Support for Indie Authors discussion

Hi, I'm trying to figure out how to get in touch with beta readers who would be good resources for the genera (magical realism/romance) I write in. For me friends and family are off the table, and so I am wondering if there are alternative places to go to get good feedback? I would be willing to swap reads with other authors, and I am just wondering if anyone knows of a club or group that does this? (I am new to Goodreads so I apologize in advance if this is something I should know already.) Thanks!

I had some mixed success with the site betareader.io. Groups here on Goodreads may be worth a try. In essence, anywhere potential beta readers may hang around, but it takes a while to find someone.

My beta readers were a mix of sources - some found here on GR, some on the mentioned site, some are people I follow on their blog and I did a swap when they were searching for betas of their own...

We've had a number of members seek out beta readers here in this group. There are other groups in Goodreads where you can find betas, too. Do a search and you should find some.

I've had a little success with Beta Readers Group here on Goodreads. They have paid and free groups, but I've had more luck with people in this group or people at my in-person group where I live.

There's a group on here, Goodreads, called "Beta Reader Group." It has a b&w photo of a man. I've always managed to find a few beta readers on there.

Has anyone here had emails from anyone, stating that they are a beta reader and would like to review your book? I've had a couple of them so far, and just wondered if anyone else had had the same thing?

Andrea wrote: "Has anyone here had emails from anyone, stating that they are a beta reader and would like to review your book? I've had a couple of them so far, and just wondered if anyone else had had the same t..."

Beta readers are not reviewers. I'd ignore such emails.

I will second what Dwayne said, if they are emailing you, it is a phishing campaign. Use the group on Goodreads or if you have an email list, use them. Family and friends are not good beta readers, ou want someone who doesn't know you real well to read it and give totally honest feedback. Best if you do it in a Google doc or word where they can actually put the feedback in the document. I found that going through a mobi wasn't fun to get what the person was commenting on.

Thanks everyone! All of your recommendations have been very helpful!

R.C.J. wrote: "xxx"

No links.

First: Always keep in mind that a beta reader is not used to find and point out structural problems, or things like “This section could be tightened up.” They are to give you a reader’s reaction. And as Sol Stein observed: “Readers don’t notice point-of-view errors. They simply sense that the writing is bad.”

For that reason, writers make terrible beta readers. They don’t mean to do it, but a writer will always say, in effect, “Don’t write like you, write more like me.” And if they’re a better writer that’s great. If not… So always keep that in mind as you look at their response.

But…while the advice may or may not be good, the thing that matters is that they did comment on something. Had the writing been doing its job they would not have been able to stop and comment. So, if you can figure out what knocked them out of the story, and fix it, it’s a win.

But paid first readers? That’s a scam.

Jane wrote: "Hi, I'm trying to figure out how to get in touch with beta readers who would be good resources for the genera (magical realism/romance) I write in. For me friends and family are off the table, and ..."

Hey,

I'm a translator and beta reader and I'd be happy to help proofread or beta read if you're looking for feedback. :)

xx

Jay wrote: “Readers don’t notice point-of-view errors. They simply sense that the writing is bad.”

Not always the case, I had one who was great in spotting PoV issues. Then, as far as I know, she's a voracious reader, so maybe it's because of THAT part.

I asked someone I had gotten to know a little on Goodreads to be a beta reader for me. She's a retired librarian and I could tell that she and I liked the same kinds of books. She's been my beta reader for all three books I've published. She caught some mistakes I made due to her ethnic background (which I had not realized when I asked her). A little serendipity there!

My writers' group also provides great feedback. I've made some friendships with people I've met at writers' conferences, one of whom has beta read my books (and I've reciprocated). I write historical fiction and I'm in Facebook groups covering the era I write about. I'll be trading beta readings with one of the individuals in those groups.

It takes time to develop these relationships, as well as reciprocation!

