Read Women discussion

Alwynne, Kate and I are planning a buddy read of A Concise Chinese-English Dictionary for Lovers by Xiaolu Guo some time between mid-May and the end of July. We'll circle up in ten days or so here and align on a start date for reading/discussion. All members are welcome to join, so drop a comment here if you'd like to.

Alwynne and Kate, what's your preference in terms of a start date? Would May 28 or 29th work or do you want to pick a date in June? I'm not beholden to any schedule. What works best for you?

Any of those dates would be fine, sorry to be so wishy-washy!

You pick, Carol. I can start any day.

[gosh, were that all the folks in my life were as easy to collaborate with as you both lol]

Let's plan to start Saturday, May 29th then. Unless you prefer to use a schedule, which is fine, just holler, we'll just read along and comment as we go.

Anyone else who wants to join us, please do. See you back here next Saturday!

Perfect Carol will make a note of it. Found my copy so all ready to go.

Sounds great Carol! Looking forward to it!

I might be a bit slow to join in, depending on whether I can focus. My dog stopped eating/drinking a few days ago, at first seemed to be a virus but now on the verge of sepsis. She's on drips for everything under the sun and may be a bowel issue that's treatable if she gets past the crisis, or could be stomach cancer. Either way it's touch and go if she'll make it through the weekend so feeling pretty devastated. Plus the pandemic means that the vet has shut their 24 hour line so can't phone for updates or visit. Carol I hope you've had better news about your dog, it's just so hard to deal with them being so ill.

So sorry to hear about your dog, Alwynne. Thinking of you!

Alwynne wrote: "I might be a bit slow to join in, depending on whether I can focus. My dog stopped eating/drinking a few days ago, at first seemed to be a virus but now on the verge of sepsis. She's on drips for e..."

I am so very sorry to hear this. I hope it’s treatable, but still so stressful for you and sad, all at once.

Our Sasha is much better than two weeks ago, and we don’t have to give her the dreadfully enormous antibiotics any more. But her mobility is a constant challenge and it’s a matter of time before the growth on her gland creates some fatal issue. So lots of all day long assessment. More chronic, less crisis, but waiting for the boom to drop.

In any event it’s so hard to focus mid-crisis.

I was able to start our book during a nail appointment yesterday and got up to around page 70. I like the short chapters, everything about word usage, language and grammar and genders and the like. I thought she did a great job of depicting the loneliness and fear based on American movies and the series broadcast in China. It’s a brisk read and easy to enjoy.

Her moving in with unnamed, much older Brit guy was a bit odd, to me. I couldn’t get a handle on whether she liked him, was attracted to him, just wanted a place to stay, was sexually curious. There didn’t seem to be any clues about her motivation, and I found it a little puzzling that the author wanted us in the dark. Unless the auto fiction aspect means she’s unwilling to reveal her own motivations. What did you think?

Alwynne wrote: "I might be a bit slow to join in, depending on whether I can focus. My dog stopped eating/drinking a few days ago, at first seemed to be a virus but now on the verge of sepsis. She's on drips for e..."
I'm so sorry about your pup's health issues Alwynne. I hope the outcome is not as bad as it sounds. Take care.

Thanks for the thoughts, Izzie's over the crisis but still very weak and they won't know until she's strong enough for surgery what caused the problem. It was just dumb luck she was seen before sepsis was advanced, one of the locum vets just prescribed pills to pick up, it's a holiday weekend so her usual vet's away. Only took her back to be checked because I'm horribly over cautious. So now have to wait until she's strong enough to have surgery and biopsy to find out what's behind the crisis and just hoping it's one of the more treatable options.

Carol glad Sasha is at least stable, and able to have some good days still, sometimes that's the best we can hope for, and I hope it stays that way for a long time.

Will think about your questions as I start the novel.

Hi Carol,
I am really enjoying this book so far. I am finding the dictionary format unique and I think it is an interesting way of showing how Z’s fluency and comfort with English is growing. As for the relationship with themuch older man, it is odd, but my take on it is that Z feels very alone and is maybe a bit desperate for intimacy. She mentions that her mother always told her she was ugly, and she’s only 23 years old, so probably hasn’t had the time to develop a sense of self, so that she is up for any and all forms of male attention. Even given that though, their relationship does seem to progress rather quickly.

