The Sword and Laser discussion

I think anyone who has done NaNoWriMo is familiar with the prompt, "And then, ninjas/pirates/spies" to help get through writing block.

(view spoiler)[I was all in for the ghost dog and the 6th grade grandmother and the cousin dream visit but does it make sense to say I didn't see the vampires coming? (hide spoiler)]

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I think anyone who has done NaNoWriMo is familiar with the prompt, "And then, ninjas/pirates/spies" to help get through writing block.
"

Well, I haven't read the spoiler yet, but I remember that one of the most joyous moments in All the Birds in the Sky is when the author does an (view spoiler)[ and then assassins! (hide spoiler)]. Maybe joyous isn't the right word, but it just let me know that the world of the book was more chaotic/weird/fun than I had expected and I loved it. And Elatsoe just came in on hold for me at the library so now I'm really looking forward to it.

I didn’t see it coming, either, but I should have, given the hints.

Elatsoe’s world is reminiscent of many other contemporary fantasy series which have all sorts of supernatural critters running around, and I’m all for that. Usually they have one main type with the secondary ones popping in for flavor, and that was CLEARLY indicated as the case here very early on with Jay’s background but it somehow never occurred to me.

Mercy Thompson is werewolves, plus others.
Sookie Stackhouse is vampires, plus others.
Iron Druid is Celtic myth, plus others.
Supernatural is demons/angels, plus others.
Elatsoe is ghosts, plus others.

I find these sorts of stories more fun than just vampires or just zombies, although those books certainly have their place and many are great. The wider universe thing is my favorite, probably because I got into comics at such a young age.

Yeah! I was surprised because of my own assumptions, I guess, and because of recent speculative reads with indigenous authors and narrative voices. I know that people from those groups are not constrained to only writing one kind of story but my surprise shows my bias, I'd say!

Seth wrote: "Maybe joyous isn't the right word, but it just let me know that the world of the book was more chaotic/weird/fun than I had expected and I loved it. "

You might actually love Elatsoe then. I had a bit of trouble getting into it, but once the story took off it was a really fun and enjoyable ride.

Anne wrote: "You might actually love Elatsoe ..."

Yeah, I started in and got to the part in question here. I usually don't mind a story that turns out to be a little bit weirder than I expected going in.

I love the world building here, so many new things to think about and explore in this world. You have your familiar tropes (i.e. vampires), but there's just enough difference to make them new again.

The characters were also enjoyable, they felt alive to me.

But for the me, the plot was a little too "Deus Ex Machina". Whenever the characters got stuck, a friend would pop into the story, give them the answer, and then pop back out again never to be heard from again. Or Elsie would suddenly arrive at the answer without any explanation of how she got there (even if the audience has been guessing it after the first few chapters).

Plus you never felt they were in any real danger, the couple of times that she should have been in danger (view spoiler)[visiting the underworld (hide spoiler)], it wasn't explained until afterwards.

As a person who now lives in Iowa (although not an Iowan) I'm really enjoying the references to the dangers of driving through corn fields. It's a cool idea that things like invasive species and decreasing biodiversity would apply equally to the monsters and other mythic creatures.

@Eric - it's a middle grade book, so none of that is a surprise, is it?

Rick wrote: "@Eric - it's a middle grade book, so none of that is a surprise, is it?"

Is it really? The main character is 17. People probably just think she is a child because she is asexual.

I think Ellie reads as about 15. I figured she might be 17 so she can drive, but she really doesn't *need* to drive.

Her being ace feels kind of random to me.

Both those things are part of what distanced me from the book, but mostly I think it was the tone of the writing in general. Not really sure why.

Ah never mind, I was looking over the March madness books and had Kikis Delivery Service stuck in my head. Oops.

Serendi wrote: "Her being ace feels kind of random to me."
I'm all for representation but it didn't come up in a natural way. I never read romance between the characters or expected it, considering the age and danger (I personally don't need a Peeta vs. Gale storyline to enjoy my YA novels thanks!) so it just seemed thrown in like the author had forgot to mention it as regular character development. I feel like Jay said it to her at some point, "Since you're Ace, xyz..." and I was like, okay, but so?

Seth wrote: "As a person who now lives in Iowa (although not an Iowan) I'm really enjoying the references to the dangers of driving through corn fields. It's a cool idea that things like invasive species and de..."
Agreed, this was cool. Those giant fields are so unnerving if you aren't used to them... simultaneously too much open space but once you're close to it, you can't see past it.

