Dickensians! discussion

Here is the thread for our side read, to accompany our Summer 2021 short group reads. It is The Life of Charles Dickens : Volume II by John Forster.

Any edition of this 3 part biography by Charles Dickens's friend and mentor John Forster is fine. The one I have linked to is an illustrated version on kindle.

I hope we all enjoy the read, which should cast new light on many of the stories we know by Charles Dickens, in particular his middle period.

The read stays current at least through June and July, as it did last year. For those who missed out on the first part, the thread for that is now temporarily back in our current reads folder. Please feel free to add more comments on part 1 there. Thanks!

This second volume covers the years 1842 to 1852. It begins after the first 24 chapters, with Charles Dickens's return for America. The first chapter is entitled "American Notes".

***Please be aware that this volume contains spoilers for Martin Chuzzlewit, David Copperfield, Dombey and Son, and all 5 Christmas books.

It might be an idea to miss out the relevant chapters if you don't know these books! John Forster does helpfully list the content of each chapter as it begins.

Has anyone begun this side read yet?

I have read a couple of chapters.
It's been awhile since I read Volume 1 and was surprised at how friendly and relaxed this is reading. I remember more dryness and dust. LOL.

I did not know that Dickens was friends with Longfellow, and what seems a good friendship. That is a fun fact to know.

Dickens is being remembered by his friend, John Forster, as a fun loving man. I like this picture of Dickens. A man who enjoyed life, around any hardships and problems that it gave him. He doesn't seem to have lost sight of the lighter side of existence at any time.

I really enjoyed reading about his extended walking trip to Cornwall with his friends. Such a fun time of camaraderie and exploration.

I have also just begun and feeling right at home with Mr. Forster.

Please feel free to add your thoughts as you go. This is an open side read lasting all summer :)

The discussion about the first volume is really interesting LINK HERE.

I'm reminded of how dry John Forster's writing is. LOL.

I really like when he talks about Dickens' life, his activities and his interests, as well as their friendship & other friends who spend time with them. It's a nice picture of a life.

When he starts to write about the novels being written, it becomes dry, I find. He rambled on and on about Martin Chuzzlewit. Some interesting titbits and, perhaps if I'd read the book already, the sections on the novel would have been interesting. However, not having read Martin Chuzzlewit, this entire section wasn't really of interest to me.

I did enjoy the story of The Christmas Carol. It seems to have been a magical story from the moment it was published.
Dickens was, sadly, let down by the profits but a lot of that had to do with the high end product that he supplied the public with for their money. The public got a wonderful volume for the price. They must have felt very special

Petra wrote: "I'm reminded of how dry John Forster's writing is. LOL..."

I think several of us feel like that Petra! I really sit up when he includes parts of the personal letters to him from Charles Dickens. And actually I did sort of enjoy the American parts. It's like reading the expurgated version of American Notes For General Circulation i.e. all the bits Charles Dickens thought it was better to miss out!

But yes, I agree, interesting all this is in giving us a fuller picture, it's not a patch on reading the great man himself :) I'm reading it in bits and pieces, in between other reads.

Dickens seems to have gotten thoroughly and totally immersed in the writing of The Chimes. It completely absorbed him.
I enjoyed this story of the writing of the tale. Dickens was very invested in Christmas.

I've never read The Chimes and will have to make a point of reading it this coming Christmas.


What is coming across very clearly in this work is the depth of the friendship between John Forster and Charles Dickens.
Forster knew Dickens well. He knew his innermost thoughts, ideas and morals. I suspect that Dickens knew Forster just as well. These men were true comrades and friends.

We have just one read planned for Christmas so far Petra. I wonder if we should have more ... If so, would you be interested in leading The Chimes? No pressure - I know how much work you have just done for us! But you will have a unique insight right now :)

LOL....I'm not sure about insight, Jean. I'm just enthused and curious because of Dickens' enthusiasm for the story. He really got involved with it while writing.

When were you thinking of having the Christmas reads? I would certainly try to fit this in for the group, if there's interest.

Petra wrote: "When were you thinking of having the Christmas reads? I would certainly try to fit this in for the group, if there's interest ..."