I think it’s also worth noting that this older man takes it upon himself to correct and improve her English. I think that sometimes, language learning fosters intimacy in unexpected ways. The teacher you have can influence your “persona” or at least the way you communicate in your second language. I have learned 3 languages in my life, and found that intimacy with the “teacher” made me a lot more fluent faster! 😊

I have gotten a little further in this, and it really seems like Z’s feelings for this man are unrequited. He wants sex, she wants to know everything about him, and reads his diary where she discovers that he has had gay relationships. I really think she is desperate for companionship.

Kate wrote: "I have gotten a little further in this, and it really seems like Z’s feelings for this man are unrequited. He wants sex, she wants to know everything about him, and reads his diary where she discov..."

Yikes! I’ll catch up tonight. I was trying to prioritize an in-person book club read for a meetup tomorrow but I’m unlikely to finish in time and I’m so looking forward to getting back to this novel.

Sorry to give that away!

Kate wrote: "Sorry to give that away!"

No, not at all. I’m not spoiler-averse; in fact it adds to my experience sharing a long the way. Thank u!

I found an interview online where Xiaolu talks about the basis for the novel, she's clearly really drawn to Barthes A Lover's Discourse: Fragments because it influenced this book and another of her novels. I can see why, although it's a while since I read it, there's something very compelling about Barthes's take on the communication or miscommunication between lovers, and on intimacy and those small recurring events such as waiting for a phone call.

https://openlearn.medium.com/writing-...

I'm not very far along yet, dashing up and down to visit my dog in the vet hospital every day, and a bit washed out. One thing that struck me is how many books I've read about people coming to England for the first time and finding it nothing like the image commonly projected, and immediately experiencing a sense of alienation and isolation - similar scenes in Small Island, Second Class Citizen. I wasn't sure about Xiaolu's choice to use fragmented English in the first sections, but I did think she was very convincing in terms of establishing her character's emotional states.

Yes, I find the writing very unique and the dictionary entries are an interesting vehicle through which to discuss the immigrant experience. Sorry to hear your dog is still not well.

Thanks Kate, she improved then massively deteriorated. She had exploratory surgery and now on a new treatment regime, the vet has given a deadline of Weds, if she's very much better can continue to treat if not...basically she's too weak to withstand much more. So I'm hoping for the best but not expecting it. She's never been away before, so visiting gives her a couple of hours to lie outside and get a break from being locked up. And it's hard to think about much else at the moment.

Alwynne wrote: "I'm not very far along yet, dashing up and down to visit my dog in the vet hospital every day, and a bit washed out. One thing that struck me is how many books I've read about people coming to Engl..."

egad, that must be exhausting, indeed. i'm so sorry.

we finished watching the 6-episode series, River, last evening, from 2015, which last couple of episodes played out the theme of how not welcoming London to immigrants, at least for the majority of newcomers. I suspect the same is true of any major city, but I really felt it and thought of this book. That sense of never fitting in, of different-ness, of being assumed to be something other than whom one is. Even if one makes it through the administrative and legal hurdles, the sense of isolation and rejection lingers

Alwynne wrote: "Thanks Kate, she improved then massively deteriorated. She had exploratory surgery and now on a new treatment regime, the vet has given a deadline of Weds, if she's very much better can continue to..."

Alwynne - *hugs*

RIVER is a great show. There are so many wonderful British detective series on Netflix.

Thanks Carol, will keep River in mind Kate, currently watching 'Call My Agent' also on Netflix which is excellent plus the subtitles make it easier to focus on it, so works better right now.

And yes Carol, in her interviews she says she based a lot on her own experiences and she's very effective in communicating that. But I also wondered if displacement is part of what she's interested in, in general. In Village of Stone aside from its other themes, there's a lot about transitioning from rural life in China to Beijing and the process of trying to find ways to suit/conform to the new aspirations of the country - part of the rationale behind Z being sent to learn English.

I'm finding the section on Hackney and the artist's habits inadvertently amusing, I know the area well and before it became very expensive - still an area with huge inequalities, large council estates with a lot of low-income residents cheek by jowl with very wealthy homeowners. But the sculptor would have been one of the artist/writers etc who moved there when it was cheap and paved the way for the later influx of gentrifiers. So his lifestyle, beliefs, the way he lives reminds me of groups of people I knew who lived in Hackney in squats etc. And the portrayal of the gap between his culture and Z's is very convincing. I like the detail on language and culture, although it's a bit superficial at times, and also on different ideas of what intimacy/family might mean in practice. The sections I found least enjoyable were some of the ones on sex, the terms like 'garden' came across as a bit too coy, a little awkward but not sure if Z is translating Chinese terms in a literal way or if Xiaolou just not very strong on writing about sex. Also wasn't sure what to make of the peepshow visit. And I would be interested now to read her later novel that seems to be revisiting/refining aspects of this one. Also what did people make of her references to race? Hackney has large Jewish communities and large black communities, most of the artists who moved into the area and the overwhelming majority of the more recent, wealthy groups are white. I noticed that Z often links the black people she sees with fear, and that made sense in that China isn't very diverse and there's a lot of direct/indirect racism towards black and South Asian people.

