SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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New GR book page
I use the book pages to see which of my friends have shelved or reviewed a book, and how they've shelved it, but now I can't see the shelvings, and can only see a few reviews then have to click more & more & more to see all of them. They are truncated to uselessness, AND they blend into the community reviews. Very bad design, but hey, the author info is now front and center, recommendations, and buy links are prominently placed. My Chrome library add-on that tells me my library availability doesn't work now, and honestly every single thing I can think of has been made worse or less useful.
I don't think that GR is going the way of Shelfari, but I do think that they are trying to make the site more app-like and aesthetically appealing for mobile, but ruining the usefulness of the pages and community/friend features as they do so.
If you are using Library Extension they just updated it so it works again on the goodreads new pages. It should be version 2021.427.1
No, I'm using Available Reads. It still works on my shelves, so I'll just use it there.
Mod
My thoughts on this are: As a usability professional, I have to say, usability of this page from a community-building standpoint is horrible. Since amazon has enough money to hire good professionals, I have to assume it's intentional. Amazon wants to minimize the community aspect of goodreads and maximize the marketing and selling aspect.
But I am not surprised, I mean I knew that as soon as I heard they had bought goodreads, and I honestly think nobody who knows goodreads belongs to amazon should be surprised. I mean, there is a reason why monthly book of this group are often on sale on amazon before we read them: It's an automated algorithm and this group is large enough to make it useful for amazon.
Community management and moderation is hard and expensive and it doesn't bring in money, marketing and selling does. People who write professional reviews and have a large following, authors or publishers who pay for their books being featured in recommendations etc., buying books off amazon directly on the goodreads page and so on.
Of course they are doing it.
That being said, I am not particularly tied to goodreads. There are other pages and yes, I know, the community etc., but it just takes some people to start.
I sent them one of the feedback emails with suggestions. My overall feedback was "I think I understand what you are trying to do here, make it more visually appealing -- but please shrink the whitespace and the image size to make room for more actual information! That got me to thinking about what I use that page for, sort of ranked by how often I use/check for them:
-awards
-year of publication
-pages
-my shelves
-Series info (click through to series list)
-Readers Also Enjoyed similar books...
-Friends' rating average
-Friends' ratings
-Friends' reviews
-Following's ratings
-Following's reviews
-Community reviews
-Filter community reviews by # star ratings
-Friends' activity / comments / shelves
-Following's activity / comments / shelves
-My activity/rating/shelves (usually I launch this from the "My Books" page, not the book page)
-Books by this author (often click through to author page)
-About This author (often click through to author page)
-Discuss this book
-Goodreads rating
-Quotes from this book... click through to see all quotes.
-Recommend It
Things I occasionally do when I notice them on the page, but I don't think of them until I see them:
-Lists With This Book
-Stats
-Genres
-Get A Copy ( i have personalized the library links)
-Reader Q&A
-Articles featuring this book
I agree that it's awful, but the "send feedback" thingy doesn't work for me so I guess they won't get my feedback. I wish they'd just leave it the way it is, and maybe change the layout only for mobile app users at most.
Eva wrote: "I agree that it's awful, but the "send feedback" thingy doesn't work for me so I guess they won't get my feedback. I wish they'd just leave it the way it is, and maybe change the layout only for mo..."Use this email address: gr-book-beta-feedback at goodreads dot com
Nope, we don't have the Amazon/Kindle buttons.edit: Well, we do have a button that says Amazon, but it's not the large one with the price like I see when I'm not logged in.
edit2: I haven't seen the beta book page's US version, so I don't know how that looks. And I've blocked a lot of the one I have from memory, trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
Mod
Anna wrote: "I haven't seen the beta book page's US version, so I don't know how that looks. And I've blocked a lot of the one I have from memory, trying to pretend it doesn't exist."I didn't realize that there were different regional pages. I screenshotted the one I see in the US (under the spoiler tag so as to not overwhelm the thread), with Annoyance Commentary(tm). Ugh... Going through and pulling all of this made me realize that it's even worse than I thought.
