The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

The book begins with a philosophical discussion, of sorts, in a student's chamber at Cambridge.
The time is the early 20th century-Edward Prince of Wales is still waiting to become Edward VII.

Characters:
Rickie- our protagonist, an orphan
Ansell - his closest friend, with a loving family
The Pembrokes - Herbert and Agnes, who are siblings
The Silts - Rickie's closest relatives, in name only
Gerald - Agnes' fiance, soldier and bully

What are your first impressions of the characters?
Which do you find sympathetic? Do you dislike any?
What do we learn about Rickie's past?

Plot:
Rickie spends his Christmas holidays with Ansell, then the Silts, then the Pembrokes.
At Sawston, home of the Pembrokes, he tours Sawston school, Herbert's place of work.

Which visit does Rickie enjoy the most?
How would you describe Pembroke's work and attitude to Sawston School and life in general?
Why is a long engagement necessary, and painful for Agnes and Gerald?

Shocking event- Gerald dies in an accident!
Rickie consoles Agnes on her loss.

What will happen next? Will Rickie choose a career?
Two years pass and we find out!

Forster's kind of like James, in that in he tends to go off into metaphor, and therefore it's not always clear what's happening.

Rickie is an interesting person, and Forster allows us to see through Rickie's eyes, and the way his imagination puts his own spin on things.

Yes, Gerald's death was pretty abrupt (as it likewise must have been to the other characters!), and I still don't understand exactly how a football injury could have killed him, especially since his face seemed to be unchanged, so I suppose it wasn't a head injury. Maybe some of his internal organs were crushed? He wasn't a likeable character, but according to Rickie's interpretation, he gave Agnes pleasure. But maybe he wouldn't have made her happy in the long term.

Looking forward to see what happens! I also enjoyed meeting Ansell's family.

Gerald may have damaged his spinal chord, since he wasn't able to see Agnes when he was dying.

Rosemarie wrote: "Gerald may have damaged his spinal chord, since he wasn't able to see Agnes when he was dying."

Oh, good point.

Evidently Rickie and Agnes are together now, but it's unclear how exactly it happened. Interesting how Forster glosses over the "declarations" that must have happened when so many other authors would milk that scene. I'm still wondering whether the technique was effective. Is it so important for the reader to see the details, or is the result enough? But then, since it happened so early in the story, I suppose the "result" of the encounter is what he's going to spend time on, and the details of how it happened are less important to the story. We get another glimpse of Rickie's "eccentricity" compared to other young men his age: he's not jealous at all of Gerald and the intimacy he and Agnes shared (or if he is, it's very, very repressed), and he wants Agnes to remember her first love.

The narrator also gives us a glimpse into the future saying that Rickie made a big mistake in marrying Agnes.
Both Agnes and Herbert are domineering, especially Herbert, since he's much older. Rickie is such a timid fellow, he doesn't stand a chance in the real world.
Rickie is rich, so I think that may be another reason Agnes decided to marry him. I don't think he had much say in the matter, since his head is in the clouds most of the time.

The first sentence of Chapter V was such a shock! I wondered first if it was metaphorical. It was a jolt, after leisurely discussions of philosophy, description of the school, etc. It's interesting that the accident is just presented after the fact, instead of showing us the game and what happened. Rickie seemed to think that Agnes and Gerald didn't really love each other but then he saw them kiss. Maybe it was largely physical attraction.

It sort of makes sense that Agnes would turn to Rickie, who is a comfortable figure from her past and totally different from Gerald.

I’m having a bit of a hard time following this book. He’s just all over the place with abrupt transitions that leave me shaking my head.

I find Ansell annoying and somewhat self centered. I haven’t made my mind up yet about Agnes. And I find Ricky not to be believable. I’m hoping all of it starts making more sense to me.

There are some abrupt transitions, and other episodes are shown in great detail.
I thought it interesting that Gerald told Agnes that he used to bully Rickie-and she didn't see anything wrong with it-in fact, she was impressed!