YAY - Thank you :) All through December, and if you do lead "The Chimes: A Goblin Story of Some Bells that Rang an Old Year Out and a New Year In", then part way into January too (because of the title and theme!)

It would be ideal, because we read the first novella A Christmas Carol last year, and this is the second :)

We can sort out details through messaging, especially if this is not convenient :)

Sounds like a good plan, Jean.

I hadn't heard the full title before. This makes it an even more interesting story in my imagination.

I love that title and will definitely plan to read it. I don’t believe I have read it before.

Excellent! Thank you very much Petra - again.

Sue I hope lots of others feel that way too. It's a good one for that time of year, and has a bit of everything :)

We'll read the third part of this next year some time, although I suspect some of you have either steamed through it all - or ground to a halt somewhere in the first two parts (judging by this thread, anyway). I'll move this to the permanent side reads folder soon, ready for our end of year reads.

“The life of John Forster with occasional anecdotes to Charles Dickens”. So we know Wilkie Collins didn’t think much about Forster’s ‘Life’. He wasn’t alone, contemporaries were saying that ‘Life’ lacks, well, ‘life’. It went some way in portraying Dickens as an author, but nowhere in portraying Dickens the man. Others thought it full of anecdotes of people who said they new Dickens from school, or saw him once buy a periodical etc, and others thought it laborious with dates, making it fail in most of the essential elements as a biography.

Well, possibly, but for me it’s main failure is that it appears to have been written by a cheerleader rather than a biographer.

It’s a horrible and old fashioned cliche, I know, but "behind every good man blah blah … ", and there’s enough sound evidence to show Kate was a good women, wife and mother. But you’d never guess it reading Forster’s ‘Life’

Forster refers to Kate independently, that is, not directly quoting Dickens, about maybe a dozen or so times - and it’s just about always as ‘Mrs Dickens’ with a somewhat tentative connection to being the wife and mother of the children of Dickens. There’s not even a description of her by him - he seems to have left that bit up to the Americans!

And when he does quote Dickens' notes about Kate, it's always Kate the burden - yet there's scores of positive references about Kate in Dickens' letters, many of them addressed to Forster himself. Yet.

Kate “cries dismally if I mention the subject.” She’s always ‘dismally’ crying of America - she even has a ‘face-ache’ over it

Though occasionally she merely ‘weeps’, “The advantages of going, however, appear by steady looking-at so great, that I have come to persuade myself it is a matter of imperative necessity. Kate weeps whenever it is spoken of.”

Kate “having so bad a sore throat that she was obliged to keep her bed.” There’s about 4-5 or so other ailments where she’s obliged to keep her bed

When Dickens is about to be dragged along to the Speaker of the House of Assembly’s residence, they will have a carriage and his wife sent down for Kate, “who is laid up with a hideously swollen face.”

“the journey one that would play the very devil with Kate” On journeys she was always falling, tripping, crashing and scraping her knees and shins - which seemed to annoy Dickens

Later he says: “ I say nothing of Kate's troubles--but you recollect her propensity? An allusion to Her falling and tripping over all the time …

Kate was inconveniently pregnant during Oliver, "I was thinking about Oliver till dinner-time yesterday," Forster quotes Dickens, "and, just as I had fallen upon him tooth and nail, was called away to sit with Kate.”

After acknowledging Macreedy’s help regarding arrangements for the American trip, he says of his burden: “The instant I have wrung a reluctant consent from Kate, I shall take our joint passage in the mail-packet for next January”

“The reins immediately became entangled in the wheels, and away went the pony down the hill madly, with Kate inside rending the Isle of Thanet with her screams”

He even cancels an engagement on her behalf, as “Kate's face being horribly bad,” he says, “I determined to give her a rest here; and accordingly wrote to get rid of my engagement at New Haven, on that plea”

“My rooms had been ordered for a week, but, in consequence of Kate's illness, only Mr. Q. and the luggage had gone on.”

