Years ago, there was a series of Irene Adler mysteries by Carole Nelson Douglas that were pretty good.

The Holmes/Irene stuff always gets on my nerves. I don't think ACD ever intended there to be a love between them. It's probably one of my least favorite things the fandom has taken, especially the older generation of new authors. Personally, if you follow the subtext (as us younger fans have dedicated ourselves to) there is much more of a potential romance between Holmes and Watson. Even though the ACD estate tries to block most published work of this kind, I think it would be very interesting to see the public reaction if a pastiche would follow this narrative instead.

I think MX Publishing is out of the UK and there all of the stories are in public domain so if there's still an ACD estate, it might only apply to the US. I think there was an issue with the series Enola Holmes because it was a US series.
I don't think there is anything romantic between Holmes and Watson, especially since scholars have Watson marrying at least twice, maybe three times and he talks about his experience of women on 4 continents. If anything, I think Holmes might be asexual though he does say in one case "if I should ever marry" and "if I should ever have a son".
As far as Irene, I think the Nelson Douglas books concentrate more on her as an amateur sleuth - they bring in Holmes but not as a romance.

I definitely could get on board with the Holmes asexual theory, though I have to wonder if Holmes himself (and ACD himself) never recognized the possibility (or the strong subtext) of the potential of romance between the two. It comes into play with the juxtaposition of lines in the Devil's Foot, the quote "I have never loved, Watson, but if I did and the woman I loved had met such an end, I might act even as our lawless lion-hunter has done" and the quote from the Three Garridebs, in which Watson is shot, Holmes yells "By Lord, it is as well for you. If you had killed Watson, you would not have got out of this room alive." I understand that most arguments questioning the two's sexualities are just up for interpretation, but I do like to spread the good word and consider reading between the lines a bit more than most

I don't know what people infer from the stories - I never thought of Holmes and Watson as being gay - mostly because Conan Doyle as a writer would probably be influenced by the times he lived in. It was not only socially taboo and looked down on to be gay, but it was illegal. The Cleveland Street matter and the trials of Oscar Wilde, and also reading transcripts of some of the Old Bailey trials give some idea of how gay people were regarded. Even "personating a woman" (cross dressing) was a misdemeanor, though for Holmes, a master of disguise, female costume would be nothing new to him.

As an added comment, I mention on other topics that I have been reading some of MX Publishing anthologies of new Holmes stories. There is one - forget the volume - where the stories are supposed to start out like a supernatural story but have a realistic solution. The story called "The Return of the Noble Bachelor" has a gay oriented subplot. I won't spoil by saying more but it was a really good story.

i found a radio play and holmes and irene adler met again and she out smarted holmes again!

Barbara wrote: "I don't know what people infer from the stories - I never thought of Holmes and Watson as being gay - mostly because Conan Doyle as a writer would probably be influenced by the times he lived in. I..."

That's the best irony of all! The idea that the world's greatest detective is also lowkey a criminal. The idea of being a master of disguise also works well into this! It adds a little pizzazz to the reading, and especially to the possibility of pastiches. It was definitely a turbulent time to be writing queer-coded characters, and I think that's one of the greatest defenses that we have in defense of the idea. If ACD had been writing sometime else, would the stories have reflected that? Arthur Conan Doyle himself was friends with Oscar Wilde, and in one instance defended his friend on the topic (I'm not sure of the exact wording, but he didn't condemn him because of his sexuality). Furthermore, both authors attended a dinner in which the Sign of Four and The Picture of Dorian Gray came out of. It's pretty well documented that the character of Sherlock Holmes changes after ACD met Oscar Wilde, changing in fact to reflect more of the characteristics that ACD found in Wilde (I knew of a paper that discussed this, I'll have to see if I can find it again). The general idea that Holmes changed from reclusive and strange to more of an aesthetic and bohemian man.

Barbara wrote: "As an added comment, I mention on other topics that I have been reading some of MX Publishing anthologies of new Holmes stories. There is one - forget the volume - where the stories are supposed to..."

I do love it when adaptations play along! Some more than others try to adopt the theme of homosexual subtext, notably the famous 'cup of tea' scene in The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes. Granada Holmes with Jeremy Brett also has an adaptation of Milverton which focuses on a love affair between two men (this is blackmail material) and shows the tension felt by Holmes and Watson on the subject (Especially Watson, as the man in question was also a soldier). The pastiche I referenced when talking about the ACD estate was titled My Dearest Holmes, which is actually featured on Good Reads! Which I did not know. I heard it faced a lot of criticism and didn't know it made it into publishing at all. This is good news :) this story focuses on the Final Problem, but under the assumption of a relationship between the two. Deep rumor has it, too, that the Radio version of Sherlock Holmes with Clive Merrison and Michael Williams featured a deleted love confession within one of their episodes. It's said that this scene was played at the funeral of Michael Williams, but the tape was never released and it's all fallen into rumor...

when sir roger casement was sentenced to death a petition was passed around protesting that! and then the newspapers published the black diaries of sir roger showing he was a homosexual so the small l liberals backed off..when shown this to doyle he ignored it and signed the petition... that is the kind of man he was!

