The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

Just started this classic. Any opinions on this one?

It was one of my favorites when I read it back in high school. I've re-read it a few times since then, including a few years ago when the movie came out, and it has always held up. There are a bunch of sequels and I've read most of those but the only ones that stood out to me were Speaker for the Dead and Ender's Shadow.

awesome. those were the ones I was planning on reading, but that confirms it!

Coincidentally, I just started listening to Ender's Game Alive: The Full Cast Audioplay which is based on Ender's Game but seems to be an attempt to flesh out (and retcon) the story to some degree. It's free on Audible.

thanks for the heads up. great stuff! really enjoying Ender's game!

RJ from the LBC wrote: "Coincidentally, I just started listening to Ender's Game Alive: The Full Cast Audioplay which is based on Ender's Game but seems to be an attempt to flesh out (and retcon) the story..."

I listened to that & really liked it. OSC has a really good voice. I read the original short story & novel, too. I've liked all 3. The movie wasn't awful, either. There was some Hollywood moments, but I thought they captured it overall fairly well.

I didn't care much for the sequels except for "Ender's Shadow".
That was pretty good, but I really like Bean. Great character.

I've only read (and enjoyed) the first two. I plan to read the third, but will probably stop there.

Ender's Game is an absolute favorite of mine. Because of it, I've read almost all of Card's novels in the Enderverse. I've got his most recent release, The Hive, on hold at my library. Most of them are good, and some are very good, but Ender's Game is the standout. The movie was a complete disappointment.

ah nightmare. was looking forward to the movie when I'm finished. The novel is going great.

Ed wrote: "I've only read (and enjoyed) the first two. I plan to read the third, but will probably stop there."

I won't say that the movie was a complete disappointment but it was a pale version of the novel, mainly because the compressed timeline didn't give the support necessary to make the ending maningful. While I felt the novel was a work of adult SF even though it involved mainly children, I though the the whole age appeal of the movie was brought down to a young adult age level.

In the novel Ender thought he was dealing with a stimulation and wanted to reduce his acceptability as a leader by doing what he felt was a harsh and rash action of blowing up a whole planet and killing it's inhabitants.

He then realizes he was manipulated to think like the aliens to be able to defeat them. His superiors knew that this empathy would also prevent him from actually destroying them so he was tricked into thinking it was a test using a simulation. I don't think that this momentous event and the underlying reason he choose simulated genocide was conveyed to the audience of the movie.

There’s more to the first book that can fit easily into a single movie. Ender was engineered the old-fashioned way : his brother Peter went to battle school, did well based on skill, but washed out because of his ferocity. Ender’s sister Val never made the program because she was too timid. Ender’s parents were commanded (I think) to have a third child (Andrew/Ender) with the confidence that he’d get the brilliance of Peter and Val with a temperament somewhere between the two.

This is touched on often. Ender killed the student before battle school. He killed students in battle school. In psychotherapy programs, he murdered the giant. Ender’s great dear was to be like Peter. The simulation made genocide a surprise, but one of the things that Ender struggles with is that he might have committed genocide anyway, even had he known.

There’s also a huge story about the society in Ender’s Game. Ender is a kindergartner (6 years old) when he chooses to beat another kindergartener to death with his bare hands. The situation was partly engineered by the government, who was observing the situation and did not intervene so that they could assess how far he would go. Somewhere between 1st and 3rd grade, he murders a second boy, also with his bare hands. Also with instructors looking on and approving. By 4th grade this boy has committed genocide, in great part because his teachers kept from exposing him to any chance of a crisis of conscience.

Mankind has spent generations gearing up to the moments of the Ender’s game story, but we find out at the very end that it was completely unnecessary: the buggers had realized their awful first contact blunder and had no intention of ever coming near human space again.

In all that planning, no one from humanity tried to radio the buggers to discuss terms or negotiate. Not a message to send threats and give the buggers a chance to reply: “very sorry. We screwed up. Won’t happen again.”

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Coincidentally, I just started listening to Ender's Game Alive: The Full Cast Audioplay which is based on Ender's Game but seems to be an attempt to flesh out (and retcon) the story..."