“ We conveyed Kate up a rocky pass to go and see the island of the Lady of the Lake, but she gave in after the first five minutes”

At Niagara Falls Dickens changes his clothes, and “taking Kate with me, and hurried to the Horse-shoe Fall”, and then bangs on about Mary’s ghost, forgetting all about his real, living wife


This is all the more shameful because there was a ‘Forster-Catherine’ life before the Dickens’ separation, where they appear to know one another intimately, and there’s plenty of letters from Dickens supporting this, even as late as 1856 when Dickens writes (albeit to Georgina):

“Tell Catherine that I have the most prodigious, overwhelming, crushing, astounding, blinding, deafening, pulverizing, scarifying secret of which Forster is the hero, imaginable by the united efforts of the whole British population” (Forster's pending wedding)

My goodness, Sean, you have found so many examples! Thank you.

I've always thought it must have been very hard for John Forster. Not only was he fully aware of the tension between the couple, but he felt a duty - and actually wanted - to portray his friend in as good a light as possible.

As you say, there was no blame attached to Kate at all, from all accounts, and in the early days of their marriage "Sir Jonas and Lady Maria Clutterbuck" shared much happiness. They both had the same sense of fun, and she was happy to accompany him anywhere. But by the time of this middle part of John Forster's The Life of Charles Dickens, disenchantment had certainly set in from Charles's point of view. Their constant rowing was known to his friends, and one waspishly joked that they might as well argue in Italy as anywhere else, in 1844.

We can interpret the irritable comments by Charles on his wife's indispositions as just that, remembering how many children they already had. It is easy for us to see how tired she must have been, and incapable of keeping up with such a driven man as her husband was. So we can see the cracks even here (before any other female comes on the scene), and wonder how John Forster will be able to stay loyal to his friend, and also represent the facts honestly.

He does it, of course by omission. Not so much perhaps in this middle section, but certainly later.

Some may consider this a whitewash, but it is so close in time to when Charles Dickens was alive, that it is understandable. I think he did a good job, as he included so many interesting details which are unique to this biography, such as the anecdotes of people who said they knew him from school, as you say. That is part of its charm, isn't it? And we can use our common sense to fill in the blanks about Kate.

To me, there's an element of sour grapes about such critics - and perhaps a little envy too? Nobody else occupied the same privileged position as John Forster. It's a shame they can't accept this biography for what it is. The world would be a sorrier place without it ... and there are many biographies of Charles Dickens which would not be missed.

Bionic Jean wrote: "We'll read the third part of this next year some time, although I suspect some of you have either steamed through it all - or ground to a halt somewhere in the first two parts (judging by this thre..."

Jean, while I've hit a stall in reading this, I do plan on continuing. I haven't been reading much of anything lately but this one is still high on my list for when I pick a book up again.

That's good to know! Thank you for saying, Petra :)

I read Vol 2 and Vol 3 back to back last month. They run together a bit in my mind, and Forster did a bit of time jogging back and forth in both volumes. But I don't think anything I say will be a spoiler.

I felt Forster's style became more comfortable in Vol 2. I wonder if beginning the biography was difficult for him, recalling so far back in time to when he and Dickens met. Maybe the loss of Dickens felt fresh again. As I got further into Vol 2 and Vol 3, I kept thinking how reading this biography felt like sitting by the fire with Forster, listening to him tell stories from Dickens' life, with the letters by his side, pulling one out as it fit with the story, and passing it to me to read.

What stood out to me was that Forster didn't withhold criticism of Dickens' personal life or his works. If Forster felt one of Dickens' novels wasn't as good as it could have been, Forster said so - very respectfully of course. If Forster disagreed with how Dickens chose to handle a personal situation (I'm thinking specifically of the letter Dickens released to the papers after his split from Catherine), Forster said he disagreed. But whatever Dickens did, whether Forster thought it was the best course or not, Forster never wavered in his commitment to Dickens. He loved, respected, supported, and esteemed Dickens to the very end. Theirs was a true friendship, and each was blessed to have the other.

I can't imagine what Dickens' life would have been like without the steadying influence of Forster. Dickens sought Forster's opinion in every area of his life, and I found it interesting how much Dickens valued Forster's input in his writing. I recall one occasion where Dickens was out of the country and posted installments of his current work to Forster. Dickens told him if something needed to be changed or rewritten, for Forster to do so.