Kate wrote: "I have gotten a little further in this, and it really seems like Z’s feelings for this man are unrequited. He wants sex, she wants to know everything about him, and reads his diary where she discov..."

I agree with you Kate I think it's a mixture of happenstance and sexual attraction, coupled with a longing for companionship and stability. I'm not sure that he's not invested, he fits the kind of man that I mentioned before. A lot of the veggie, Hackney artist types of his generation were also very invested in sexual experimentation, questioning boundaries, and obsessed with freedom/independence. He obviously has a similar need for a companion or wouldn't have moved her into his home so quickly but unlike her he's part of a subculture that's more confused/less clear-cut about what that means in terms of commitment etc What she sees as intimacy, he sees as intrusive, stifling. Although his actual behaviour is not dissimilar from hers at least in these early stages. There's also the creepier side and the power dynamic. A much older guy taking it on himself to take up with a young, isolated woman. Also wondered how much her being Chinese factors in? There is a sense in which some English men have a fetish around Asian women, and women who are wholly dependent on them. I've come across a few men like this who only date 'foreign' women, one who only dates Japanese women etc And encountered them myself. And it's unclear if he fits into this category. I have to say I find him very creepy.

I've finished this now but I found the later sections when Z is away less than satisfying, and I'm not sure that they seemed to add more to the narrative other than stringing it out. Is that unfair?

I don’t think so, really. I also found the trip section weird, and things went downhill from there as far as their relationship.

I really liked the way Z talks about Chinese culture and the differences between her understanding of love and family and what she observes about the English. Although Z's ideas about English culture seem to stem from her one relationship so they're quite unbalanced in relation to her representation of China - or are we meant to think her depiction of China may also be too broad in its assumptions? The artist is quite annoying, the American equivalent would, I think, be Adam Driver's character in 'Girls' only older and less hip, not sure if there's a Canadian version?!

Alwynne wrote: "I'm finding the section on Hackney and the artist's habits inadvertently amusing, I know the area well and before it became very expensive - still an area with huge inequalities, large council esta..."

This is so interesting and, yes, the sex-related descriptions were often so awkward.

Her response to persons of a different race, for as far as I've read, were couched in, my parents told me to avoid X or Y, so I was willing to buy that she was presenting those ideas as baseless bias, commonly expressed by immigrants' parents from whatever the country of origin is, assuming the country of origin is predominately white or Asian. But I haven't finished.

I started the book today while at the waiting room so I'm not too far along. And I stopped reading the comments after June 1 to avoid more spoilers.

After reading two Asian American memoirs for AAPI Heritage Month in May, I became curious about the immigrant experience in the UK after our discussion for Minor Feelings: An Asian American Reckoning.

Guo chose an interesting format. I'm enjoying her observations between Chinese and English and what she infers as the insights into the two cultures - such as the English language is very "I" oriented compared with Chinese expression. And I found her beliefs and reactions about other peoples sadly humorous - not only in the clash of televised representations with reality but in her wholesale parroting of her parents' biases.

Given that she's 23 at the onset, this story was set in 2003. And I'm trying to remember whether London was very different nearly 20 years ago. It certainly would have been a post 9/11 world if she had been in the US.

I had recently listened to a podcast that discusses non native English speakers -
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/21/989477....

Heather Hansen made an interesting point about how the number of non native English speakers vastly exceeds that of native speakers in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, etc. Because of that disparity, Hansen suggested that more acceptance of "Bad English" should become the norm.

I had gotten the impression that she had become "Z" not because she had given herself that nickname but because everyone else did not even try to pronounce her last name and dubbed her accordingly.

There was also that birthday party vignette with two classmates. The three were from three different Asian (I was uncomfortable with her use of "oriental") countries and communicated in the common foreign language. BTW, I found this chapter hilarious due to her gift of the "cucumber."