I’m in the same position, Jane. I’ve got a book to the point of needing beta reading and review. I did what Destiny suggested a few days ago - I went into the forum she mentioned and meandered through the lists until I found someone that I felt really clicked. We traded a few messages and I sent the story. Admittedly, I preferred to go with a paid reader figuring it’s fair to pay for the service since my word count is a chunky 142k. However I’m pretty sure I saw several swap options, too.

Jay wrote: "First: Always keep in mind that a beta reader is
not..."

Hi Jay,

I respectfully point out that you liberally use the word "always". :-)

I'm an author that does beta reading for other authors. I purposely DO NOT give anyone writing advice, as I know that is not what I wanted from beta readers. Communication is key. If you don't want writing advice and you know the beta reader is an author, then let them know that's not what you're looking for.

I created a Beta Reading review sheet that I use which talks about how I felt about the plot and characters, such as which one I like the most and why, which I didn't and why.

I could see how a writer might get caught in a trap of giving unsolicited advice, however, I have only given advice if the author emailed me after the beta read and asked specific questions.

The exception that proves the rule?

But seriously. Are you saying that your conclusions and recommendations aren't based on how you write? Can't see that.

Based on you you said, you're more giving a critique than a beta read.

Jennie Cruisie Reports that she removed a line where she described a pair of black panties on a yellow kitchen counter as looking like "A bat in butter." Every beta reader raved over it. But she removed it because in the end, it distracted the reader from the story. That' why we need beta readers. Analysis is critiquing.

To each his own, I guess. The best beta readers I've ever had, by far, were authors. Yes, a bit of "I would have written it this way" seeps in, but it's not a tremendous task to separate the chaff from the wheat.

Jay wrote: "The exception that proves the rule?

Well, I guess I don't believe that I'm the only exception.

I'm not pretending to be a computer program that can turn off functionality, however, I do my best to narrow responses to my emotional response to the story, not my technical ones.

In re-reading your original post, I believe that our definition of a beta reader is very much the same. The beta reader that “gives advice” is probably not what most of us are looking for. I know I wanted to know basic things:
Did you finish the book? If not, where did you give up and why?
Was there parts of the story that you had to just bulldoze to get through?
What characters did you like and not like and why?
Was there anything in the plot that you didn’t find believable?

I’m interested in your mention of critique. Do you feel that answering a couple dozen stock questions about your book is not a beta read? What type of response do you hope to get from a beta reader?

Elliot wrote: "Jay wrote: "The exception that proves the rule?

Well, I guess I don't believe that I'm the only exception."

And I don't believe "the rule". I think it's possible to beta read without interjecting "this is how I would write it". I know it happens, but I believe it can be avoided. I also believe there are readers who are smart enough to know what point of view means. Not all readers are the same, not all writers are the same.

I also believe there are readers who are smart enough to know what point of view means.

Try an experiment. Ask ten non-writers what point of view means. I think you’ll find they all talk about personal pronoun usage, because that’s what we learned in English class. In fact, most hopeful writers will say the same thing.

At workshops, I often present this example:

“Everyone knows the old truism that there are three sides to a lover’s quarrel: his side, her side, and what really happened. Our job, as writers, therefore, is to present what really happened in an interesting, and exciting way. Do you agree?”

Thus far, after many times of presenting that, not once has any of those hopeful writers disagreed. Not once has someone said, “No, we make the reader view the scene as the protagonist does, to make them empathize with the protagonist, understand their motivation, and feel as if they’re living the scene in real-time, as that character.” Not once.

The key rule to give a beta reader is, “Read till the story stops making you need to turn to the next page. Then stop. And if you can, tell me why, also where, even if it’s on page one.” If they’re analyzing as they read they’re not being a beta reader.

If you include a line, like, “Susan smiled when Jack appeared in the doorway,” will they see it as a POV break because only the author can have effect come before cause, and that when living the story Susan must notice Jack before she can smile? Will they say it’s telling where showing would have a better effect? Hell no. But the approach that resulted in the line being presented in the author’s POV will have it happening often, and reduce the reader’s enjoyment of the story in a way that’s real, but not one they’ll be able to verbalize.