Rosemarie wrote: "There are some abrupt transitions, and other episodes are shown in great detail.
I thought it interesting that Gerald told Agnes that he used to bully Rickie-and she didn't see anything wrong with ..."

I agree that was odd. Yet I feel like the characters are flat and I don’t really know them.

Lori wrote: "Forster's kind of like James, in that in he tends to go off into metaphor, and therefore it's not always clear what's happening..."

Deborah wrote: "I’m having a bit of a hard time following this book. He’s just all over the place with abrupt transitions that leave me shaking my head."

I associate James and Forster together as two well-thought-of authors that are not always smooth reads, yet I read them anyway. Funny that I'm reading both at this time. Forster is the easier read to me, but I'm not always taken with his style. I also find D.H. Lawrence to be a similar type author for me.

I too find this book's events and transitions to be a bit random, but I anticipated it to be as this is an autobiographical bildungsroman. Forster is concerned about the protagonist's feelings during events that may not form much of a plot, but serve to show a growth or change in the protagonist over time. I presume this is why this novel is Forster's own favorite of his novels but apparently no one else's.

I'm reading this novel because I've read 4 Forster novels and if I read this and Maurice, which Rosemarie enjoyed, I will have read all his novels and The Machine Stops So I entered this read having low expectations for this story. Despite the storytelling deficiencies, I'm finding this Forster to be very readable and a reasonably pleasant read.
I do agree that Gerald's death deserved a clearer explanation than the 'spare the details' approach taken, While Forster is making the details unimportant to empathize the spoken words and feelings it may have the opposite effect as, since people rarely die playing football, the reader is left spending time wondering what happened and less time thinking about those feelings.

Deborah wrote: "I find Ansell annoying and somewhat self centered."
He seems that way to me too. I do sense a homosexual subtext in the relationship between Ansell and Ricky but it may just be that I'm looking for it since it is Forster.

Brian wrote: "Lori wrote: "Forster's kind of like James, in that in he tends to go off into metaphor, and therefore it's not always clear what's happening..."

Deborah wrote: "I’m having a bit of a hard time fol..."

I also see a homosexual subtext

I assume that the whole college section must be based on Forster's experience. It sounds like it was the first place he felt like he fit in, at least with some people.

I wonder if the physical handicap which sets Rickie apart from most men is sort of an analogy to homosexuality.

That makes sense to me, Robin.

I find this book very readable as well, with a lighter tone than Passage to India.

Robin P wrote: ".I wonder if the physical handicap which sets Rickie apart from most men is sort of an analogy to homosexuality.."

Good point. Another British homosexual author, W. Somerset Maugham, used a similar physical defect a few year later in Of Human Bondage.
While critics consider that such defects are used to reflect a character's 'outsider' status, homosexuality is really just a specific outsider status. The Maugham situation is a bit different, though, as his character's defect also was a reflection of his personal suffering from a severe stammer.

Certainly, the way the book started, with the conversation about the cow, was quite a change from Henry James.

Robin P wrote: "Certainly, the way the book started, with the conversation about the cow, was quite a change from Henry James."

I can't say I've run into many cows, or even scenes at a school, in my Henry James. I was going to check on The Turn of the Screw as it was set in a country house, but found myself typing in The Taming of The Shrew instead, so I'll wait until my brain fog clears.

Rosemarie wrote: "That makes sense to me, Robin.

I find this book very readable as well, with a lighter tone than Passage to India."

I agree there, Rosemarie. Of the Forster books I've read, A Passage to India is my least favourite.

Agnes is, to me, a materialist, and sort of a gold digger. She wouldn't suit Rickie who has literary aspirations. Rickie is timid, and I fear he'll be dominated by the Pembroke siblings.

Rickie really has issues asserting himself and the Pembrokes are just the opposite. Rickie doesn’t stand a chance to choose his path in life since they have stronger wills than he has.