(view spoiler)
Ugh, I'm getting an anxiety spike just seeing the screenshots.
Becky wrote: "And it doesn't show the average rating among my friends any longer. I used this SO MUCH. If my friends on average disliked a book, I won't bother with it."I certainly noticed that when I tested the Beta, it is one of my most-used and valuable pieces of info on Goodreads. Of course I assumed they are not running it through a calculating/database yet because that would be crazy to not include that?!
Also, what are you saying about "shelving"? It will be harder to get to / see? I mean, they would not get rid of it. would they? Existing users would blow a gasket.
Bonnie wrote: "Existing users would blow a gasket."The number of gaskets blown re: previous "improvements" hasn't changed GR's mind about anything, so don't hold your breath.
No, I'm not still mad about the homepage?!?!?
Ines wrote: "That being said, I am not particularly tied to goodreads. There are other pages and yes, I know, the community etc., but it just takes some people to start."Make it good. Then once it gets good enough, Amazon will buy it, just like they did IMDb.org and Goodreads.
{cheerfully} 'cause that's how they roll! 😂
I don't mind if they make huge "Buy on AZ or..." buttons, I suppose they do want to pull in a little more cashola. As long as they keep the Useful and Good Stuff too!
Bonnie wrote: "Also, what are you saying about "shelving"? It will be harder to get to / see? I mean, they would not get rid of it. would they? Existing users would blow a gasket.."Yeah, that's what I mean. I can entirely understand why they wouldn't want shelvings without ratings/reviews to be visible, especially after the cluster-eff policy change regarding reviews that were "about the author, and not the book". (IE: if an author was harassing people, and you mentioned that in the review space to warn others, that would and still likely does get your review deleted.) As a workaround, people started shelving the books "not for me" or "Nope" or similar "not gonna read this" type shelves... and my guess is that authors have complained that this is turning people off of their books, and Goodreads has decided to nix users ability to see that on the book page. Gotta make the authors happy.
I have nothing against authors in general, but this is supposedly a site for READERS, and yet so many of the functions that READERS use is getting the axe because negative shelving inhibits sales.
Anna wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "Existing users would blow a gasket."The number of gaskets blown re: previous "improvements" hasn't changed GR's mind about anything, so don't hold your breath.
No, I'm not still mad about the homepage?!?!?"
Same. That's why I've given them feedback, but I know that it won't matter, and I'm just gonna have to adapt or leave.
This was about the homepage (and series page) update, but the second part applies to all GR "improvements".OK, I'm getting way too angry, better stay out of this thread and pretend all is fine.
Anna wrote: "And I've blocked a lot of the one I have from memory, trying to pretend it doesn't exist."I will look at the Beta page again this week and send feeback. Then will adopt Anna's strategy.
Some updates... Goodreads actually responded to my initial feedback email saying "The page is a work in progress and we appreciate your email. Just wanted to let you know that we know how important friend activity is, and we're working on bringing that into the new page soon."Uh huh. I'm sure they regret replying to me. I was not very gentle in my reply, though I did tone it down from the original version in the end... in the spirit of "this person isn't the decision-maker, but I'm not going to hide my displeasure". #Sorrynotsorry
So, here are some things I've determined since yesterday:
- Top shelves has gone away in the beta. GR is using our crowdsourced shelvings to create "genres", but then has decided that mass shelving data (as seen here: https://www.goodreads.com/work/shelve...) is not to be visible/accessible from the bookpage anymore. I believe that if one knows that URL and the book ID, it could still be adjusted and used to get to the shelves page, but, you know... that's a pain in the ass just to see shelvings. And that's IF they don't remove that page entirely from being visible since it's no longer linked from anywhere or "necessary".