The key rule to give a beta reader is, “Read till the story stops making you need to turn to the next page. Then stop. And if you can, tell me why, also where, even if it’s on page one.” If they’re analyzing as they read they’re not being a beta reader.

There are a number of reliable sources that talk about the duties of a beta reader. This is your definition, and that is fine. For you. Please remember your personal rules do not need to apply to all of us "hopeful writers". Also, again, you're assuming we've all had the same English class, a common, and flawed, argument you fall on time and time again. We haven't.

Here are some thoughts by playwright Chuck Sambuchino for Writer's Digest (Aug. 20, 2009):

"'Beta readers' is a term used for a close circle of writing friends who are the first to read your work. Well, they're not the first, techinically [sic] - because you are (you're the alpha reader). What you're aiming for is a group of other writers who write the same category and can offer thoughts on your work that is both honest and helpful.
"The reason that beta readers are important is that they help you edit your work, thereby 1) making the work better, 2) allowing you to avoid spending boatloads of dough on a freelance editor, and 3) give you a variety of perspectives on everything.
"So how do you find these beta readers? Let me tell you how I found mine. When I was finished with this recent middle grade novel (my first novel ever), I didn't know what to do. I work in a publishing house with tons of other writing pros, but the problem was: My friends here don't read MG work. So I promptly joined the local writing group for children - the (rogue) Cincinnati chapter of SCBWI. I went to some meetings and asked my one friend in the group, Nancy, who she would recommend for a manuscript swap. She made several suggestions so I contacted people and asked if they were game. Some said yes; some said no. We swapped manuscripts and set a deadline for edits (maybe one month). I got back their thoughts and edits, incorporated most of them - cause most were very good - and ignored the rest. That's how it all works."

His definition differs from others I've seen. I'm tossing it out there as an example of how we all have different ideas of what beta readers are and what to do with them. Bottom line, use what works for you and your needs. If you want the eyes of friends and family on your work, do it. If you want other writers to give you editing advice or critiques, do it. If you only want someone to tell you when they lost interest in your story, do it.

English class, a common, and flawed, argument you fall on time and time again

Again, you make a personal attack that would have you banning a user.

This is supposed to be a discussion group, remember? insulting those with differing viewpoints is counterproductive. If you disagree, say so and let the reader decide—and provide their view.

We learn nothing from people who agree with us.

I have to tell you, I had a great experience with beta readers. I found them from putting a request on beta reader groups and also from my FB. I got several people I knew and several I did not. I got some in the field that I was writing about and some very picky people. I ended up with about 28 readers. I would give them 2-4 chapters and then they had to answers questions for the next ones. It was a great experience for me. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask away.

Initially, I garnered 12 beta readers. Never again. Now I have a handful I handpicked from my two previous writing groups. If they don't come through, they haven't so far, I belong to a writers & editors guild to fall back on.
I have a standard list of what I'm looking for, but I doubt they respect it. They check everything they think is suspect.

• Now I have a handful I handpicked from my two previous writing groups

Are they beta readers or critiquing partners? Critiques are infinitely valuable. There is no questioning that. So, we need them.

But we also need the unbiased, uninformed, and bookstore-level reader—the beta reader—to get a look at the mind of our potential reader's reaction

Destiny wrote: "There's a group on here, Goodreads, called "Beta Reader Group." It has a b&w photo of a man. I've always managed to find a few beta readers on there."

Destiny, How did you decide who to send your manuscript to? Do just send it out to as many people as ask? Or do you have a specific criteria you use? Do you ever worry about anyone stealing your story idea?

Joseph wrote: "I have to tell you, I had a great experience with beta readers. I found them from putting a request on beta reader groups and also from my FB. I got several people I knew and several I did not. I g..."