Forster did address the separation of Dickens and his wife. But he made it clear he would only speak about what Dickens had made known to the public, because that's all the public needed to know. I respect that. Forster never mentioned Ellen Ternan - the only place her name is given is (view spoiler)[in Dickens' will, which is included at the end of Vol 3. (hide spoiler)]

Anyone feeling bogged down with Forster's style, keep plugging away - it's so worth it.

A couple of bits I especially loved -

In a note from Dickens to Forster -
Why it's the warmest, most genial, most intensely bland, delicious, growing, springy, songster-of-the-grovy, bursting-forth-of-the-buddy, day as ever was.

In a note from Dickens to Forster -
I sit down between whiles to think of a new story, and, as it begins to grow, such a torment of a desire to be anywhere but where I am; and to be going I don't know where, I don't know why, takes hold of me, that it is like being driven away.

Cozy_Pug wrote: "I can't imagine what Dickens' life would have been like without the steadying influence of Forster ..."

This is a lovely post! Thank you Cozy_Pug. And how very true that is.

I enjoyed your insightful comments, Cozy Pug. I've got the book, and this is a good reminder to try to slip it into my pile of books in the coming months.

"....and that I believed I had a strong perception of character and oddity, and a natural power of reproducing in my own person what I observed in others"

- from a letter to John Forster describing the contents of another letter that Dickens wrote to a stage manager at Covent garden when he was 20 years old.

I chuckled. Had Dickens written a book by then? I can't recall. But, he certainly hit the nail on the head about his "strong perception of character and oddity".

I wrote too soon....

I just read on. Dickens was given a chance to audition for the stage but got ill with a bad cold and missed this opportunity. By the next season, when he could audition again, he'd started writing for the newspapers, which lead to his writing career.
We came close to not having any Dickens books! Had he gone into theatre, he may not have turned to writing. That would have been our loss.

Ah.....the finger of fate and chance. We got lucky this time.

It's about time we read the third section too! Maybe about half way through Bleak House would be a good start date.

I may not be finished Volume 2 by then. LOL!

......I'll just be behind (again). Hahaha.....
It's a good idea to continue with Volume 3.

Given how we are all at different points, it's probably best to not set it in stone! I just need a date for the GR message - but can open the thread any time really :)

I am also behind but still picking my way through this one, Petra. It really makes you cringe to think Dickens might never have written but for a cold. Still, I think God had a purpose for Dickens and it wasn't fulfilled by being on stage, regardless of how capable he might have been doing that.

Sara wrote: "I am also behind but still picking my way through this one, Petra. It really makes you cringe to think Dickens might never have written but for a cold. Still, I think God had a purpose for Dickens ..."

Agreed!

I think Dickens had God-given talents in both writing and performing. He used his performance talents in his public readings - which I would love to have seen, can you imagine seeing Dickens in person, reading his own stories? Wow!

Dickens did act in, organize, manage various amateur theatricals during his life. I think he had a need to perform and a need for the adoration/adulation he received from audiences when he performed, whether through acting or public readings.

So he still was able to do both, but I'm enormously thankful for that life-altering cold!

As am I, Cozy_Pug and Sara! Imagine if he hadn't gotten that cold.

I think, too, that he could have acted and written in his lifetime, but had the emphasis been on acting, some of his novels wouldn't have been written. He had such great stories in him to tell.

I agree, Petra. He might have written, but not with the kind of fervor we see. He never went at anything halfheartedly.

I bet that, if he were still alive today (at 210! LOL!), that he would still be writing whole-heartedly and bringing to life great stories and characters. I don't think his story well would ever run dry.

Petra wrote: ""....and that I believed I had a strong perception of character and oddity, and a natural power of reproducing in my own person what I observed in others"

Agreed

I like how Dickens got his start on Dombey and Son.

He was in Switzerland, with his family.
John Forster quotes from a letter:
"......By the way, as I was unpacking the big box I took hold of book, and said, "Now, whatever passage my thumb rests on, I shall take as having reference to my work". It was Tristam Shandy, and opened at these words, 'What a work it is likely to turn out! Let us begin it!'. "

Dickens loved seeing omens in small actions. It rather shows a love of mystery and a belief in the supernatural, which we know he was interested in.
Fun detail, I thought.