This is more evidence for the burying/removal of visible book shelvings (can't let all those "not-interested" shelves impact sales!) but it's also a problem for book eligibility validation for groups and challenges like is done here - like if a lot of people have shelved something as "non-binary" but not enough to make it a "genre", so it would be very difficult to validate whether a book qualifies for a challenge like the Amazin' 8s unless you've already read it.
- The "missing" review issue I mentioned yesterday is actually a "feature" of the new bookpage. This is apparently the new way that we are to do edition specific reviews, or review a different edition re-read, etc, because they removed the "Review X Edition" link. Because I wasn't looking at the edition I had actually reviewed, the review and star rating doesn't show, so it's like I never reviewed it at all. (Not sure why a random selection of shelves sometimes does, but whatever.)
The problem, of course, is that there's nothing indicating the book has EVER been reviewed (and "read" is not sufficient, as that's a shelving, and not a review), so it will likely cause lots of people a lot of confusion if they think that their review has been deleted, or never posted, or went missing, etc. So, I foresee a lot of frustration from people who then have to rewrite reviews, and/or flock to GR Help to report the issue of their "missing" review, etc.
- These links are just gone:
Stats (https://www.goodreads.com/book/stats?...)
Recent Status Updates (https://www.goodreads.com/user_status...)
Recommend It (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...).
- The beta bookpage doesn't show reading progress, shelving updates, or status updates. User shelving updates and status updates currently also exist on the My Review page, but... I'm not sure if they will change to be edition specific (they aren't currently)...
But it's also not possible to get to the Review page until you've written (or at least POSTED) a "review" in the new version. Today, I can view the review page by clicking on "My Activity" from the bookpage, which takes me to the review page, but not the "edit review" page. That no longer works in the beta version, and you must go through the edit review process to get to the same Review page. Click "Write a review" (which isn't what I want to do) and then... Post a nothing review. Then I get to see the Review page.
- Friend reviews/ratings show now in some random order, instead of being prioritized according to Text review (likes high to low), then Ratings. Shelvings without ratings/reviews aren't visible at all in Beta.
- "Other Editions" is hidden under the "more info" section, which explains why I wasn't able to find it even after the search reported there was one. I have been keeping that section minimized just to reduce the amount of scrolling necessary, because this page is insanely huge now.
Sorry for the wall-o-text. TL;DR version: They are doing away with a hell of a lot of useful functionality, and changing site behavior that's been in place since Goodreads launched, and it's not at all clear or intuitive and will undoubtedly cause a whole lot of confusion and aggravation... which they'll ignore until either the complaints or the users go away.
Yay! Here's a fun thing (bug??) I literally just discovered... If you have reviewed multiple editions, the datestamp (the link to the "My Review" page in the beta) links to the first review ever posted on that book. NOT the review of that edition.
Here's two examples, for books that I have read and review multiple times (don't judge me! lol). The Beta, regardless of edition, links to the same review, despite what is actually showing on the bookpage, whereas the current bookpage links to the ACTUAL review of that edition:
The Shining
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
Beta: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Current: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
B: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
C: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...
B: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
C: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
B: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
C: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
IT
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8...
B: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
C: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
B: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
C: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6...
B: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
C: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8...
B: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
C: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Every single time I think it can't get worse... I'm wrong. Off to email the lovely folks on the Goodreads Bookpage team again.
Mod
I got another reply from GR assuring me that the page is a "work in progress" and all of the features I miss are "actively being built" and that feedback "helps them prioritize". Sure. And I'm Queen of Mars.
I know that when I design development projects in my day job, it's ALWAYS recommended for the developers to give a beta/test version that contains none of the actual functionality the end product will deliver, with no explanation or context. "Here it is! Test it out!"
"Oh, none of what you expected, need, or want is there? We're still figuring it out. If you complain ENOUGH, or get enough people to complain about the stuff we decided you don't need, maybe we'll add it. Partially."
Sometimes I wonder if Goodreads is actually a large social experiment testing how loyal a userbase is. "How much will they put up with losing before they bail? What is it that keeps them here? Let's find out!"