There really was no relationship or mutual influence between Doyle and Wilde. They met briefly after A Study in Scarlet was published because the US editor of a magazine took them both to lunch and wanted both writers to write something for his magazine.
They were leading vastly different lives in this period and really had no connection. I think a couple writers put them together in fiction - maybe Nicholas Meyer or Giles Brandreth.
Doyle was known to take a personal interest in the acquittal of two people - George Edjali is the most famous ones, also Oscar Slater but not really in Oscar Wilde's trials.

Jolly wrote: "Barbara wrote: "As an added comment, I mention on other topics that I have been reading some of MX Publishing anthologies of new Holmes stories. There is one - forget the volume - where the stories..."

I didn't mind the homosexual subplot in the Granada "Milverton" episode - Milverton would probably blackmail a gay man. What I didn't like about any of the feature length Granada episodes was they were a mix of the Conan Doyle text, original material or a mashup between a couple stories. None of the short stories that were expanded to feature length - Noble Bachelor, called something like The Eligible Bachelor - was another bad one.

Barbara wrote: "Jolly wrote: "Barbara wrote: "As an added comment, I mention on other topics that I have been reading some of MX Publishing anthologies of new Holmes stories. There is one - forget the volume - whe..."

Ya the Granada Holmes episodes sort of went off the deep end once they moved into the Casebook. This is an interesting shift from the previous seasons, as Jeremy was a notorious stickler about being to the letter of the books. Multiple crew members attest that he carried his Sherlock Holmes book around and corrected the scripts and the actions (you can see his book in the behind the scenes pictures, too!). My favorite story associated with that was from the original brainstorming session, when they presented Jeremy with the original script and he got so upset about the inaccuracies that he flipped the table. A legend to be sure.
The thing about Milverton, and here's another speculative theory that I take great pride in, is exactly that potential of blackmail. This story in general offers a perfect insight into the innerworkings of Holmes's mind and 'innocence'. He's definitely an empathetic man, and it's not surprising that he took such a strong offensive against a blackmailer. He's more than human enough and reacts as any one of us would. However, his actions at the end are the most striking to me, and I share my suspicions with the Holmesian scholar William S Baring Gould. The way Holmes burns all of the documents in the safe, taking extra time in the office after the murder knowing full well that, as an intruder, he could be blamed for the crime, is incredibly risky. It seems to be an unnecessary risk, in fact. He's putting his own life and freedom on the line for those documents, which makes me and Gould wonder about the motivations behind that. Could Holmes have been blackmailed by Milverton as well? Is that why he chose to take drastic measures against him, and not incorporate the law? Is he protecting himself as well? Where Gould and I differ, of course, is the content of that blackmail. Gould suggests Milverton was blackmailing Holmes with 'embarrassing' love letters he had written to an unnamed woman that would have embarrassed him if the Yard had found them. I wonder if they're not more incriminating documents, love letters to a man from his past. This would definitely be worth the risk of lingering to burn everything, as such letters could get him in serious trouble with the law. I think these could have been letters with Victor Trevor, Sherlock's childhood 'friend' from the Gloria Scott. It's all speculation of course, but you have to wonder.... You can find Gould's comment in his annotated Sherlock Holmes. It's just a footnote, but I thought it was fun that our thought processes matched at least half way.

Barbara wrote: "There really was no relationship or mutual influence between Doyle and Wilde. They met briefly after A Study in Scarlet was published because the US editor of a magazine took them both to lunch and..."

Apologies for the late response, but I've sent out my own Baker Street Irregulars to do some digging for me, but to no avail. It seems as though even the fanbase of Tumblr cannot unearth the article that my main argument stems from. I guess I cannot back up my claim of influence on the character, though I do think that Oscar Wilde left an influence on ACD. Doyle himself described meeting Wilde as "a golden evening" and while they didn't sustain an in person friendship, I feel like it's hard to meet Oscar and not be completely transfixed. I know there's a plaque up to commemorate their meeting, and I would love to go visit that!! Definitely the two best authors of the age.
What I did find, however, was this article that goes more into the idea of Holmes's sexuality. They details some of Oscar Wilde (a far less conclusive argument), but also go into some more scholarly sources and some historical connotations. I'd say that it's some good speculation, another example of reading closely between the lines, though it's good to see the argument spelled out from another point of view. https://groovymutant.wordpress.com/20...

That's the article there! Their part two is linked at the bottom of the page, and runs through some of the in text citations that could be used from the text. My personal favorite, "Quick man, if you love me!" from the dying detective :)

I don't think the article was very persuasive but I think people who have made up their mind about Holmes and Watson aren't going to change it. I think people can go through the canon and find quotes to support different sides of Holmes character.
One of my favorite Holmes quotes is from the Holmes+Irene story, A Scandal in Bohemia "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.’