It was also mentioned that once he was settled in Switzerland, he started his evening walks of 8-10 miles!

I started to wonder about the time this must have taken each day. I walk at a pace of around 5 kilometers (3 miles) an hour. This would be 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours of walking daily to reach Dickens' mileage.
He must have been an awfully fast walker to be able to find the time for this length of walk every day. Or he spent a number of hours each day walking.
With writing, his family, entertaining, visiting, etc, where did he find the time each day?! He was a very energetic man.
It's really quite interesting to think about how much he did in his lifetime, in all aspects.

Petra isn't that a great bit about Dickens beginning Dombey? I loved that so much!

Dickens was definitely a mighty walker. I got the impression from one of the biographies I read on him that he wasn't a great sleeper, insomnia, couldn't settle his mind down when he went to bed. That would give him extra time for writing and walking. Jean has said several times that Dickens burned out too soon because of the intensity with which he lived. I totally agree, and it breaks my heart because I would love to have had more stories from him, or at least if he'd had time to complete the last story :(

Cozy_Pug, I love this detail about Dombey & its start.

Dickens did burn out too early. He was a dynamo of energy. It's a real shame, for himself I mean. He seemed to love Life and would have enjoyed more of it, I think. He was fascinated with so much.

I also would have liked him to finish The Mystery of Edwin Drood.

Petra wrote: "Cozy_Pug, I love this detail about Dombey & its start.

Dickens did burn out too early. He was a dynamo of energy. It's a real shame, for himself I mean. He seemed to love Life and would have enjo..."

Yes, you're absolutely right. I'm thinking of Dickens' too-short life from selfish reasons - I wish he'd had more time to write more books and stories. But your point is so sweet - Dickens did have a zest for life and experiences and it's sad he didn't have time to do more of the things he loved. He was only 58 when he passed - but the more I read about his life, it feels like he lived twice that long because he packed so much into his 58 years.

Agree. Some people live to be 100 and never live at all, some only live a short time (JFK always comes to my mind) and yet live every minute of their time. Dickens was one of those who got everything there was to get out of the time he was given. I keep thinking heaven has a library and there are Dickens' there that we know nothing of--yet.

What a wonderful thought, Sara.

Sara, that's a lovely thought.
Perhaps he'll read us one, one day, as we sit in this Heavenly library.

(is that presumptuous of me to presume we'll get there?!!! LOL!)

Nice to think all our best authors are up there still writing and that we will have eternity to read their work. Of course we will get there, Petra! :o)

I hope Dickens does his live readings in Heaven - how I wish sound recordings had been discovered in his lifetime.

This middle volume contains spoilers for Martin Chuzzlewit, David Copperfield and Dombey and Son.

If you've recently completed it, and there are any more spoilers to warn readers of, (e.g. novellas) can you please say and I'll add the details to comment 2.

Since there are spoilers for Bleak House in the 3rd volume, our official start date for the side read will be delayed until afterwards. But this biography by John Forster is well worth reading. It includes pieces by him, written as newsy and candid letters to John Forster, which are only found here.

New members - please do give it a try, and comment on the text of these first two volumes. Thanks!

Bionic Jean wrote: "This middle volume contains spoilers for Martin Chuzzlewit, David Copperfield and Dombey and Son.

If you've recently completed it, and there are any more spo..."

There's mention of The Haunted Man and some Christmas books.

Cozy_Pug - The Haunted Man and the Ghost's Bargain of 1848 is the final Christmas book out of the 5 he wrote (as you probably know). Do you mean some Christmas stories, or the 4 earlier Christmas books?

Don't worry if you can't remember though.

Jean, yes, the earlier Christmas stories. I haven't read the entire Volume II yet. I'm at the section where the third Christmas story is starting to be mentioned as an idea. As Dickens writes to Forster (when he begins the writing), there will most likely be spoilers of the story. He did for the other two. :D

Thanks Petra! I don't know why I can't remember this - it wasn't that long ago. I obviously need to read it again.

So that's A Christmas Tree,What Christmas Is as We Grow Older and The Poor Relations Story?

Jean, I meant The Cricket on the Hearth. Sorry. I should have mentioned the name.

He earlier had spoilers about The Chimes