Yes, and also testers aren't looking for things that don't work or need improvement, their only function is to tell you your crappy work looks pretty. I will never forget how they claimed that 98% (I don't remember what the actual % was, but it was high) of all the people testing the new homepage loved it. Either they were asking people who'd never used Goodreads for a single second, or they were flat out lying. I want to believe they wouldn't lie, so it had to be a case of "hey random stranger on the street, here's a screenshot of our new site, do you think it looks cute?"Also the new series page. RAGE! So much rage. I can't fucking believe they're choosing to mutilate what they call the DESKTOP version, to make it look prettier on phones, when they should be focusing on fixing the app, which is supposed to be designed to be used on phones.
Breathe. Breathe. Breathe. Get out of this thread.
edit: I understand why they want to make it prettier. I have nothing against making cosmetic changes, but I hate that we always lose functionality because of it. I can easily add to my million lines of CSS fixes to combat any ridiculous visual crap they throw at us, but I can't add key functions when they remove them.
It's not a beta, the series page was changed ... a couple of years ago now I think?
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Anna wrote: "Yes, and also testers aren't looking for things that don't work or need improvement, their only function is to tell you your crappy work looks pretty. I will never forget how they claimed that 98% (I don't remember what the actual % was, but it was high) of all the people testing the new homepage loved it. Either they were asking people who'd never used Goodreads for a single second, or they were flat out lying. I want to believe they wouldn't lie, so it had to be a case of "hey random stranger on the street, here's a screenshot of our new site, do you think it looks cute?""That depends on the nature of the testing that they want done. If their goal was actually usable functionality, they would ensure that functionality was testable when they made the beta version available... but your point is still valid.
They absolutely did rely on "new user" feedback, those coming from sites like Shelfari where they were used to more colorful and pretty displays... and the users who were like "OMG GR looks so BORING" won the day. The users (like me) who don't care what it looks like, but definitely CARE WHAT IT DOES lose every time.
Back to the Beta... The limited users who are even able to see the beta and try it out aren't given any information about the changes, they aren't given a list of "enhancements" or what the goal of the change is supposed to be... they are relying on users to catch what's important to them and report it missing. Statistically, if I'm the only one who is like "I need the Friend Average Rating!" they will not gauge my need as important, and adios to that feature. Even if everyone wants something back, they'll decide based on business decision, like how much the perceived "negativity" of shelvings impacts sales. They can and will likely argue that crowdsourcing shelvings for genres is enough, and there's no need to see all of the user-created shelves for a book... if we want to see user shelves, we can go to the user's profile for that.
I'm convinced (and will never be persuaded otherwise) that they removed the GR Feedback group because they wanted to remove all public negative reaction to the very unpopular changes being made. Now, there's the "help" page, where you can ask questions, and as soon as it's answered, the thread is locked. They dissuade any "feedback" there and refer it all to email or the "contact us" link - both private, and you can't even view question threads except in the general search results. I was a heavy Feedback user, and was invited to be a "Goodreads Community Ambassador" for the new "Help" page, but I had concerns about the new version and what would be expected of me, which were never addressed, and it turns out that the gig apparently ended up being GR Community Shill. No thanks.
Becky wrote: "The users (like me) who don't care what it looks like, but definitely CARE WHAT IT DOES lose every time."Exactly. That's why I keep telling them I don't mind if they want to make it prettier, that's understandable, but it can't be at the expense of functionality.
Becky wrote: "I'm convinced (and will never be persuaded otherwise) that they removed the GR Feedback group because they wanted to remove all public negative reaction to the very unpopular changes being made."
Yes, another thing that still makes me ragey. I think I've used "Help" like three times since it launched, and it's always absolutely useless. Feedback group was great. I still rely on the FGPS group for info about bugs, etc. (I think they're closed to new members.)
Anna wrote: "Exactly. That's why I keep telling them I don't mind if they want to make it prettier, that's understandable, but it can't be at the expense of functionality."Agreed. Might as well be shouting into the wind though.