I'm kinda new at this so I am curious if anyone ever worries about betas stealing their storyline? It never even occurred to me, and then a friend just sent me an article about the dangers of beta readers and I was like...?

Jane wrote: "Destiny, How did you decide who to send your manuscript to? Do just send it out to as many people as ask? Or do you have a specific criteria you use? Do you ever worry about anyone stealing your st..."

I usually check to see if the user has an active profile on here and read some of their reviews (to get an idea of what feedback they might give; to see if they're someone who is truly interested in reading).

I try not to worry too much about stealing if it's just early drafts. After feedback, stories can change drastically. Some writers like to send PDF files to deter copy-and-pasting though Word documents (you could add a watermark with your name) are ideal for line editing/comments. Using Google docs might be good for a show of proof as well. Any proof you have of your drafts and story files can be used as a poor man's copyright.

I hear more (and rarely) about beta-readers stealing work from more established indie or traditionally-published authors. A lot of beta-readers happen to be writers as well, and the majority of them want to make it big with their own work. Usually, if someone is kind enough to betaread a person's unpolished work, their intentions are okay. But being cautious is definitely good and smart!

Some writers will copyright their work or make betareaders sign a NDA. It seems a bit much though if you're just starting out

I'd like to add my two cents.
I've done some BETA reading in the BETA reading group. I don't quite agree with the notion that just because you stop reading means it's a bad story. I read all the time. I am not going to read a novel that is 200-300 pages long in one session. I have rarely read any books non-stop. Just because I put it down for a day doesn't mean its a bad story. Now If I stop reading the story and don't continue reading later, that's another thing. That means the story has lost my interest.

J. Harrison

Destiny wrote: "Jane wrote: "Destiny, How did you decide who to send your manuscript to? Do just send it out to as many people as ask? Or do you have a specific criteria you use? Do you ever worry about anyone ste..."

Destiny,
Thank you so much for your response. I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. It was SUPER helpful and I'm very grateful. Thank you!

I'm kinda new at this so I am curious if anyone ever worries about betas stealing their storyline?

Think about it, Jane. Every day, thousands of manuscripts arrive at the publishing houses. New self-published work appears, daily. And people have been writing stories for print for hundreds of years. What’re the odds that you’ve come up with a plot that thousands haven’t already used?

In reality, there are only seven basic plots, like, Overcoming the Monster, Rags to riches, etc.

But forget all that and look at yourself as you shop in a bookstore, or on a site like Amazon. When you make your decision, little of the plot is apparent. In fact, in a bookstore, studies have shown that the average reader makes a buy/don’t buy decision in three pages or less. And how much plot have they seen? Virtually none.

It’s the writing that makes a reader turn to page two, and onward, not the plot. People keep reading because they feel as if they’re living the story in real-time; because you make them care about the protagonist, and have built a gut-level need to know what will happen as a result of what the protagonist says and does. And the body of knowledge of how to make the reader feel that way is what we call the craft of the profession. It’s very unlike the report-writing skills we were given in school, because the goal of fiction is so different from the report’s goal of informing the reader:

“Good writing is supposed to evoke sensation in the reader. Not the fact that it’s raining, but the feeling of being rained upon.” ~ E. L. Doctorow

So forget plot. We need one, obviously. But things like opening a scene in a way that insures that the reader has context for what’s going on are what gets them turning from page one to page two, which is why I so often suggest devouring a few books on the methodology of the profession.

Currently looking into beta readers. I usually reach out to the Writing Community on Twitter and groups here on Goodreads.

I recently received a paid beta review on a 150k word MS from a contact I found in the Goodreads beta reader services area. It’s the first time I’ve used Goodreads for this. I’d be happy to pass on the recommendation (via direct message so as not to contravene any forum rules).
I also use a paid service suggested to me by my editor.
It can cost a bit, but I think the feedback and review is worth it.

There are some groups of beta readers on Twitter that's been a bit helpful, and I have come across some in different writing workshops. The biggest thing is to make sure that the betas would actually be interested in your genre! :)