Was super excited when I read this, went to Audible, annnnd....it is $19 bucks. Bummer. --Jen from Quebec :0(

James wrote: "There’s more to the first book that can fit easily into a single movie. Ender was engineered the old-fashioned way : his brother Peter went to battle school, did well based on skill, but washed out..."

Good analysis. I read the book quite a few years ago and I didn't remember thinking that Ender felt he might have committed genocide anyway, even had he known. I tried to look at an online copy to skim through the ending but there's much more to it than I had remembered from my earlier reading.

I actually got a slightly more negative feeling that Ender (view spoiler)[ wasn't as upset as I originally thought based on the his writing "Speaker For the Dead". Apparently he was somewhat coerced into doing that by the Hive Queen planting info and suggestions in his head. (hide spoiler)]

Jim wrote: "Ed wrote: "I've only read (and enjoyed) the first two. I plan to read the third, but will probably stop there."

I won't say that the movie was a complete disappointment but it was a pale version o..."

Jim, you might want to spoiler tag the last couple paragraphs in your post. Dave is still reading the novel.

Jen from Quebec :0) wrote: "Was super excited when I read this, went to Audible, annnnd....it is $19 bucks. Bummer. --Jen from Quebec :0(..."

Sorry. Free with Audible membership is what I probably should have said. You could always sign up for the trial membership and quit later?

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Jim wrote: "Ed wrote: "I've only read (and enjoyed) the first two. I plan to read the third, but will probably stop there."

I won't say that the movie was a complete disappointment but it was a pa..."
I don't know how to do that. I'll try to look it up.

Jim wrote: "RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Jim wrote: "Ed wrote: "I've only read (and enjoyed) the first two. I plan to read the third, but will probably stop there."

I won't say that the movie was a complete ..."

I figured it out and added the spoiler alert.

I agree, the movie was entertaining but left out the deeper story behind everything. Isn’t that the case for most books, at least those that carry meaning beyond the surface events?

While Ender’s Game was stellar, it’s almost rivaled by Speaker for the Dead. Beyond that, the rest of the Ender series turns a bit repetitive, decent reads but not carrying the weight of the first two. I liken it to Raymond Feist’s Magician series. The first quarter is spectacular, but then there’s trilogies and quartets following that are entertaining but just run on and on.

Allan wrote: "I agree, the movie was entertaining but left out the deeper story behind everything. Isn’t that the case for most books, at least those that carry meaning beyond the surface events?

While Ender’s ..."

I also liked Speaker For the Dead very much and agree that things dropped off in later books. What I found so interesting at the time was what a different direction Speaker of the Dead took from Ender's Game. I should have been a little forewarned by the ending of Ender's Game but was still surprised.

I'm really looking forward to Speaker for the Dead

Jim wrote: "Allan wrote: "I agree, the movie was entertaining but left out the deeper story behind everything. Isn’t that the case for most books, at least those that carry meaning beyond the surface events?

..."
I read them many years ago and since I wasn't that happy with the movie it may be time to revisit the novels. Especially since James had some interesting insights in messages 11 and 12 about the ending of Ender's Game.

Card actually wrote Ender's Game just so he could publish Speaker for the Dead.

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Card actually wrote Ender's Game just so he could publish Speaker for the Dead."

I'm not sure if you mean this as a serious statement. Did you see a quote somewhere that Card actually said this?

I think Card did indeed say something like that. "Speaker" was the book idea he initially planned to write. "Game" was written as a back-story for it.

Apparently Card said that in an introduction for the 1991 Tor version of "Ender's Game", according to wikipedia.

Also interesting, it says EG was the first novel published entirely online before in print. (Somehow I suspect there is probably some other obscure little book that was the real first novel published on the internet.)

Totally true that Speaker for the Dead is not the direction you’d expect by reading Ender’s Game, but then he comes back to that direction later. Speaker is really great though, arguably better.