Her relationship progression does seem very fast to me. I agree with Kate that Zhang's loneliness was a motivator.

I am always alone, talking in my notebook, or wandering here and there like invisible ghost.

Maybe I want find man can love me. A man in this country save me, take me, adopt me, be my family, be my home.

In that relationship, she totally immerses herself in the model she's familiar with at home -> she takes over the domestic work. So although she accepts the sexual freedom (ie. decadence) of the West, we don't see a "feminist" awakening in Zhang. She's emotionally and financially dependent upon him, as it didn't sound as though she contributed to household expenses.

The sex aspects were either "coy" as Alwynne described or an attempt to be poetical. Either way, that didn't work as well as her other descriptions as she's quite blunt. And I thought that going to the peep show was a huge departure from her self-presentation as an easily frightened young woman. In that sense, there's a lack of smooth progression - from new immigrant scared of other races to going to peep show to moving in with the sculptor in the space of a month or two.

I'm not familiar with this Hackney persona but I can imagine it. No, we don't know how much Asian women fetishization is going on during her encounters with men as she did seem to have quite a lot in Europe (view spoiler)[ oh man, the rape wasn't unexpected (hide spoiler)]. I agree that there's a weird power dynamic given their age and experience gap. What's interesting is that there is a kernel of commonality in their backgrounds as he also came from a farming family. He represents the love of nature and the distress from living in an urbanized setting. She however embraces urbanization given where she resides upon returning to China. I would have liked more about her life in the "afterwards" section.

Her 5 weeks in Europe felt like a wasted opportunity. I say this as someone who envies that freedom of movement that I've lost because of the pandemic. It was a wasted opportunity because her motivation was to do homework assigned by him. She had no interest in the other countries - didn't know what to be curious about and wasn't curious about them. That section goes off in a blur, as she obeyed him just as she acceded to her parents' desire to live abroad for a year in order to learn English.

I enjoyed this enough to want to read her memoir Nine Continents: A Memoir in and Out of China.


My review - www.Goodreads.com/review/show/4058514236

Do you think that sense of her doing what she was told by the sculptor, that you compared to her parents, is related? It must be hard to go from having your every move scripted to working out how to live on your own terms? Maybe that was part of the attraction, a substitute for family and for someone else to shape her life?

Alwynne wrote: "Do you think that sense of her doing what she was told by the sculptor, that you compared to her parents, is related? It must be hard to go from having your every move scripted to working out how t..."

Yes, I think they're related. In China, as an unmarried woman, she was probably still living with her parents and very much under her mother's heavy hand. Also given the lower emphasis on individuals in China, her loneliness (the sense of being unmoored) drove her to replicate that family feel in the UK by going into a relationship with the Brit sculptor. Although lovers, he fulfills a pseudo-parental role - provides a place to live and English instruction and is an authority figures she tries to please even as she demands greater emotional intimacy from him.

I think that it was luck of the draw for them to be together. He was open to her (hopefully not the Asian women fetish), wanted sex, and mistakenly issued a too generous invitation to a non-native speaker desperate for companionship. Was it his affection (not love) or compassion for her that he didn't try to end their relationship and kick her out? He certainly wasn't happy with her snooping through his diaries in April. Or did he appreciate her domesticity plus the readily available sex? This was not going to be a permanent relationship, even if she had a different immigrant status.

In Minor Feelings, Hong mentioned that there can be a story in what's left unsaid. I think that concept is applicable to Guo's novel as well. Even though I said that it didn't feel like a smooth progression in her actions, I think that this required a reading between the lines to figure out her mental processes. And this would be determined by the individual reader as we bring our past experiences to bear on any interpretation of human drama.

Alwynne wrote: "I noticed that Z often links the black people she sees with fear, and that made sense in that China isn't very diverse and there's a lot of direct/indirect racism towards black and South Asian people."

There's a lot to unpack here. China actually recognizes about 50 ethnic groups within their population. But these ethnic groups are the minority as they comprise not even 10 % of the total population in China. We can also see from the prolonged and historic treatment of the Uyghurs, one of their larger ethnic groups, that modern China does not tolerate differences very well.

There's the element of colorism on top of racism. People with darker skin tones (even within the predominant ethnicity, which is Han) were looked down upon as a socioeconomic class - ie. only farming peasants and manual laborers would have tanned skin. This bias would then be magnified against South Asians and black people because of the negative stereotypes from television, film, and news coverage. China heavily censors what its population is allowed to see and to read. They would be keen to play up the negative racial stories that crop up in western democracies as part of their political management.