Anna wrote: "Exactly. That's why I keep telling them I don't mind if they want to make it prettier, that's understandable, but it can't be at the expense of functionality."One of the many complaints I have made is that it isn't even pretty. Huge areas of white space and words in giant print don't make anything look better.
Mod
Also, because of professional honour I have to add, it is absolutely possible to make a piece of software look good and modern AND make it usable for different target groups. You just have to... well, want to. And maybe we are not one of the target groups.
I don't think it's pretty either, but that's subjective, so if they think they're making it prettier, who am I to judge. And again, I can combat the gigantic images/fonts and other CSS stuff, but I can't restore functionality that's been taken away.(I'm not doing a very good job staying out of this thread.)
How does one see this beta page? Is it the desktop version? (I'm accessing goodreads via Kindle, which is why I'm asking.) There's so much controversy that my interest is piqued, and I want to see the changes everyone is referring to!
There's a link at the top of the book page, on the desktop version, but not everyone has it.
I wonder if the link works even if it's not visible to you on the page: https://www.goodreads.com/beta/opt_in...I don't know if it would work on the Kindle though...
I tried it with the mod account, doesn't work.
I checked on the desktop, and I don't have it.
They're rolling it out one subset of users at a time, like they often (always?) do with new stuff.(And I know for sure that everyone doesn't have it yet because I also use the mod account, and it's not there.)
lori wrote: "Possibly dumb question, how did you know not everyone has it?"That's not a dumb question, Lori. It's common practice (both in GR and in general, in my experience) for test/beta versions to only be available to a subset of people, probably so that the volume of feedback isn't completely overwhelming. Even when the GR Feedback group was still active, not everyone would be included in beta testing, but everyone (who was a member of the group, or cared to join) could chime in/add to feedback around it. AND they would have a heads up that changes were on the way, and not be completely blindsided by huge changes.
Well if that's the case, I hope that all of you in the Special Subset are putting your two cents in for the rest of us peons!!
Michelle wrote: "Well if that's the case, I hope that all of you in the Special Subset are putting your two cents in for the rest of us peons!!"Believe me, I am! :)
After having read this thread, I think removing the numbered genre lists is silly as heck. That's always been useful! And Lori, did you mean that they inserted fellow author plugs and praise in a listing before a given friend's review shows up? If that's what you were describing, that's messed up.
And furthermore! I have come to rely on shelving. That was one of the biggest charms Goodreads offered.
lori wrote: "Michelle wrote: "And furthermore! I have come to rely on shelving. That was one of the biggest charms Goodreads offered."Do you mean shelving as in adding your own tags, seeing your own tags, or ..."
No, I had meant that I rely on seeing the ways users have shelved books. On my kindle, I have an extreme number of customized shelves- or Collections as kindle calls them- but I haven't gotten around to doing this in Goodreads. But hypocrite that I am, I look at other people's shelving on a given book listing.
Just to clarify, I think they are likely to say that "user shelves" are still visible - meaning that we would need to look at the shelvings on every review/rating individually. I think we'd need to be clear that genre-style top shelves is still useful and should remain visible.
I have exactly those same complaints (and more). LOL Here's the link to the screenshot I took of the "Shelved by" section of another book. It shows a couple names (2 or 3) plus however many additional friends have shelved the book, but it's not clickable, expandable, viewable or anything. And since only ratings and reviews show in the Friend Reviews section now, it's just a mystery to who they are and how they shelved the book.
https://images.gr-assets.com/photos/1...
And I don't mind my inclusion in your screenshots a bit, Lori. :) No worries!
Mod
I'm just so thrilled by all of your analytical skills and your consent-based communication! This is why GR is so hard to leave, even when they try to make everything terrible!
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I'll have to find workarounds. I've already started figuring and of them out because I don't think I'll be using the book pages much after they roll out their "improvements".
Goodreads is staying on trend - taking a useful part of the site and making it visually more appealing (if you're into that) but functionally worthless.