Eric wrote: "But for the me, the plot was a little too "Deus Ex Machina". Whenever the characters got stuck, a friend would pop into the story, give them the answer, and then pop back out again never to be heard from again. Or Elsie would suddenly arrive at the answer without any explanation of how she got there (even if the audience has been guessing it after the first few chapters). ."
Or the friends' older siblings and their fiances....

As someone who grew up in Ohio and spent all of his summers on a working farm, I never saw the corn fields as menacing. Cornfields are *fun*. I’m much more Field of Dreams than Children of the Corn.

Trike wrote: "As someone who grew up in Ohio and spent all of his summers on a working farm, I never saw the corn fields as menacing. Cornfields are *fun*. I’m much more Field of Dreams than Children of the Corn."

As someone who grew up in Oregon, I was scared by the midwest. :D

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "As someone who grew up in Oregon, I was scared by the midwest. :D"

The first time my mom visited us here in New Hampshire, she said she felt claustrophobic due to all the trees. She grew up in Indiana (on the banks of the Wabash river, hence my dog’s name) and has lived in Ohio for 65 years. People talk about Kansas being flat but nowhere in America is as flat as central Ohio where trees are sparse and the tallest things around are grain silos.

This says “home” to me: https://images.app.goo.gl/whAAtAqwdx5...

So I grew up in the Northwest with mountains on the horizon and hills and trees all over. Visited Iowa for a trip and on the other side of the street from the huge corporate campus were... cornfields. FOREVER. It was disorienting and felt very off to me.

Northwest represent! On my school bus ride, I watched the sun rise over the northern part of Oregon wine country.

Trike wrote: "As someone who grew up in Ohio and spent all of his summers on a working farm, I never saw the corn fields as menacing. Cornfields are *fun*. I’m much more Field of Dreams than Children of the Corn."

We don't have massive cornfields in Tassie.

But we do have large fields of Opium Poppies though 😉

For some people this is a real Field of Dreams. Very weird dreams 😉 Probably not baseballers though 😁

Serendi wrote: "I think Ellie reads as about 15. I figured she might be 17 so she can drive, but she really doesn't *need* to drive.

Her being ace feels kind of random to me.

Both those things are part of what..."

Yeah me too. Although the characters were supposed to be late teens, a lot of their dialogue and actions put them into their early teens, 13-14ish for me.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Trike wrote: "As someone who grew up in Ohio and spent all of his summers on a working farm, I never saw the corn fields as menacing. Cornfields are *fun*. I’m much more Field of Dreams than Childr..."

I'm in the Jenny boat on this one, though I'm from Pennsylvania. I can't stand that there aren't enough trees here in Iowa to block the wind, create serious shadow, get lost, give me some privacy even - it's been ten years and it's still disconcerting.

AndrewP wrote: "Yeah me too. Although the characters were supposed to be late teens, a lot of their dialogue and actions put them into their early teens, 13-14ish for me.
."

I read this one (rather than listened) and I thought the dialogue was maybe the author's biggest weak spot. Hopefully the audiobook narrator helped, but to me the teens, the parents and even six-great speak with fairly similar vocabulary and phrasing when I read the words. I assume this is a difficult thing for an author to do, but usually at least the main characters speak in my head with a different 'voice' when I read.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Serendi wrote: "Her being ace feels kind of random to me."
I'm all for representation but it didn't come up in a natural way. I never read romance between the characters or expected it, considering..."

I think the other character saying she was ace did come across kind of bluntly, but from what I remember, the character seemed like she was the type to be a little blunt.

Being ace didn't seem completely random to me, I felt like we got hints about it throughout.

I find it really interesting that a lot of you are seeing her being an ace as random since I thought she was one early on in the book. It could be due to the fact that I'm an ace myself and noticed all of the signs.

Just one more reason I was really disappointed that I couldn't stand the writing since there is so few ace representations and I really wanted to like this book.

Julia wrote: "I find it really interesting that a lot of you are seeing her being an ace as random since I thought she was one early on in the book. It could be due to the fact that I'm an ace myself and noticed..."

Enlighten this old fellow about how you’uns are using the word “ace”.

Trike wrote: "Julia wrote: "I find it really interesting that a lot of you are seeing her being an ace as random since I thought she was one early on in the book. It could be due to the fact that I'm an ace myse..."

I will recommend this book:
Ace: What Asexuality Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex

^ Asexual.

FWIW I suspected it when Elatsoe was talking to her male friend about marriage and children and said she didn't think she would ever be interested. Or maybe I noticed that part because of the group discussion of that topic. (Now at about 1/3 of the way through.)