Online publishing seems like the modern version of publishing novels in serial versions in the ‘zines back in the 50’s and 60’s. I thought of that because we are about to read Heinlein’s Glory Road in the Hugo/Nebula group, and I have it in the original form, printed in three parts in F&SF in 1963. My dad was a subscriber and I salvaged about a hundred issues running from the mid-50’s to the early 60’s.

I immediately added a lot of Card to my TBR after reading Ender's Game, but never came to reading it. I'm very curious for Speaker for the Dead now. Maybe we can nominate it for a month's read.

I really like a lot of OSC's writing. In an intro or afterword, he wrote that he always reads his stories aloud to see how the words flow. If they are awkward, he rewrites. This is quite noticeable in the audiobook versions. Quite often, I can read a book & forgive repetition & other irksome bits since I can skim. Can't do that in audio. Treason is one of my favorite books & I'd read it several times in PB before finding a copy narrated by Stefan Rudnicki at my library. It was even better in that format.

My wife & I were both really tickled by Ender's Game & Treason, so we dove into his "Red Prophet" books. We liked the first one, but they lost their appeal quickly.

I tend to either really like his work or hate it. His 'Empire' duology was good & I really enjoyed most of his short stories. I didn't care for Invasive Procedures or his Laddertop series at all.

Ed wrote: "Apparently Card said that in an introduction for the 1991 Tor version of "Ender's Game", according to wikipedia.

Also interesting, it says EG was the first novel published entirely online before i..."
Thanks, I found the reference on Wikipedia.

"Card stated that Ender's Game was written specifically to establish the character of Ender for his role of the Speaker in Speaker for the Dead, the outline for which he had written before novelizing Ender's Game."

Jim wrote: "RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Card actually wrote Ender's Game just so he could publish Speaker for the Dead."

I'm not sure if you mean this as a serious statement. Did you see a quote somewhere t..."

Yeah, I was serious. I have always found that bizarre. I love Ender's Game - even listening to the Full Cast recording (which I don't like as much due to some revisions and the obvious difficulties of trying to tell a story through only dialogue and using a whole ton of exposition) brings back memories of the parts I'd forgotten. I don't love Speaker - I like it a lot and respect it but it doesn't inspire the same feelings that Ender's Game does.

I finished the audiobook Ender's Game Alive: The Full Cast Audioplay and wanted to share my thoughts.

Ender's Game is one of my all-time favorite books. I've read it several times. I'm aware of the criticisms of parts of the story and based on listening to this audiobook it sounds like author Orson Scott Card is also aware of the criticisms. I won't go into those here - you can Google search them if you're interested - but I will say that although some interesting points have been made I haven't read any critiques that made me like the original book any less.

I bring all this up because the Full Cast Recording starts off with an extended and "enhanced" opening segment that changes the story in some unfortunate ways. I don't want to get into it too much for spoiler reasons but the net effect is to reduce the responsibility born by Ender and his parents for some of the early happenings in the story. I didn't enjoy this part and almost turned it off. Making it all even worse, there's a TON of droning exposition to establish the characters and the setting.

Fortunately, everything improves once we reach Battle School, which was probably the most fun part of the novel. At this point the story is fairly faithful to the original novel, although there are still changes made to accommodate the fact that the story is told almost completely through dialogue. Some of the scenes that are chilling in the book are a bit overdramatic through the emoting of the voice actors. By the way, Harlan Ellison is one of the voice actors, but I haven't figured out who he plays - I just don't know his voice enough to tell and I haven't been able to find that information online.

The ending seems rushed, although again this is due at least somewhat to the format of using dialogue to tell the story. I was disappointed that one of the biggest surprises in the story was telegraphed a little too much in the audio recording. Also, material from some of the other books and stories was woven into this production which seems to confuse things a bit.

I would recommend this only to those who have at least read the first Ender's Game novel already. I don't think it's an ideal way to experience the story for the first time.

I read Ender's Game for the first time earlier this year...I'm not sure how I've went all these years without actually reading it. But, stuck at home with this pandemic has really allowed me to catch up on reading. I thought the book it was awesome. Now I might move onto the movie.