Thanks, that's very comprehensive, I was actually aware of that, I spent many years working in Hong Kong as well as with people from the Mainland, I'm also not white, so very conscious of how racism in that sphere works

Alwynne wrote: "Thanks, that's very comprehensive, I was actually aware of that, I spent many years working in Hong Kong as well as with people from the Mainland, I'm also not white, so very conscious of how racis..."

Given your life experiences, you probably know or recognize more of the nuances than many non-Chinese people.

We don't have enough information on the sculptor's motivations. We don't know if he had chosen other Chinese or Asian women before. His current friends seemed to be a part of the LGBTQ and white communities. But given his lack of questioning her (such as about the Chinese medicine and Qi), I don't believe that he had a fetish. Given the number of encounters she had in Europe, I'm also wondering if she just emitted a vibe of vulnerability that just called out to the men or if she was more physically attractive than what her mom had led her to believe.

I finished about a week ago and have been since distilling my thoughts. I'm not there yet, but my bottom line is that I'm in the minority in that I adored this book and Z, and even turned the corner on the BF by the end. I last posted around page 75 prior to her European trip, and - at that point - I wasn't getting sufficient insight into her choices and motivations to find them authentic. It's intriguing to me that many reviewers have the opposite experience in that they are all in with the first part and perceive a drop in momentum when she starts traveling.

I loved:
the structure of one word plus definition per chapter. As with an epistolary novel, the short chapters delivered the perception of fast pacing and the defined terms framed what otherwise might have been experienced as unrelated anecdotes. I was impressed at the author's ability to tell this story in a manner that seemed fresh as opposed to well-trod, and also avoided pages upon pages up in our protagonist's head.

Z. She brought youth's willingness to charge ahead impulsively with limitless confidence with a strong sense of "the world (and relationships) is/are supposed to work like X", and had the resilience not to implode when consequences and individuals don't align with expectations. I loved her resilience. I empathized with her loneliness and with the artificial but very real deadline of her visa expiring. Her choices in terms of trusting unknown men come across as really, really risky to my 59-year old 2021 eyes, and I am very glad that the author didn't "punish" her in the novel, for the most part, for those choices. 99.9% of American novelists would have been unable to resist the darkness.

the particular manner in which Z's relationship with the BF ends. It came across authentic to me, from their specific conversations to the tension between caring deeply for someone and still realizing and accepting that splitting up is the only answer when their world view and/or life goals don't actually align with yours.

To one point above, she only did what she was told because she wanted to. I didn't sense any feeling of her being stuck or commanded against her will. If she hadn't wanted to make the trip, she wouldn't have. She accepted his recommendation of an approach or a path under the heading of, "he has some wisdom having been around the block so maybe he is right about this," but not because she didn't own her own autonomy to make a choice. it wasn't obedience.

Thanks Carol that's really interesting, I particularly like what you said about her not being punished for her sexual freedom, it's a really good point. I worried about her safety constantly in that section, and I think you're right in so many novels women aren't allowed to explore sex in ways that are considered perfectly fine for men, and when they do bad things happen. So I wonder if part of my worry is related to what I've been set up to expect. And it is really refreshing that that wasn't the case here.

Alwynne wrote: "Thanks Carol that's really interesting, I particularly like what you said about her not being punished for her sexual freedom, it's a really good point. I worried about her safety constantly in tha..."

We have been set up. Every movie. Every book. We assess risk of assault at 100% and feel foolish for having risked it against such odds. Every culture isn’t like this. I found it freeing to enter her mind, pushing against the weight of my story expectations.

Hmm, interesting. When I had described her Europe trip, I said "obeyed" but I didn't mean that it was at that point on the behavior gradient of "blind obedience" like in the military or under her authoritarian parents. It just wasn't her idea, and I sensed a disintinct lack of enthusiasm in the venture - do it because she respects her much older BF's worldview that it would be good to do.

And yes, females have "been set up" and are influenced to feel foolish for taking the risks. We really do see her blossoming as a risk taker during the progression of her year. I would have liked a bit more at the end about her life in Beijing.

Woman Reading wrote: "Hmm, interesting. When I had described her Europe trip, I said "obeyed" but I didn't mean that it was at that point on the behavior gradient of "blind obedience" like in the military or under her a..."

I would have liked that, too, WR - to hear about what she does next when she returns.