John (Taloni) wrote: "^ Asexual.

FWIW I suspected it when Elatsoe was talking to her male friend about marriage and children and said she didn't think she would ever be interested. Or maybe I noticed that part because ..."

It's so funny because I was reading it more from the perspective of the Gift. Often in fantasy we have people who can't hold down relationships or at least don't have it as a focus because they have a Job to Do or a Gift that Causes Harm or a Savior Complex, many of which render them as a bit nonsexual in a more nondefined way. I made the wrong assumptions, but it could have just as easily been these other reasons. I don't have strong feelings about it, just isn't where my mind went.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I will recommend this book:
Ace: What Asexuality Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex."

There's also The Invisible Orientation: An Introduction to Asexuality. It's included an audible subscription if you want to do some more investigating.

John (Taloni) wrote: "^ Asexual.

FWIW I suspected it when Elatsoe was talking to her male friend about marriage and children and said she didn't think she would ever be interested. Or maybe I noticed that part because ..."

For me it was when Jay told Elatsoe that he'd broken up with his girlfriend and she really didn't know how to relate. That's how I've felt during conversations like that, paticularly when I was younger.

Thanks. We need more asexual characters. That’s the new trend.

Here is a list from Tor.com from 2016....

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "John (Taloni) wrote: "Often in fantasy we have people who can't hold down relationships or at least don't have it as a focus because they have a Job to Do or a Gift that Causes Harm or a Savior Complex, many of which render them as a bit nonsexual in a more nondefined way.."

Funnily enough, a lot of those characters are head cannoned as aces by aces paticuly if they never end up in a relationship or if the relationship could be read as non-sexual.

There all along!

Trike wrote: "Julia wrote: "I find it really interesting that a lot of you are seeing her being an ace as random since I thought she was one early on in the book. It could be due to the fact that I'm an ace myse..."

Thanks for asking the same question I was thinking. First time I've heard the word "Ace" as reference to asexual people. I remember the point in the story when it came up and thought it was kinda blunt, but then again I didn't pick up on the cues earlier in the story. I related her indifference to Jay's break-up as typical teenager indifference.

I was confused about the term too until I read Julia's phrase about ace representation and googled that. The thing is... 'aces' is slang for 'the best' (https://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...) so I was kinda doubly confused.

Rick wrote: "I was confused about the term too until I read Julia's phrase about ace representation and googled that. The thing is... 'aces' is slang for 'the best' (https://www.urbandictionary.com/defin......"

Those meanings are not mutually exclusive.

AndrewP wrote: "Yeah me too. Although the characters were supposed to be late teens, a lot of their dialogue and actions put them into their early teens, 13-14ish for me. "

Is this because it isn’t post apocalyptic with the fate of the world in the balance. The book makes many choices that are unusual (and appreciated).

Ellie has a healthy and happy relationship with all of her family. She is fully supported by her family as well. No convenient orphaning.

Ellie is a well adjusted teen. No sturm and drang usually associated with teens. None of the conflict is between the protagonists friends only with the external forces impinging on her family.

The plethora of teen shows featuring stunningly beautiful actors in their twenties messes with our perceptions of what teens are really like. Grunting in mon syllables doesn’t make for good tele.

I definitely got a Nancy Drew vibe from the book (Veronica Mars?).

The indignities themes were deftly weaved through the narrative. Subtle touches like demanding a receipt and not noticing being watched worked well.

Definitely a. Pleasant change of pace from the YA books I have read recently.

I liked the slightly odd tone, but it took me a while to settle into it. It was like I'd expect some point to need more discussion, and instead the book was like it was so obvious let's move on, or I'd think the next step was obvious and the book would pause to consider.

These things did happen -- it would clearly be time for the intrepid kids to wander off on their own and instead they'd call their parents, or at one point the bad guy is monolog-ing and asks if he should have just let himself die and Elie replies "Yes, of course -- how is that even a question?" which is not the answer the baddie expected for that rhetorical question.

But this was happening on a subtler level as well, so the text kept bumping under me unexpectedly. I ended up enjoying it.

On the dialog: I read another YA last year (Catfishing on CatNet) and it definitely felt like the teens from both would easily talk to each other, so that might be how kids sound these days.

Iain wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Yeah me too. Although the characters were supposed to be late teens, a lot of their dialogue and actions put them into their early teens, 13-14ish for me. "

Is this because it isn’t post apocalyptic with the fate of the world in the balance."