Barbara wrote: "I don't think the article was very persuasive but I think people who have made up their mind about Holmes and Watson aren't going to change it. I think people can go through the canon and find quot..."

That's the fun of interpretation, I suppose. What use would anything be if we took it for the face value, especially literature? I just hope that my theories, and those of likeminded people, can someday take over the pastiche and adaptation world as the dominant speculation, instead of our current trend of going in the opposite direction when interpreting Holmes's love life. I've personally seen one too many Irene x Holmes stories, without so much of a blink of opposition from the scholars and the higher ups! It would seem as though some theories are easier swallowed by the masses, even though their footing may not be as concrete

I agree about the feature length episodes based upon the short stories; they were awful. Re: the Milverton episode, Charles Augustus Milverton was influenced by a real person, Charles Augustus Howell. He was a well known "fixer". There is reason to believe that he may have influenced the character of Baron Gruner as well - Howell was a connoisseur of rare pottery.
I don't think there is any material supportive evidence of a gay relationship between Holmes and Watson. What Doyle writes is quite reflective of male friendships in the latter 19th/early 20th century.
Wilde and Doyle did meet briefly (according to Wilde's biographer, Richard Ellman) in '89 at a dinner given by JM Stoddard, an American publisher who was looking for short novels to publish and brought together the two best prospects, Doyle and Wilde - there was another gentleman at the dinner, an Irish MP. Conan Doyle wrote in his own memoirs that he enjoyed the dinner was charmed by Wilde (maybe because Wilde praised Doyle's novel Micah Clarke) There appears to be one exchange of correspondence, but Doyle states that after the dinner they did not see one another for several years, and Doyle wrote about Wilde's arrest: "I thought at the time, and still think that the monstrous development which ruined him was pathological and that a hospital, rather than a police court, was the place for its consideration."

Jolly wrote: "The Holmes/Irene stuff always gets on my nerves. I don't think ACD ever intended there to be a love between them. It's probably one of my least favorite things the fandom has taken, especially the ..."

My professional Holmes/Watson pastiche novel featuring a romance between the two was well-received, even by older, more traditional Holmes fans. Of course, the idea of a romance between Holmes and Watson was around even when Doyle was writing the canon, so it's not that outré an idea.

@ jolly said "That's the best irony of all! The idea that the world's greatest detective is also lowkey a criminal."

The thing is, I don't find the idea ironic or contradictory. Holmes was often a criminal and had no problem, as he says in the Milverton story, that it's okay to break the law if the cause is morally justifiable. He definitely breaks the law in the Adler case, but justifies it to prevent her from hurting someone else. When Holmes mentions why doctors can make good criminals it's because they have nerve and knowledge - qualities Holmes has. Holmes even gripes about how criminals all enterprise and originality in "Copper Beeches" - so Holmes does admire smart criminals and is even willing to be one himself, and if he has no real objections to criminality for a cause, there' nothing ironic in the cases where he breaks the law.
So the question is, would Holmes would break the law for a romance with Watson - because homosexual relationships were illegal in his day. I doubt it, because Watson often talks about how Holmes put down the idea of romance and love, that Holmes would find it contrary to logic and reasoning which he valued more. I don't think Holmes had romantic feelings for anyone.
because Watson said Holmes always disparaged romance and love, there would be no issue of it being "morally justifiable."

In my recent reading, I came upon a bio of a woman named Hortense Schneider, one of the most famous sopranos of the 19th century, a gifted actress and supposedly the mistress of several royals, including Edward VII. It would be odd if Conan Doyle never heard of her. Born in France - not New Jersey - but a lot of her bio just screams Irene Adler.

thank you for that information!

i checked schneider history an amazing woman

holmes once said the most inticing woman he ever met had murdered her 3 husbands...so he was attracted to certain women

I thought Holmes said the "winning woman "killed her three children? Something about wanting their insurance money. And he says the worst man he knew was a big philanthropist.
It doesn't sound like Irene was that woman - I don't see her having three kids.

it was not irene he said killed her 3 husbands he did not say her name...i could be wrong but...oh well

T.D. wrote: "My professional Holmes/Watson pastiche novel featuring a romance between the two was well-received, even by older, more traditional Holmes fans."

Oh, I loved your book!

To the topic, it's bizarre to me that some traditional Sherlockians are all "it's not on the page! it's not stated!" when it comes to some interpretations, but they're eager to ignore what Holmes and Watson themselves said when it comes to Adler and Holmes' feelings about women. We all get ideas in our heads and cling to them, regardless, I suppose. (I will resist playing amateur psychologist about why some of these, particularly older men, are so invested in their hero getting it on with a famous adventuress. :) )

fun

If you want to create a Sherlock and Irene romance you basically have to get rid of Geoffrey Norton; after all, Irene writes "I love and am loved by a better man than [the King of Bohemia]", so you have to devise some way that the man she loves and is loved by is evicted.
One of the worst Holmes/Irene setups, IMHO, was in the Dan Simmons book "The Fifth Heart". I thought the whole book was just awful.