I don't know, I'm a little closer to AndrewP on this one I think. The stakes were high enough that it could cost the lives of just about everyone involved. And (view spoiler)[ it turns out there is an organization that systematically harvests the health/lives of the poor/minorities, which is kind-of a big deal even if not the apocalypse. (hide spoiler)]

It isn't just the teens that struck me as naïve either. Elatsoe's dad decides it's OK for her to chase down a murderer by herself and just leaves town to go back to work. It seems like the attitudes of the characters, rather than the events themselves, that make this book seem lighter than it could be or should be.

Seth wrote: "Elatsoe's dad decides it's OK for her to chase down a murderer by herself and just leaves town to go back to work."

Yes, this also bugged me. It's like you can write believable adults, or believable children/teens, but it is difficult to do both. It linked in my mind to The Assassin's Apprentice, where the entire book has adults expecting the main character to behave like an adult and being constantly amazed that he acts his age. I suppose if the adults were written elsewise here there wouldn't have been a book.

"I had a dream that my cousin was murdered."
"Go back to bed, honey."
The End.

I dunno, I liked that culture. Ellie respects her parents and agrees that they have a wider understanding, and so obeys their rules and limits. Her parents respect her and know that she has a more powerful gift that she has worked and and understands.

It's odd, because it most YA it doesn't work that way -- kids sneak off and break rules without thinking about it, and parents just shut down even older teens just because they can. But it's probably closer to my relationship with my kids at that age than the usual YA.

It's not like the parents let the kid check out the spooky mansion. They were doing things like going to the library. Meanwhile the parents were busy keeping their jobs and arranging the funeral.

Maybe it’s a generational thing? The parents’ behavior didn’t bother me at all because that’s exactly how my folks acted. This new trend of being a helicopter parent, always hovering nearby, is foreign to how I and pretty much everyone of my cohort grew up. They kicked us out of the house and we went off on our own for hours every day.

Admittedly that was not always ideal, because we could get into situations that were dicey to say the least. I’ve probably told the story about how I was stabbed as a boy by an adult man who was probably on drugs but definitely sketchy, and I’m fairly confident that doesn’t happen much these days with parents keeping a close eye on their kids.

I’ve heard of parents being arrested for allowing their kids to roam their neighborhood unattended, which is such a bizarre thought to me. We’d play down by the river catching crawdads and frogs, building dams in the creek, running around trails in the woods and building treehouses, or exploring junkyards. Stupidly dangerous stuff, to be sure, but unless we were bleeding or the house was on fire, our parents didn’t care. But boy-howdy, you come home crying with a stab wound and they’d leap into action!

So I get the dad’s behavior in this book. Maybe some of that older attitude of letting kids “get into stuff” is alive and well away from mainstream America.

Trike wrote: "Maybe it’s a generational thing? The parents’ behavior didn’t bother me at all because that’s exactly how my folks acted. This new trend of being a helicopter parent, always hovering nearby, is foreign to how I and pretty much everyone of my cohort grew up. They kicked us out of the house and we went off on our own for hours every day."

Yeah, for me this was about 10 acres of woods. I had friends who lived 2 miles away if you drove it but we could meet up over the river and through the woods. My dog would run off and have adventures too sometimes. I had an enchanted forest and a secret language largely informed by a list of books I read and reread as a kid:
Bridge to Terabithia
The Secret Garden
Mandy
The Swing in the Summerhouse
The Secret Language

We had a meadow of daisies/wildflowers that my Dad would drive paths through with his tractor, and he would remove the poison oak from the trails in the woods. My sister and neighbor kids and I would play in the woods and creek, pick tiny wildflowers and fruit that grew wild (blackcaps, huckleberries, tiny wild strawberries), use "perfume" from honeysuckle, make a swing out of a giant cedar, etc. Very idyllic, tramping around and using our imaginations. Some of the trees were friends and had names.

Trike wrote: "Maybe it’s a generational thing? The parents’ behavior didn’t bother me at all because that’s exactly how my folks acted. This new trend of being a helicopter parent, always hovering nearby, is foreign to how I and pretty much everyone of my cohort grew up. They kicked us out of the house and we went off on our own for hours every day.."

Yes, exactly for me too. It just was. I have no bitter, resentful feelings about this, either, though current me is dealing with how past life filters through these new lenses of perception.

I do think often about how this affected future parents, and how this might connect with helicopter parents and/or those who judge parents who are/are not helicopter parents in today's world. I'm not a parent, so I don't know what side I would land on, or how my grandchildren would be affected since today I would be a grandparent rather than a parent of a youth.